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Starting a new system from scratch


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1 hour ago, plonkster said:

Honestly don't quite know why people do it. Must be an image thing. Those things are really overpriced for what you get (and this is coming from boy blue here). I feel the same way about Siemens fridge/freezers as well, double the cost of the Bosch, but is it really that much better? :-)

I doubt it,

My previous fridge-freezer was a Bosch which lasted me 14 years before the wife decided its time for a double-door fridge, and I didn't even service it once. Brother has it now as a backup fridge, and its still going strong he says (so its 15 yo now)

 

-G-

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hi guys

just my 2c worth

a lot of people talk grid tied but if you are interested in that then one should factor in a gti limiter as house loads always fluctuate and there are only a few available(that I know of ) that are limiter friendly and come at a price . fronius and kaco  can work with microcare limiter . I think sola log  and the Hauwei also make a good combo.

I read up on a guy that buys smaller 600w gti , but has a couple of them ,and then timers them to coincide and  offset  his devices like when  pool pumps  come on

I have the infini v series with gti capability that has self consumption mode .  this to me is the best of both as you don't cycle your bats but you have bat backup .  and gti if you are interested  in manually switching it on .

any know or  have clever software that switch  gti on pls let me know?

I still have (not connected) the Kaco powadore   and limiter and it worked fine but its  not for me as I have a north array and a west array

cheers

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Agreed on the limiter. The GTIs that have limiters (that I know of) are the Microcare units, Fronius, Infinisolar (internal current meter or external modbus meter), and SolarEdge (using WattNode external meter). I think SMA can also do it. Technically any inverter that speaks SunSpec can be controlled using another metering solution, and these definitely include Fronius and SMA.

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7 hours ago, maxomill said:

a lot of people talk grid tied but if you are interested in that then one should factor in a gti limiter as house loads always fluctuate and there are only a few available(that I know of ) that are limiter friendly and come at a price . fronius and kaco  can work with microcare limiter . I think sola log  and the Hauwei also make a good combo.

The Goodwe comes with a good grid limiter included. All in all the Goodwe is a very good piece of kit. Its only drawback is that it cannot be paralleled. This is not insurmountable but nevertheless when everyone else is producing inverters capable of parallel operation one would hope Goodwe would follow suit. Solar Log is capable of grid limitation but cost the price of a small inverter on its own. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi Johan,

I am in the same town as you and for me the convenience of having a solar system far outweighs the cost factor.....

As you are aware we have power interruptions up to 2 times a week due to the imbeciles running the council...

My Alternative energy thinking started when i realized that i was spending upwards of R1000 a month for fuel for my generator. I then purchased 2 x 2Kva Ellies portable inverters to run the essentials, this cut fuel for my generator by 80%. I only used the generator when both my Ellies battery packs ran flat....like when the tsotsies kept on stealing the sub-stations transformer drain valves causing 2 day power outages.....

My system has only been running for a few weeks and I don't even know when the grid power is off anymore.... Not even to mention the possible Eskom municipal daily shut that is due to commence in November...

It was a no-brainer for me to  upgrade to a small full solar system...

 

 

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20 hours ago, GVC said:

It was a no-brainer for me to  upgrade to a small full solar system.

I wholeheartedly agree. The pro's for solar is there, lots of good positive outcomes, never looked back etc.

BUT ...

There are always the other, darker side.

Like, make the call on facts, not emotions like frustrations / anger etc. for it all goes well till that battery bank needs replacement one day.
Or the system needs more and more tweaking and you are not "into" Pi's nor Arduino to make every watt count, to protect the batteries at all costs, yet use them to their max ROI.
Or SWAMBO (and her little ones) gets really annoyed with it all and gives out terms.

Been there, done that, T-Short is used for floors now.

Some of us just NIKE'ed - "Just Do It", with great success. Others have gone for smaller systems with very specific items on solar. Both have merits.

In my case I honed in on computers (primary) with added benefits for lights, fridge, TV etc. Never the kitchen nor the rest of the house or the kids computers. 

Bottom line, what I am saying, know your requirements upfront, make a few hard calls, then decided if it is worth the money. 

