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Everything posted by Erastus

  1. I forgot to mention the circulation pump uses 70W per hour and a photo of the temp: Temp taken with an accurate sensor.
  2. So, I have these vacuum tubes: It is 11 of +/- 1Meter in length Done the small modification and added another 200l old geyser as a heat reservoir. The temp both tanks already @ 64C @ 11H00 in the morning and climbing. I run the circulation pump with some crude parameters. Will fine tune it and have real time graphs and more data available. From the information thus far these 11 tubes heats 300l no problem. What I did as an experiment is the 100l tank gets heated with a timing function to 57C for those who would like to bath/shower in the morning. From the stats it uses +/- 3 units per day. Then the sun takes over and the element stays off until the 100l drops below 54C which is past 7 at night. The 300l water at night is quite a lot as the temp is way above 65C. Thus the 300l water has to drop below 54C to put the element on and that is only in the morning. Time will tell what the true impact is as from the information thus far the solar geyser uses +/- R 80 per month electricity. In our house people shower and bath in the morning and at night. We use +/- 700l per day. Controlling the hot and cold water entry points and geyser temp will be adjusted to an optimum setup as soon as I have proper data collections. All indications currently are that with a vacuum tube solar heater backed by electricity the changes are good to have +/- 400L water @ 57C per day for the bathrooms in my case @ roughly R100 per month. Graphs and more information will follow soon. I could never achieved that with gas as it is more than 4 times the cost for the same and does not heat the water to the same temp. I tested with a gas unit but to get > 50C a 19Kg bottle of gas @ R460+/- lasts for two weeks. Gas is thus out its way to expensive and extremely inefficient to heat water for bath room use. The race for best ROI from the current information is a combination solar and vacuum collectors. I also think its impossible for a heat pump to use only 3 units per day. Any person have information on that or differ please let me know. I do not have factual information. Between gas and solar vacuum tubes with an added electricity and grid tie it will be extremely difficult to beat this configuration. My switch over valve should be here this week then I will complete the full installation and have data plus graphs. The cost thus far: Original solar geyser is +/- 15 years old so I do not have a cost on that. 200l tank free was a throw away some problem with the element fitting. Most house should have a 150 or 200l existing geyser R3400 similar solar geyser and tubes R960 Circulation pump delivered to door R230 Pipes R711 Switch valve R168 Controller R 230 Sushi buffet for the few hours to put all together
  3. Many thanks. Yes I am using a nano as well. R12 can't even buy a Coke. I also use a RF tx/rx (1KM distance) interfacing to the rest. What is the "other solar temp"? I am using 4 x DS18B20 One for the geyser, one for the other tank, one for the temp on the collectors and one for ambient. I never thought about it until this discussion. So I thought would be interesting to see what C one gets at the end of the vacuum tube and then the "latency/time" of transfer. The RF is used to synch a software clock for the geyser wise on/off function and send data to the DB I have running. Thinking of putting a 20amp current sensor to calculate the power usages with a geyser controlled at 60, 65, 55 and then on/off periods. Clever idea the joy stick I am using a STM to interface the different devices. That is for my irrigation, tank levels, koi pond (>55Kl) level which is the main reservoir for my RO and then push it into a online mysql. When done I will push it onto the webb for live monitoring .... Only reason why I am doing this is to see the amount of hot water one can get from a few tubes and then to show buyeye heat pumps is not an option. Thanks for sharing.
  4. Will love to take you out. Lets get the next phase done will be the cost of a solar geyser usage to heat 300l water ... That is where we will compare the heat pump to the solar geyser. The first test was to verify a fancy electronic cct to a timer. Would love to compare the kwhr from the heat pump to solar / conventional. But I agree push more power back to the grid and don't worry about on and off's. I simply did this as a test so others can see facts I appreciate your inputs
  5. temp gauge measuring the water after a few seconds in the closest tamp wash basin or bath or ... Make sure it can measure 0 -75C
  6. I have my temp sensors installed and now I am monitoring the geyser temperature. As for the fancy electronic equipment that people pay to save money. Other than switching the power off lets say at 21H00 and then on at lets say 06H00 and precisely control the temp of the geyser how does these devices save electricity? Take it for granted I understand less time on equals less KWhr and a Temp set to 55C will take less Kwhr than one set at 65C Using a conventional bi metal thermostat we have the same equipment used in a car to control the engine temperature. Therefore the accuracy of these controllers are +/-5% thus the temp set on the geysers thermostat is 55C Therefore the temp will very between 52C and 56C. Then it is clear that the water mass and the amount of water usage when draining the geyser drops the temp and then it heats to 56C. Therefore the low temp gets dropped far below 55 depending on the amount of cold water in put. From this I can not see any difference between a R320 multi day timer and a geyser wise system, If I am wrong and you are in Cape Town I will stick you for a free sushi at Saki my favorite place. Therefore from the first tests I stay put with my statement that these fancy electronics people paying a lot of money for does not save electricity. What I mean by that is that any device a oven, micro wave, a geyser, a heater will use less electricity due to the off time of the timer and for no other reason.
