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mohammedbera2

Axpert / Mecer 5KVA model

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Hi  guys  bought  an inverter 5kva mecer (axpert mks ) late 2016 

Recived  the unit  silver  and black 

top has black heat sink and bottom  black cover  for all connections   

 Needed  more watts so ordered a 2nd unit 

Recived  today  everthing looks the same except :

No black  heat sink (cooling fins ) on top   is this a new model ?

Will it be compatible with the  old 1 ?

Attached  pictures  new and old 

20180129_234714.png

rps20180129_234438.jpg

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My understanding, based on only a dozen or so machines in Australia, is that the models with the heatsink on top are very old, perhaps 2013 or 2014 at the latest. 

I've never understood why you get so many of those old models in South Africa. I don't expect them to be customised in any way, except for the Mecer or other branding. 

What is the date on the sticker over one of the cover screws? 

What version of firmware came with each machine? 

It's possible that the two machines can't run the same firmware revision, and so can't be paralleled. The supplier should be able to exchange one for you, I would think. Assuming you do want to parallel them. 

You should be able to run the new one off a bench power supply (at least about 36 V, from poor memory), without having to fully install it. When the inverter comes on, the power will collapse and it will likely turn off or fault, so check the firmware revision (use the up button) before that happens. Of course, not everyone has such a power supply. This would be valuable ammunition in your discussions with your supplier. Or maybe they can tell you what it comes with. 

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One thing that I notice is that the Solar Charger differs from each other 80 A vs 60 A not sure if it would make any difference. 

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1 hour ago, PaulF007 said:

One thing that I notice is that the Solar Charger differs from each other 80 A vs 60 A not sure if it would make any difference. 

If the inverter firmware is recent enough, I believe it can handle this difference (from about 72.60 onwards, it is 60/80 amp agile).

The problem will be that since you need the same firmware version on paralleled inverters, can you run recent firmware on older hardware. 

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9 hours ago, Coulomb said:

My understanding, based on only a dozen or so machines in Australia, is that the models with the heatsink on top are very old, perhaps 2013 or 2014 at the latest. 

I received my Axpert/Mecer, with an external heatsink, in June 2015 and it was manufactured June 2015 (there was probably a run on inverters at the time). From what I can understand so long as the firmware is the same you can parallel the internal heat sink inverters with the external heat sink inverters.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7OaZ3tzMxk

 

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8 hours ago, Coulomb said:

What is the date on the sticker over one of the cover screws? 

2015 -08

2017- 11

8 hours ago, Coulomb said:

What version of firmware came with each machine?

Didn't  power up the new one yet 

Old 1 im pretty  sure I updated  to 72.60

Will dbl check  

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3 hours ago, mohammedbera2 said:

Old 1 im pretty  sure I updated  to 72.60

I'm more interested in what it came with, if you can remember. 

Edit : on second thoughts, no, I'm more interested in what it was updated to. Sorry! As long as it is reasonably recent, you should have no trouble with the latest firmware. If it is recent, you should be fine paralleling the two. 

Edited by Coulomb

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11 hours ago, Coulomb said:

I'm more interested in what it was updated to.

Just powered up  to check firmware

old one 72.60

New one

74.10

Should I update so both  are the same ?

 

rps20180130_231618.jpg

rps20180130_231534.jpg

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If you want to parallel them (as opposed to splitting the loads), then yes, you will need to update them to the same firmware. There was a hardware change at 73.00; an extra relay was added to connect neutral and earth when in battery mode. 

I'd guess that they made another hardware change with 74.XX. Weber and I were starting to doubt that 74.XX exists, so thanks for proving it does. 

So I'd recommend asking your seller for the latest 74.XX firmware update files, and if you are allowed, upload a copy here or email it to me (PM me for my email address). 

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According to the labels, the old machine is pf0.8 (4 kW/5 kVA), while the new one is pf1.0 (5 kW/5 kVA). It is confusing that both have the same model number "SOL-I-AX-5M".

So I think you cannot load firmware 74.10 into your old machine, and if so, you cannot parallel the two machines. I'm thinking 74.10 is old firmware for pf1.0 machines, not new firmware for pf0.8 machines.

I suggest you ask the supplier if you can please exchange the new inverter for one that has "5000VA/4000W" on the sticker, so you have some chance of paralleling it with your old inverter.

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48 minutes ago, weber said:

According to the labels, the old machine is pf0.8 (4 kW/5 kVA), while the new one is pf1.0 (5 kW/5 kVA).

Oops! I completely failed to check the "power factor" issue. 

48 minutes ago, weber said:

It is confusing that both have the same model number "SOL-I-AX-5M". 