In my case I could never justify the cost of a generator, but I could do UPS'es, with the separate circuits and all that, for I figured batts are cheaper than generators in CERTAIN situations.

Just be ruthless with oneself with the facts around the decisions to go solar, versus UPS. Sacrifices are going to come into play OR a huge bill in the end, when you sit down one day and add up all the little bits of what it really costed one to go solar.

OR ...

It is a learning hobby ... Priceless ... for costs goes out the window with all the new toys and things and ideas and ...  :D

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52 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

decided if it is worth the money

I'm already halfway towards the amount of my initial solar investment in water equipment. An old colleague of mine explained the economics to me: He installed a 5000 liter tank at some point, but he says at his normal levels, he probably payes around R5/kl. So he spent over 5k to store R25 of water. I bet everyone knows the real value isn't in the savings though...

To what extent electricity and water are the same (or not) is left as an exercise for the reader, but I feel like you need just enough of both to stay alive. I'm now at the point that there's just too many pumps that need electricity to move the water... so both are critical.

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23 hours ago, GVC said:

Not even to mention the possible Eskom municipal daily shut that is due to commence in November...

 

I wonder about stunts like this by Eskom, if they annoy the paying customers too much, they will just go off grid and they will never extract the arrears from the municipalities.

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1 hour ago, plonkster said:

I bet everyone knows the real value isn't in the savings though.

Do we? Personally, ito water, I don't think the affluent white areas really have an idea of what could be coming their way. Informal settlements and squatter camps do understand.

Just cannot stop thinking about how intricate we can make things for "convenience". Water, lets say CoCT indeed gets all up and running in time and the future, then all the thousands (per site) spent on water and pumps are not going to be needed and that brings the maintenance into play year after year. 

Versus one goes manual PROVIDED it is a temp measure, like Sipho and Mathwethwe, whom have been collecting water their whole life's.

As with electricity. When we had constant failures we had to make a plan ... then the power was resumed and all went stable for the majority, and some people lost interest in their solar projects, as per one of my friends. All those panels, inverters, batteries are now just standing there, not needed nor used - and if they are needed again, batteries are 10/1 done.

Ag, I don't know. Nothing is easy not simple.

Lets go to the pub, ALL gets sorted there.

 

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3 minutes ago, DeepBass9 said:

I wonder about stunts like this by Eskom, if they annoy the paying customers too much, they will just go off grid and they will never extract the arrears from the municipalities.

The revenue split between homes, shops and industries are not published. 

I don’t see big industries going the solar route. A mine I worked on constructed a huge solar plant and never saw any benefit apart from a bit of tax relief. 

So the home owner who installs expensive solar equipment will only ever be a discussion point. 

Just remember you are a very small minority. But a paying one at that. So this will be the real reason for being missed. 

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7 hours ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

Like, make the call on facts, not emotions like frustrations / anger etc. for it all goes well till that battery bank needs replacement one day.
 

I agree with this sentiment 100%.

The fact is that the council owes Eskom R1.3 billion, that apparently equates to R4 million per day in interest alone. The electrical and water infrastructure has decayed to a point that it will cost another couple of billion to repair. We have electrical cables, transformers and water pipes popping all over town on a daily basis. Not a day goes by that one area or more is standing without electricity or water.

I have never defaulted on my monthly payments and i am being penalized as well.

No Sir, I will gladly pay what it takes to maintain my independence...

Why don't I just sell-up and move somewhere else?....This is not that easy as property prices in this town have already fallen by 30%.

 

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1 hour ago, GVC said:

... electrical and water infrastructure has decayed ...

Ja, I know of a man who was part of the teams over many decades that built most of the bridges, water towers and sewage treatment plants in and around Witbank and other smaller towns.

He was forced into early retirement. Then he was brought back as a contractor when things went south fast, a number of years back, till he said, enough, nothing he can do. 

Appears that it all has been run into the ground, the monies "spent" on all but the maintenace and upkeep, resulting is substantial investment required to bring it all back up to scratch.

And yes, he also tried to rent his house out, till Highveld steel went under, in the end he had to sell as a loss.