  7. Over the weekend I did this small controller: There are 4 temperature probes. Ambient temperature Manifold temp or temp produces by the vacuum tube Geyser 1 Temp Hot water storage tank. Still did not receive my valve but for now: The solar geyser has a 1500W element with a bi-metal temp controller. I will set this to 65C to ensure that the geyser does not get heated more than 65 by electricity. The software will control the temp the same way as Geyser-wise. The circulation pump will circulate the hot water between the two tanks. Data collection for the first week or will determine the software I got an old 200l geyser that has no element or temp controller. Did not pay for it as some one chucked it and I thought its ideal for this experiment. Analise the on time of the element == KwHr usage with bi-metal and then CPU controlled Impact of adding a small solar system to an existing geyser instead of other "stuff" My objectives are: To determine the amount of hot water can be obtained from a few vacuum tubes. Control the temp the same way as GW regulate the storage not to go below 45C when the ambient temp drops below the days average. Inlet is the water inlet from my RO plant and outlet is the hot water to the home. Should any person want to comment or make suggestions I will appreciate it. Once I have sufficient data for graphs I do graphing and ... Guess this will be OK for a start.
  8. I have no idea of the starting temp. Yes we do use +/- 300l of hot water per day.
  9. I have no logic. I will share the way I did it the pros and cons plus photo's graphs and how I did it to generate max water. maybe open a new topic from where who ever can make suggestions and I will do what I can.
  10. The second try started of well until I applied full vacuum. "Ohhhhhh dearame". Full vacuum highlighted flaws in my "mold". I never worked with vacuum before and am amazed with the strength when continues vacuum gets applied to fiber glass. Thus before I applied resin etc I ran a full vacuum test to check it all. After a few minutes the prop started to show where the week points are and a few wholes in the fiber glass appeared. The vacuum showed all the weakness of the FBG by creating break spots where fiber glass was applied to thin. Recon it is time with the knowledge gain to redo the mold and create a strong multi layer mold. The area in the red circle was ripped from the FBG with full vacuum.
  11. A very nice question that came from this discussion is how effective is a solar collector and the ROI of it. I have the following array of vacuum gas tubes. +/- 98% during this cold and rainy ( 1 in more than 10years) winter we had our hot water generated during the day was more than 80C. There are 11 x 1meter tubes: So I got a new circulation pump: I will now interconnect it with a 200l geyser no element and monitor the temp during the day. A small micro computer will control it. I will remove the old style bi metal temp controller and move a stainless temp sensor that will control the temp. I will also install a T valve : From this I will see the efficiency and potential of the vacuum tubes as well as do a "smarter" "geyserwize" implementation that will do the control. I am pretty sure that I will get 300l water @ 85C from those tubes. Will paste the results and graphs as soon as I get my T valve.
  12. And how right you are. But its there for emergency lights as well. I have a few of them that at night via CPU I can switch to off grid and chrage during the day via solar. A cheap version to replace expensive batteries and inverters. That's more my aim. 8 of these batteries runs my whole house lights when thare are any power issues and during the night I can run of batteries and charge it during the day via solar. All CPU controlled.
  13. Will not argue about heat pumps are better than geysers ... except for the cost. The topic: Geyser ROI's. Electric vs Gas vs Solar Where the ROI on sun backing on a collector is extremely difficult to beat both for installation cost, maintenance and ROI. Not sure how often glass tubes get broken by hail else where in Cpt we hardly see it. Mine is at least 16 years old and still working and still heating the water....