Indeed! 

48 minutes ago, weber said:

So I think you cannot load firmware 74.10 into your old machine, and if so, you cannot parallel the two machines. I'm thinking 74.10 is old firmware for pf1.0 machines, not new firmware for pf0.8 machines.

Yes, that makes sense. Everyone seems to think that 5 kW has to be better than 4 kW, so why not get the extra real power capacity? But the hardware must be different, as indicated by the different firmware revisions. I'm guessing that you need 74.XX or 75.XX for either the 5 kW rating, or dual/triple SCCs, or both.

It's also not clear to me whether the 5 kW models are intended to replace the 4 kW models for new installations. In other words, if the 4 kW models are only intended to be used for compatibility with older 4 kW models. 

48 minutes ago, weber said:

I suggest you ask the supplier if you can please exchange the new inverter for one that has "5000VA/4000W" on the sticker, so you have some chance of paralleling it with your old inverter.

Excellent advice, as usual.

I doubt that even the suppliers are aware of this issue, and it certainly seems too easy to fall into this trap. 

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Thanks Coulomb, for making me realise that 75.xx is for dual/triple-MPPT machines, not pf 1.0 machines. So 74.10 may not be old firmware, it may be current firmware (but only for pf 1.0 machines).

@mohammedbera2, If the supplier or manufacturer tells you that you can parallel a 4000 W (pf 0.8) machine with a 5000 W (pf 1.0) machine, I note that Coulomb and I do not yet have the ability to patch the 5000 W firmware to fix the premature-float bug, because we don't have a firmware update file for it (e.g. 74.xx). For that reason, it might be a good idea to take Coulomb's earlier advice and ask them for a 74.10 firmware update file.

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Just to add to the confusion, I found this on the MPP Solar web site:

Quote

It is very important to note that the PF1 versions, despite similarity to the original PF0.8 PIP-HS and PIP-MS inverters, cannot work together in parallel with the PF0.8 models.   To avoid any confusion, model names have been changed on the PF1.0 to differentiate.  All parallel units MUST have the same model name.

That's from: https://www.mppsolar.com/v3/pip-hsms-pf1-series/

MPP Solar may have changed the model names for the PF1.0, but it is apparent from the label photos above, that others have not.

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On 1/31/2018 at 11:26 AM, weber said:

Thanks Coulomb, for making me realise that 75.xx is for dual/triple-MPPT machines, not pf 1.0 machines. So 74.10 may not be old firmware, it may be current firmware (but only for pf 1.0 machines).

@mohammedbera2, If the supplier or manufacturer tells you that you can parallel a 4000 W (pf 0.8) machine with a 5000 W (pf 1.0) machine, I note that Coulomb and I do not yet have the ability to patch the 5000 W firmware to fix the premature-float bug, because we don't have a firmware update file for it (e.g. 74.xx). For that reason, it might be a good idea to take Coulomb's earlier advice and ask them for a 74.10 firmware update file.

spoke to the supplier : asked them for 74.10

they spoke to their supplier and got back to me today 

reply was it will work  must use 74.10 as master unit and  72.60 as slave

i will give it a try and see what happens 

 

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On 02/02/2018 at 8:29 PM, mohammedbera2 said:

they spoke to their supplier and got back to me today 

Wow. Good service.

Quote

reply was it will work  must use 74.10 as master unit and  72.60 as slave

That's interesting. My firmware reading is that most of the firmware revisions are incompatible with each other, in the sense that they won't parallel with each other, except for a block of several, including 52.30, 72.40, and 72.60, and 73.00, but not 72.70. So 72.60 seems to be the most recent of the "parallelables" (in the 72.XX series). I was guessing 74.XX not to be parallel-compatible with these older ones, but maybe that's what 74.XX is all about; to run on recent hardware and be parallelable with the earlier models' firmware.

Quote

i will give it a try and see what happens 

I'll be very interested to hear the result.

Edited by Coulomb
Major typo: said 72.40 where I meant 74.XX. Also 73.00 *is* compatible with earlier versions.

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Good day to all

Firstly thankyou all for the great and helpful advice on this forum and others. I am very new to inverters and solar power but decided to give it a try and install it all myself. 2 paralleled units with two 3000w solar panel sets. With a 400 A battery bank. I am learning a lot about electricity , inverters and solar, its a lit of fun.

I have exactly the same same issue. 

I am busy installing two inverters in parallel and one has 74.10 firmware and the ither I have updated to 72.60. Identical to mohammedbera2 ‘s inverters.

As soon as I switch both on it give error 71 -  the firmware is not the same. 