Over and above all the above, with Witbank's air quality, I think it all makes a very compelling case for selling, even if it is at a lost, for not only, in MY opinion, is the values going down, any investment in solar is not going to bring back that loss. Just a thought.

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1 hour ago, GVC said:

I agree with this sentiment 100%.

My above post also brings a few other "facts" to be considered to the table for solar, "facts" that are not in ones control, reducing the solar investment if it is part of the house, as the house prices devalue, with SA going to junk status maybe in Nov 2017, due to our impeccable Minister of Finance recent budget speech, could result in more mines / industry closing in and around Witbank?

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  • 1 month later...

Gents,

I've run out of time and placed the orders for the startup equipment.

Infinisolar Super 4K 4kw inverter with 4 off 2,4kw Pylontech lithium batteries to be used as a backup system (will be installed in the next week). I've no idea what I can pull from them in practice as I gave up on trying to get my Effergy meters to work with Apple. And to buy a clamp meter in this town is a hopeless exercise (I don't have a need for a Fluke).

I will try and reverse engineer the lot as time goes by - should work out as most of my stuff is energy efficient (apart from the stove, oven and 2.2kw borehole pump).

I am independent from the municipal water which is a blessing indeed.

This is a first phase as it is very expensive (I am retired) which will be followed by solar panels when I've got the spare cash available. Made a decision to go off the grid asap.

Just in time to beat load shedding times published for Witbank.

I am still trying to figure out how to split up the db as no real decent examples exist that I can copy. I need to make major changes there.

The generator will need to go the high amperage side and stay on the changeover switch

Its raining well here (extremely grateful for this blessing) and that might be the reason why Sam electrician is not pitching up.

I am disappointing with the local ACDCExpress which does not participate in discount campaigns (?). My db must be replaced as it is full to the brim with wires.

Also disappointed with the local solar installation quotes - suppliers do not appreciate the need to be accurate with what they put in :-(

Needless to say that I ignore quotes like that.

Heres to hoping that everything will work out fine.

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Johandup said:

Also disappointed with the local solar installation quotes - suppliers do not appreciate the need to be accurate with what they put in :-(

As a DIY that has branched out into installs I can see both sides. 

I did an install where we quoted for 40 tile brackets and guesstimated the roof trusses were 1.2 m apart. Once we were up on the roof I found they were 1.4 m apart and we only used 34 tile brackets. So long as I invoice him for 34 rather than 40 all is good.

What is unacceptable is quoting 60m of solar cable for a 15 panel install and MC4 connectors at over R100 a pair. Folk approach us since they have difficulty determining that our quotes are for real. 

For example I have quoted for a 20kW system (yes it is Chinese with 5 year warranty and up to 20 year extended warranty) with 22kW of panels (Tier 1). One of the competing quotes is a  high end European inverter (very good) with fewer panels than our quote of a untested brand. To my mind that is a complete mismatch and is like buying a top of the range Jurgens caravan and then buying a new Tata to tow it with. Yes the Tata will tow the caravan but is it a suitable towing vehicle? No one really knows a it is still too new to have built up a reputation. Same with this quote a mismatch of components - the most expensive inverter on the market paired to the cheapest panels.

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45 minutes ago, Chris Hobson said:

paired to the cheapest panels

Would be interested what kind of panels you consider cheap/stay-away-from. I've seen the same kind of debate elsewhere. My last panels were Canadian Solar (which despite the name is still Chinese) and the consensus on those appear to be that it is a good mid-range panel. Now... the difference between these panels and the cheaper ones below it... really wasn't that much. Why go cheaper? Another case of penny-wise-pound-foolish?

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I really want to help the local people but they must not take me for a fool.

The one added a solar panel combiner and added 14% vat to the full prizes.

Don’t they realise that we’ve already checked everything online?

Solar is not rocket science.

Its a pity Chris is so far from my town.

Its a big investment and I want value for my money.

I also require a system that will be hassle free.

Thus the reason for all the posts in this forum.

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2 hours ago, Johandup said:

The one added a solar panel combiner

Depending on the system a combiner box is essential. There are a few of the bigger gridtie systems that have built in surge protection and fusing and so do not need a combiner box. So at the very least you would need a SPD and fusing for each MPPT input.

