City of Joburg - Feedback to the grid allowed?

[francois]

Saw this on City Power's Twitter feed the other day:

Looks like they allow feedback to the grid now?

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[Guest]

At what tariff. that is the question lol.

[francois]

Yeah unfortunately I don't have any more info on this, I did ask them but they didn't reply. 

[francois]

Found the attached document with more info. 

EMBEDDED-GENERATION-THE-CITY-POWER-EXPERIENCE.pdf

[Guest]

Awesome!!! The really punt it. I like.

Seems they are looking at a additional few sents per kw bought above >500 instead of a fixed fee. Did I read it right?

[francois]

10 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

Awesome!!! The really punt it. I like.

Seems they are looking at a additional few sents per kw bought above >500 instead of a fixed fee. Did I read it right?

That's what I read too...

[Guest]

1 minute ago, francois said:

That's what I read too...

As much as I like that, if I was in JHB I will be driving consumption to below 500 - then what are they going to do?

Maybe that is why Cpt says naaa, we see you coming TTT, from 2 hills and three mountains away. For you, onetime special, flat monthly connection fee. 

[francois]

Yeah and if you have solar, chances are that you are already below or can get below 500 easily.  

[Guest]

Just now, francois said:

Yeah and if you have solar, chances are that you are already below or can get below 500 easily.  

My case, not even close so to make it worthwhile I have to go grid tied. To prominent a roof to try it illegal.

So the costs are just putting me off. Professional fees, new meter and then the monthly connection fee if you feed back.

And boy o boy, if you get the numbers wrong, as I am already quite efficient, it will be sad. So to ensure the reduction, a further substantial lifestyle change is required - for all the people living here.

To feed back, eish, the numbers are too high. Think Plonk calculate in the vicinity of a R1100 bucks per month.

Off-grid ... better but then the batts are an issue.

Ag tog! Ek gaan sommer kroeg toe en gaan drink 'n bier, nee, 2 en voel beter.

[francois]

Drink 3...een vir my ook.

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[___]

Put in a grid limiter. Then you can remain on your current tariff as long as you already have a prepaid meter. No connection fee or new meter required then. Just finding a professional engineer who won't charge the earth to tick off the items on the paperwork. Like 6 items, most to do with NRS-097-2-1. Next year if all goes well I'm getting new lead crystal bats. Then I'm going to do self consumption. That's the plan. Just need to find that engineer dude.

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[___]

Well, coct will move to a connection fee model anyway. Possibly next year. R200 connection fee, but your under 600kwh price comes down so your connection fee plus first 600kwh works out about the same.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, plonkster said:

first 600kwh

I am currently on 641kWh - R1 222.07 - so it make no sense to add a connection fee to that. Right?

Meter is still the old meter so it will cost to replace it I am told.

When you find the dude ... share.

[___]

41 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

Meter is still the old meter so it will cost to replace it I am told.

Replacing with a normal prepaid meter isn't that expensive. Around 2k I believe.

42 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

I am currently on 641kWh - R1 222.07 - so it make no sense to add a connection fee to that. Right?

Look carefully at the way the fee is structured. There is a connection fee BUT the cost per unit also comes down. The effect is that the first 600kwh always costs the same. They are just making sure they are getting enough money from you to maintain that old grid. If you use more than 600kwh it really doesn't matter what tariff you are on (except lifeline... you don't want to be on lifeline...). It's when you use LESS than 600kwh that the connection fee totally kills your plans.

[Guest]

Bottom line, if connected and feeding back, we are looking at about min R1000 pm, probably annually increasing.

I wonder if it is worth it?

[___]

10 hours ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

Bottom line, if connected and feeding back, we are looking at about min R1000 pm, probably annually increasing.

I wonder if it is worth it?

My view on this.

1: I use a lot of electricity. I could potentially get it down to 15kwh a day but that only happens for two months in the year. The rest of the time I run 25kwh to 35kwh a day. So I won't be using less than 600kwh a month any time soon.

2: The price of electricity below 600kwh is less than battery cost and will remain that way for a few more years. Given the relative difference between inflation (at which battery prices escalate presumably) and electricity (between 2% and 4% above inflation), at least until 2025. If I do the math again I might not get the same number so don't ask about it :-) Given that the first 600kwh is cheaper to buy from the grid, I will likely continue to buy at least that much for several more years. That means my minimum bill will be around 1k (in present terms) anyway... and I'm okay with that because batteries will cost more.

3: Therefore I don't really care how the the bit below R1000 is structured, whether it is R200 connection fee plus R1.33/kwh, or R400 plus R1/kwh. That is neither here not there to me as my total cost is the same.

But... there is always a but. I can easily see it break down. If I upsize my setup slightly, which I want to do in the next year or two, I could potentially cancel out day time consumption completely. That would leave me with only night-time consumption, which for example last night was 12kwh. Times 30, so 330kwh a month, well below 600kwh. Now I end up in a situation that it costs around R2.30/kwh to buy electricity but my PV system only saves me R1/kwh on the same unit. Towards the extreme end of that argument, Suppose you need only 3kwh a day from the grid, or 90kwh a month, which will cost you R500 (approximately). R5.50 a unit. Still below Diesel generator cost.

So it comes down to the connection: Is the availability of grid backup (for large loads, eg using the welding machine) worth R400 a month? I kinda think it is. You pay that much -- and more -- for satellite TV, Internet, Water, Insurance... etc...

It's all about adjusting the mindset and not thinking so much in terms of "per unit" costs, because the grid doesn't work that way. Subsidising the grid maintenance out of unit only works when people use enough juice :-)

[Guest]

My situation differs.