Would I be able to upgrade the older unit to 74.10 and where would I be able to find the firmware. Or could I put firmware 72.60 on the new machine. I am willing to try it out but I do not have the 74.10 firmware to go back if it does not work.

Interesting to note the fans come on rmedietely on firmware 74.10 . 

Any suggestions ?

I will post step bu step pictures of my install in future and let you know how I solve this issue if I can.

 

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Good day to all.  Update

I changed the firmware on the older unit to 72.70c Now I dont get the error 71 anymore . And depending on the unit first powered up I get HS and SL . Master and slave.

My two inverters are only on battery at the moment as I am still busy setting everything up. Hope to pull the utility wires through today and start with the solar panels soon. 

Once the utility power and house power is connected I will test and see if anything blows up.

 

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Hi Werner. Thanks for posting. Do not reflash your new 74.10 inverter with any lower-numbered firmware.

We don't know if it is possible to reflash your old inverter with 74.10. If so, you would have to obtain the firmware from your supplier.

Just in case anyone on this thread doesn't know, 72.70c and 72.60a (and any others with a letter on the end) are not approved by the inverter manufacturer. (They have been patched by Coulomb and I, to fix the premature-float bug, and add some useful features.)

That's very useful information that 74.10 with 72.60 gives an error 71, but 74.10 with 72.70c (and so presumably 72.70) does not. Do you know which one was the master in each case?

There is a potential problem with using 72.70c in parallel with anything other than 72.70c. The codes used to communicate the value of the maximum total charge current setting [02], between inverters, are offset by 10 amps. In 72.70c, codes 0 thru 14 (on the CAN bus between inverters) represent 0 A thru 140 A. In all other firmware 0 thru 13 represent 10 A thru 140 A. I'm not sure what problems this could cause. It might be safer to use the original 72.70. But then, of course, you will have the premature-float bug on both inverters.

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Hi weber

Thankyou so much for the quick response, and thank you and Coulomb for your work on the patches.

My original tries with the 74.10 and 72.60 I tried both as master and slave. Both ways gave the error 71.

I still have to see what the inverters does with load. As soon as I get to that stage I will update.

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3 hours ago, Werner Piek said:

My original tries with the 74.10 and 72.60 I tried both as master and slave. Both ways gave the error 71.

By this, do you mean that you deliberately powered up one inverter after the other to force the allocation of master and slave? You presumably would have a fancy pre-charge arrangement if so.

Or do you mean you powered it up multiple times, waiting for whichever one came up as master first time to come up as a slave eventually?
Also, in the above series of photos, we see that the newer machine with 74.10 came up as master, since it displayed its master status with "HS" (72.70c would have displayed "MS" with the disjointed "M"). But does it always power up that way? I suspect that either machine could become a master, but that depends on how the machines decide who will "wear the master hat" this power-up.

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Hi All,

 

The only way to connect these inverter's in parallel is to down grade the firmware according to the supplier.  I have a installation at a customer, and on inverter was damage through lightning.   I received the replacement unit.  "We have to downgrade to PF0.8"

It seems that they will work, but only once its been down graded to PF0.8

Hope this help

Johan van der Spoel

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On the Australian AEVA forum, it was reported that 72.60 and 73.00 are parallel-compatible. This conflicts with what I posted earlier, so I re-checked my work.

I was surprised to find that yes, 73.00 is in the same "parallel compatibility" group as 52.30, 72.40, and 72.60, but not 72.70.

From the above, we know that 72.70 and 74.10 are in a different "parallel compatibility" group. [ Edit: Huh? This is corrected two posts below. ]

75.31 (for dual and triple SCC models) is on its own, so it looks like 75.31 at least can't parallel with any single SCC models.

The only other firmware I have is a very old one, 52.02, and it's not in any of the other groups.

Sorry for the misinformation. I've edited the original to correct this mistake.

Edited by Coulomb

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3 minutes ago, JohanPS said:

The only way to connect these inverter's in parallel is to down grade the firmware according to the supplier. 

We seem to have two counter-examples now. It seems that 74.10 will parallel with 72.70, and 73.00 with 72.60. My research suggests that any in this set will also parallel: 52.30, 72.40, 72.60, and 73.00.

3 minutes ago, JohanPS said:

I have a installation at a customer, and on inverter was damage through lightning.   I received the replacement unit.  "We have to downgrade to PF0.8"

Do you know what "downgrading to PF0.8" means?

Does it mean running an earlier firmware that limits the output to 4 kW instead of 5 kW?

3 minutes ago, JohanPS said:

Hope this help

It is good, even though it's confusing. Thanks for sharing.

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