7 hours ago, plonkster said:

Would be interested what kind of panels you consider cheap/stay-away-from. I've seen the same kind of debate elsewhere. My last panels were Canadian Solar (which despite the name is still Chinese) and the consensus on those appear to be that it is a good mid-range panel. Now... the difference between these panels and the cheaper ones below it... really wasn't that much. Why go cheaper? Another case of penny-wise-pound-foolish?

Morning Plonky

I like Canadian Solar and it appears they produce a bit more than competing brands for a given panel size.  Over the panel's lifetime it will more than make up for the difference in price. I would go with the Australian "Solar Quotes" website's recommendation. Buy Tier 1 panels unless you have extra information as to the suitability of an alternative. Tier 1 is not a grading of the performance/quality of a particular panel but rather a evaluation of the financial soundness of the manufacturer. The thinking is that successful solar manufacturers in all likelihood make good panels. It distinguishes the top dogs from the wannabes.

I have no problem per se with the cheaper panels but I'd rather not risk being called back to a site to take panels off a roof because a client is unhappy. As a DIYer one understands the risks and one can allow for that. Any problems and you can whack up a couple of extra panels. I don't have that luxury.

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2 hours ago, Johandup said:

I really want to help the local people but they must not take me for a fool.

The one added a solar panel combiner and added 14% vat to the full prizes.

Don’t they realise that we’ve already checked everything online?

Solar is not rocket science.

Its a pity Chris is so far from my town.

Its a big investment and I want value for my money.

I also require a system that will be hassle free.

Thus the reason for all the posts in this forum.

Hi Johan

I drove through to Middelburg ACDC to buy my db board. The Witbank branch wanted to charge me R860 for the db board and I purchased the same one for R409 in Middelburg.

As for the local solar suppliers I received a quote for R68 000 for my system and purchased exactly the same in Pretoria for R45 000.

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Chris and I  have discussed pricing at length. 

Your customer is looking for competitive pricing and after sales service. If you charge too little for the former you cannot give the latter. In big installs generally the client already has automated systems which can be adapted. Whereas on a home install a bit of time and effort is needed to make it run seamlessly. 

I would say that a mark up of between 10 and 20% on materials would be fair and a bill of quantities within reason. I have seen 300% markup on cabling etc. 

So my advice is 

  1. Familiarise yourself with pricing and get more than one quote.
  2. Understand what you need, even if you are not going to do the install yourself. I was at a new client yesterday and there is no battery disconnect. The batteries are boiling and I wanted to disconnect them. An employee had to go get a spanner from the workshop 500m away.  In an emergency that sort of "battery disconnect" is going to result in a fire.
  3. If there is someone in the area with solar go and look at his system (why is it almost never her?) ask questions and if you like what you see ask who did the install.
  4. Read as much as you can. Most folk do a bit of research before buying a car and a solar install could cost as much as a secondhand car - don't part with your money until you know what you want from the solar system and what you are going to get.
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14 minutes ago, Chris Hobson said:

If you charge too little for the former you cannot give the latter.

The same is true for equipment makers. We can sell the stuff at half price... just don't expect any service or firmware upgrades then.

Ironically... that's how it pans out in real life. You can get an inverter at a third of the price... but you have to get your firmware from some enthusiasts in Australia and service is pretty much that the importer keeps a couple of main boards on hand so he can just swap them out.

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3 hours ago, GVC said:

Hi Johan

I drove through to Middelburg ACDC to buy my db board. The Witbank branch wanted to charge me R860 for the db board and I purchased the same one for R409 in Middelburg.

As for the local solar suppliers I received a quote for R68 000 for my system and purchased exactly the same in Pretoria for R45 000.

Hi GVC,

Who did the installation for you if I may ask?

Did you find the Acdc quality acceptable?

I need to replace mine with 2 x 18 way ones.

Did you split your db into a high and low amperage?

 

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Gents,

I need some advice on the CoC please.

The installer I am talking to insists that he can only amend my house CoC.

I don’t have a certificate like this and do not intend to get one.

What is my way forward?

What is a reasonable fee for a single installation - the ones I am getting is very high for a few hours work.

 

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