Onetime, for months on end, we where paying about +-650pm for Eskom. Was a hell of a drive to get there at the time. Then the number of people in the house increased and the kids discovered online gaming. (facepalm) But it is better with them home than being out in the streets. (sug) 

So more people more computers at night increased usage dramatically to 28-35kwh. Then more Eskom increases and that was when I "forced / bullied / vloermoer" it down to an average of 26kwh.

Recently we took on the expenses of new fridge / freezers. Now we are on +-21kwh (in summer) with no additional expenditure on solar. Most of the savings are due to freezer off-grid and some more lifestyle changes for I hit the roof (and it is concrete so it hurts) when Eskom creeped above R1500 again.

See, every time we hit 1500+, I want to grid tie. But then when I analise the usage, read the forum searching for ideas, it does not compute. Cooking / vacuum / hairdryers / microwave for me are pure Eskom loads. It is that bastard 24/7 loads the annoys the dinges out of me when I sit, everyone sleeping, and there is 150-250w running. That is when I want to go and switch off the damn DB board, whilst arguing with myself: Are these loads NEEDS or WANTS?!

Maybe I must just go do that. Switch off the DB and see what crawls out of the woodwork the next morning and deal with each case on its own merits.

 

(sug) Ek gaan weer 'n draai by die pub maak.

[SilverNodashi]

23 hours ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

Awesome!!! The really punt it. I like.

Seems they are looking at a additional few sents per kw bought above >500 instead of a fixed fee. Did I read it right?

I didn't see a fee structure on that PDF. Please share what you have

[SilverNodashi]

2 hours ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

My situation differs.

Onetime, for months on end, we where paying about +-650pm for Eskom. Was a hell of a drive to get there at the time. Then the number of people in the house increased and the kids discovered online gaming. (facepalm) But it is better with them home than being out in the streets. (sug) 

So more people more computers at night increased usage dramatically to 28-35kwh. Then more Eskom increases and that was when I "forced / bullied / vloermoer" it down to an average of 26kwh.

Recently we took on the expenses of new fridge / freezers. Now we are on +-21kwh (in summer) with no additional expenditure on solar. Most of the savings are due to freezer off-grid and some more lifestyle changes for I hit the roof (and it is concrete so it hurts) when Eskom creeped above R1500 again.

See, every time we hit 1500+, I want to grid tie. But then when I analise the usage, read the forum searching for ideas, it does not compute. Cooking / vacuum / hairdryers / microwave for me are pure Eskom loads. It is that bastard 24/7 loads the annoys the dinges out of me when I sit, everyone sleeping, and there is 150-250w running. That is when I want to go and switch off the damn DB board, whilst arguing with myself: Are these loads NEEDS or WANTS?!

Maybe I must just go do that. Switch off the DB and see what crawls out of the woodwork the next morning and deal with each case on its own merits.

 

(sug) Ek gaan weer 'n draai by die pub maak.

Until the wife throws away some rotten, frozen food next week and you can't explain it  I'd rather live with 300-400W at night, than to sleep alone!

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, SilverNodashi said:

Until the wife throws away some rotten, frozen food next week and you can't explain it  I'd rather live with 300-400W at night, than to sleep alone!

No idea how you get there? 

Those devices are off grid Silver. IF the batts are flat like in 100% DOD, due to no sun for 4-6 days, they can still can keep cold for 36hours if not opened.

OR I just plug them back into Eskom.

So what am I missing?

PS. And I have SWAMBO's permission to boot. 

So no, 300-400w at night, I am past that one. Next level without a 3000KW array, 10000kW inverter. 

[SilverNodashi]

Just now, The Terrible Triplett said:

No idea how you get there? 

Those devices are off grid Silver. IF the batts are flat like in 100% DOD, due to no sun for 4-6 days, they can still can keep cold for 36hours if not opened.

OR I just plug them back into Eskom.

So what am I missing?

PS. And I have SWAMBO's permission to boot. 

So no, 300-400w at night, I am past that one. Next level without a 3000KW array, 10000kW inverter. 

I tried it a couple times - to switch off the DB. Well everything except the outside lights. The the freezer seems to warm up above the safe freezing point during the night. Did this a couple times, till the wife wanted to make something and ended up throwing away a whole bunch of frozen rotten food. 

So, onto your solution, what does that battery cost, how many cycles does it deliver and how deep does it cycle every night?

[Guest]

27 minutes ago, SilverNodashi said:

So, onto your solution, what does that battery cost, how many cycles does it deliver and how deep does it cycle every night?

OOOO I see, me and the DB board. Ja, that did not work when the fridge/frezer was still on Eskom and I switched them off from 12-6. With you on that one.

All the stuff that has to be on like DSTV, internet, tablet, fridge / freezer, lights are all off-grid. Like in not ever on Eskom.
Computers, QNAP, TV and those type of things are on solar in the day and when there is enough power (battery charging gets done first and on Eskom in the evenings.

Daytime the average is about 600-700w powered in total, wilst batts are being charged. Still balancing the batt charging.

The batts driving the fridge/freezer are T105RE's that I bought for load shedding - so they where wasting away. Not anymore. Hope to get 8-10 years from them.

So am I pretty covered - I THINK.

You know what Silver, I am going to switch the DB off tonite, see who screams at me tomorrow.

If I do not return by next week, please say a few good words here about TTT? 

[___]

Same... Load around 900W most of the evening while things are on... then drops to 350 or so. Wish I could get it down more.

[Guest]

Are we still with Joburg allowing to feed back ??

[___]

19 minutes ago, JDP said:

Are we still with Joburg allowing to feed back ??

I think so... we just did what we always do and discussed other things in the mean time... :-)