  14. Let me explain to you that I understand that a heat pump is "better" than geyser and let me take on the battery systems as well. Something you have to understand I agree there is a place for heat pumps and there is a place for batteries I am not arguing that. What I am saying not in my home I do not like expensive white elephants that keeps on demanding attention. A frien of mine installed a power wall and all. Over the R200K and they all ready have fancy battery issues.... These systems ask more money and attention than "skelmpie.". The cost of a heat pump: R 15 000 AND HOW LONG DES IT LAST and what is the cost to fix it? In my case my electricity bill was more than R3K not sure how much it will be today and my water bill was > R 2000. Today my water is 0 and my electricity is < R 0.00 That is a tax free savings of more than R5500 per month. Some facts: My computer is on 24/7 I have a 60 000l koi pond/reservoir I have +/- 17 000l swimming pool. 4 fridges 3 large size TV's A geyser and ... In this winter I was building stuff and used only +/- 50% of my solar system . Let me also mention this that for all practical purposes its two families and the most my electricity was R884 for July. Two families each pays R440 if you wish. And I give my neighbor free water. All from my solar system You must understand I do not do this "digging" I will die of boredom. So I dig and scratch my hobby is my work and my work is my hobby. So I play. I listen what people say do a test bed and then see what is the most "COST EFFECTIVE" solution. Therefor my statement if you can afford R 100 000 for batteries then obviously don't listen to me. The question is how many live in A > R 6M house and wants to save on a few Rand's of electricity. Some one very dear and close to me install one of these fancy products and by luck his geyser was set correctly and there was no change. This person listen to a salesman and at the end there was no savings. Trust me it was far more than R1000 the cost. Therefore my main aim for these debates are to show people you can start small expand and then start using the councils money to build your system. You do not have to spend R 40 000 to start saving. Therefore it would be far better for a person to install a solar geyser with some sort of collector than to buy a heat pump at a huge cost. The reality is for +/- R 2000 and a bit of labor you can convert your own geyser and have an immediate impact. Or even better take the R 900 as payment towards a gas hob and immediate you will see the difference. Telling people you need R 50 K batteries, R 30 K heat pump and then R15 K fancy electronics to sound and look smart put it out of reach of +/- 90% in SA. But a gas hob of R 2000 is in reach and its an immediate saving. That is then the first brick of the power saving lego blocks. The next is to do the geyser and will cost +/- R3000 and all of a sudden for R5000 and no fancy electronics the savings are noticeable. I saw a advert on gumtree for R1000 as the person wanted to upgrade. It is a vacuum tube system ... It is this what I thought this article is about. Not to spend money that a lot of people can never reach. But once you spend it on the right stuff then for sure in 4/5 years you will be able to afford batteries and what ever and then you get either the council or the sun to pay. I am sure that this person who asked the question is looking at a better priced system or solutions rather than spending R150K on equipment that you will never have a ROI with an account of R 1500. Therefore my "aggression" towards fancy electronics and gimmicks that makes sale people look smart. Remember I live and eat electronics so I am not anti that stuff. We should be realistic and help people to start get out of the grip of those that steel from us and that is my aim. Do I have anything against a heat pump no. I just can't see how on earth am I going to get R20K back in 3 years on R 1500 electricity account. I assure you this person if he installs a gas hob he will immediately see the difference then he will be exited for the next step and then before long he will have his own solar and ... Once people realize you can by a starter and expand more will go this way. But how on earth do you tell some one start by spending R20K on a heat pump, R 50K on batteries and you have not saved a single penny? There is absolutely no logic in it. Does this mean I am anti some of these devices no not at all. Therefore what I am trying to achieve is to have a path from where a person can see the end goal and achieve step by step success with out hurting monthly expenses. PLEASE I DO NOT THINK YOU CAN'T AFFORD FANCY STUFF. I am only trying to lay out a basic plan from where the most money get wasted and then you can build on with other blocks and pieces and listen to those and then waste money on geyser wize, batteries and heat pumps. But first get the basics in place that you waste council money and not your own. Yes batteries has it place, heat pumps to but only for those who can afford it and who wants to waste their hard earned money.
  15. I understand what you are saying. Guess then one should compare a heat pump with and grid tied geyser. What I am comparing it to is a solar PV generating electricity and on a rainy day you will have even less electricity from solar. Heat pump you either need grid supply or solar.....That is more the line of comparison. I do understand heat pumps are better heat generators than an element. I think and elements are not the best way to generate and transfer heat. If you take a vacuum tube collector then the vacuum seal minimizes heat loss. The fact that the collector is spaced and distanced means that it start collecting from the first ray till the last. In one meter you can have 14 collectors. If you want to be fancy use the fancy water used in radiators to "spread" the heat and have it in a closed loop. It boils down to do you want to spend R30 000 to have a better hot water collector? or can you use double tubes at R 5000.... All these fancy electronic stuff if it is digital, analogue, heat pumps gas you still pay for the energy. Sun is free That is my fundamental problem with geyser wize and the fancy electronics stuff. You may pay less but you only safe when you use the power of the sun.
  16. Thought it is processor controlled and MOS FET's. Interesting. Let me explain, I have a swimming pool pump, a 60 000 koi pond, a water purification plant, a dish washer, Washing machine feed two homes and do I understand that this will affect the inverter? Frightening the power of sales staff. There is a very interesting "quote" : my people are destroyed from lack of knowledge. “Because you have rejected knowledge..." Facts are all truth are parallel. I know I am tiptoeing through the Tulips but I never knew that we got to through away scientific facts to be led by 1/2 truths...... Solar is simple: Syn generates free temperature to heat geysers and swimming pools and nothing beats free. The most cost effective way of generating solar energy is to use the grid of a supplier. To support solar wind is a very good additives. The rest is how much you want to waste to say look at me I wasted a lot of money and now I have a system of which I do not need all the stuff ... I am not a politician but so forgive me the reality is simple think smart and save and us the sun that we are so blessed ith in SA and then if you live in Beaufort or PE or Cape town you can top it up with a wind generator/ Therefore there is know cheaper and better way that to directly heat the water in a geyser. If you do it by a vacuum tube system or a insulated collector plate. Both have pluses and minuses. No heat pump, element or fancy electronics can do it better and cheaper. If a solar panel has max 25% efficiency then you need 75% more area for electrical generation and and and and Proof me wrong and I stick you for a very nice Sushi evening. All on me.
  17. If I understand you use geyser wise to lower the temperature from lets say 65 C to 60C and then you save power. Can I not do that with a R20 thermometer with 3l of hot water? What am I missing. You sau I must spend R900 what I can do with a basic thermometer . I guess that says it all. I can have a very nice Sushi for less than that and still use my "koors pen". Ohh dearame, dearame, dearame the sales team sure knows how to "smokkel" with peoples minds. Maybe I am to dumb to understand the real workings of geyser wise but they will not fool me like that.
  18. Never. On a rainy day you do not generate the same heat as when you heat via vacuum tubes...
  19. When heating water and I refer to solar it is preferable glass vacuum tube with an collector in it heating the water.. Solar to voltage to element is +/- 20% effective. Simple old comparison. Put a chocolate on your cars dash measure the time till its melted. Then do the same with a 150W panel and then you try and melt a chocolate with that.
  20. Oh dear me. .... Let me be more specific. The intention was not to discuss geyser wise as there are far better option than to install geyser wise. A timer and solar collector for the geyser beats geyser wise hands down. You have the added feature of the sun heating and then the cost of geyser wise will be off set to your solar collectors. Which if you are a handy man you can manufacture your self. I did not want to discuss geyser wise as the sun generates far more than what geyser wise saves. One question. Do you know what the savings are there when you DO NOT WANT your geyser off at night... Lets say you are a shift worker then what will you save? Its simple a electronic temperature controller at +/- R4xx will do the same if you want to control your temp exactly else not worth it. That take me back to my statement a fancy timer. Spend the same money on glass tubes and a manifold that you can expand and the savings are much more even in winter. Still want to take me on then get geyser wise to send me a unit and I will create a database and track the two units with scientific facts. The reality is you need X electrical KwHr to heat up Y l of water . You can not get away from that. Therefore you will always pay. What I am suggesting is that sun during the day does it all for freeeeeeeee
  21. Something on getting back. Should you go batteries then the basics are very simple to calculate the ROI. Assuming you use 12 units per night then you require 2 x 5.5Kwhr and 1 2.75. Then you are covering your bases and not for a rainy day. Thus 2 x +/- R25 000 plus +/- R 15 000 a total of R65 000. Assuming you would save an average of R 1600 per month to pay the batteries will take at least 40 months if you buy CASH. (I am not referring to your fin status). That is 3 1/2 years. At +/- 4 years you will start getting issues and then it will cost you more money. To have a good set of batteries with a long life you need more batteries. Therefore Batt should be used IN MY OPINION to fight Eskom load shedding and there are other scenarios. To get 14Kwhr back into the batteries you need +/- 17Kw for the day or @ 2 Kwhr 9 hours of sun shine 9 Hours is not always possible therefore the recommended value to charge your batteries is 3Kwhr and to achieve that you roughly require 5Kwhr solar panels. Then you know your batteries are properly maintained (as for charging). Therefore you will need 16 x 340W panels at +/- R 25 000. The cost then are: Batt: R 65 000 Panels: R 25 000 Inverter: R 12 000 Total: R102 000 Thus to pay off the system at R 1500 per month will take at least 68 months or 7 years. The other scenario is Grid tied: Panels: R 25 000 Inverter: R 12 000 AMI meter: R 11 000 Total R 48 000 Thus to pay off the system at R 1500 per month will take at least 32 months or 3 years. These are not 100% accurate figures and can be calculated more accurate with meter readings. Based on a little experience I would be amazed if there is more than 10% difference. All other costs will be the same for both systems. Hope this help a little.
  22. Roughly calculated 600 X R2.72 = R1632. Important geyser wise is a fancy timer does not truly save electricity. One can achieve the same with a R350 timer ... Thus: The very first step is to install a gas hob. Oven is not that important as from an hour you might use 35/45 power Gas will cost +/- R100 per month electricity much more. For geyser you might want to add another collector/tank but that one can only see with more information. Make sure all you lights are LED/ low power. Plan your meals a head microwave take a lot of power. Not exact science but a microwave of 1.5Kw uses +/- 1unit per hour. Do a defrost and check it on your meter. They DO not SAVE electricity. If your power is still high use gas kettle These steps should drop the KWHr below 600 units as a step. If you are on prepaid do supply me with 1 weeks meter readings please or your electricity bill you can in box me with it. Below is my solar graph: The green line is what I put back into the grid during the day. In Cape Town we had a lot of rain this year and still it was worth it. The red line is what costly. You never mentioned you want to fight outages. Therefore if it was me I would 1st do the above. Once the above is done I would install a grid tie invert.. Depending the way your house faces and other stuff will depend the amount of solar panels. If you install a5Kw grid tie you will see that your account will drop to less than R300 per month. These figures are values based on those who I helped and not exact. One can only do more accurate calculations once one understands: What other equipment uses electricity pool? Grinding normally take more power than welding Fridges use +/- 300W when on depending on the size or .7 units per hour. Take the meter reading when it gets dark and then again when the sun is up then again when the sun sets. Take it for 1 week if possible. Then one can calculate your night usage and recommend a size of solar panels.. Mine is +/- 10 units per night or R600 per month. During the day if I push back 20 units more than my days usage I get a 0 balance. I tested a gas geyser yes it saves but it has its issues. If your geyser is totally off during the day and fully heated by the son then you can increase the size and have more water..... There are many options. The most important is to get rid of the hob that eats power. When you do take the readings on the meter take it at +/- the same time egg 7 at night and 9 in the morning. Hope this help you it a fairly accurate guesstimate. If you can provide those figures then I can assist more.
  23. Best and safest energy. More people died because of alcohol than of nuclear. So I thinke he parked his car infront of a PWR and not coal Would love to build my own EV.
  24. The following picture shows all the layers closed with the vacuum bag. The white rope is a resin barrier that will fill with resin and stop the resin from entering the vacuum pot. The small pieces of masking tape is used to keep the different layers in position as well as the barrier rope. On the outside of the rope is a very good double sided tape to seal of the bag and create a vacuum container. The vacuum bag is pressed onto the tape to ensure an air tight container. So I am ready for the infusion process
  25. Thanks its working again posted 1 new and added to this
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