Installation of Inverter and batteries outside - is it a good idea?

[PicHopper]

Here is a newbie's problem that needs your kind advice please:

New installation of Solar panels, Inverter and batteries for a retired couple in a retirement village.

Due to the small space available inside the cottage, and the fact that the garage is in a complex and located 2 units away, there is limited options to install.

Installing the inverter and batteries in the bedroom is not a good idea, since apparently they make a noise?

Installing the inverter and batteries in the lounge / dining room - not going to happen!

Installing the inverter and batteries in the kitchen - no space in there!

Installing the inverter and batteries in the passageway - not a good idea as it restricts movement and we don't want someone tripping over them.

Is it possible to install the inverter and batteries outside but under the eaves on the south side of the cottage? It means it might be exposed to rain and wind (not good for electrics?)

Theft is not too much of a concern, as there is good security in the village. There is also a small courtyard around the possible location that is kept locked.

Any suggestions - good or bad idea to place outside? Is it even possible or permitted in terms of electrical regulations?

Thanks for your comments and suggestions.

[mzezman]

You may want to look into the IP6x rated kits, either this

https://solarsupply.co.za/shop/batteries-solar/alpha-batteries/alpha-smiles-5-5kw-inverter-5-74kw-battery/?utm_source=Google Shopping&utm_campaign=Google Shopping Feed&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=58977

or this

https://onlineshop.gcsolar.co.za/product/5kw-growcol-all-in-one-inverter-x2-lithiumbatteries/

Not sure about your budget or use cases but these should be ok. I have no experience with them though so can't speak to the efficiency and usability of the systems. Maybe some guys here have installed them

[Yellow Measure]

The passage may be the best place if you are using slim wall-mounted batteries (like Hubble AM-2), I have seen pictures of passage installs and there is definitely nothing to trip over because nothing is on the ground. Hubbles may also be ideal for this because they have NMC chemistry, leading to a smaller form factor and overall package size.   

[Buyeye]

The main reason outside installations are not more common in this country is theft.

My setup is weather proof but I'm too afraid of theft.

I know in Gauteng they steal gate motors so you are going to need a cage for your system outside even in a complex.

[PicHopper]

10 hours ago, mzezman said:

You may want to look into the IP6x rated kits, either this

https://solarsupply.co.za/shop/batteries-solar/alpha-batteries/alpha-smiles-5-5kw-inverter-5-74kw-battery/?utm_source=Google Shopping&utm_campaign=Google Shopping Feed&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=58977

or this

https://onlineshop.gcsolar.co.za/product/5kw-growcol-all-in-one-inverter-x2-lithiumbatteries/

Not sure about your budget or use cases but these should be ok. I have no experience with them though so can't speak to the efficiency and usability of the systems. Maybe some guys here have installed them

Thank you for those links - I will investigate.............. 
So much to learn - so little time! 

[Bobster.]

15 hours ago, PicHopper said:

Installing the inverter and batteries in the bedroom is not a good idea, since apparently they make a noise?

This is not a rule. I have a Goodwe, it's inside a cupboard, but it's pretty quiet in any event. Sometimes, usually when restarting (doesn't happen often), you will hear a few relays (I presume that's what they are) clicking. So this is model dependent.

The Goodwe is also IP6 water resistant, and it can't be the only such inverter. Obviously you would need to ensure that all the connections to the inverter are made properly so that the seals are not compromised, and they don't advise that you install it so it's directly exposed to rain.

Your installer should be advising on all of this.

Personally, and since this is for elderly people, I wouldn't want gear, and especially the inverter, installed so high that I can't easily see the indicator lights or get at the master switch. Similarly the circuit breakers and fuses serving the inverter.

We are getting ip6 battery packs now. An example (not a cheap one) would be the Tesla Powerwall.

[PicHopper]

56 minutes ago, Bobster said:

This is not a rule. I have a Goodwe, it's inside a cupboard, but it's pretty quiet in any event. Sometimes, usually when restarting (doesn't happen often), you will hear a few relays (I presume that's what they are) clicking. So this is model dependent.

The Goodwe is also IP6 water resistant, and it can't be the only such inverter. Obviously you would need to ensure that all the connections to the inverter are made properly so that the seals are not compromised, and they don't advise that you install it so it's directly exposed to rain.

Your installer should be advising on all of this.

Personally, and since this is for elderly people, I wouldn't want gear, and especially the inverter, installed so high that I can't easily see the indicator lights or get at the master switch. Similarly the circuit breakers and fuses serving the inverter.

We are getting ip6 battery packs now. An example (not a cheap one) would be the Tesla Powerwall.

Thank you for the suggestions.... 

I have also had a look at the Alpha-ESS - this is IP65 rated, but not the batteries. 

There is another called the FoxBox, which is basically an IP65 cabinet with everything built into it. I have not seen any reviews of it here, so not sure if it is that common.

Thanks for the feedback - real life usage feedback is so important so you don't make a mistake! 

 

[Bobster.]

@PicHopperyou got the numbers right! Everywhere I mentioned "IP6", please read "IP65". IP65 is what Goodwe are claiming for their ES inverters.

Another issue that may trouble some is aesthetics Even if you have nice, modern, and modern LOOKING gear, you still end up with an inverter on a wall, some batteries, and a whole lot of trunking. Mine is neatly installed, but it wouldn't make a nice conversation piece in the living room.

Again things like the Tesla win here because they look like a modern appliance, and because you buy the inverter and batteries as one unit, you don't have as many cables running around.

This might not be a problem for everybody, but it can be a problem. I offered my parents my old UPS a while back to get them through load sheds, but they didn't want a big, ugly, metal box sitting in a corner of their fairly... let's say "compact" dwelling. 

I think his is why people tend to put these systems in the garage, basement, or a spare room. 

Edited April 1, 2022 by Bobster
Spelinng

[Bobster.]

5 hours ago, Buyeye said:

I know in Gauteng they steal gate motors so you are going to need a cage for your system outside even in a complex.

I'd want to cage everything, even in a secure complex. All you need is a dog to pee all over everything, or some nosy parker to start poking at things. Plus there are some high voltages involved and you don't want to be in a position where somebody can say that you caused them to get a shock.

In my own home I might do it (but I'd mount the batteries above ground level, though luckily my dogs are on the small side), but not in any place where there are communal open areas.

[PicHopper]

5 hours ago, Bobster said:

@PicHopperyou got the numbers right! Everywhere I mentioned "IP6", please read "IP65". IP65 is what Goodwe are claiming for their ES inverters.

Another issue that may trouble some is aesthetics Even if you have nice, modern, and modern LOOKING gear, you still end up with an inverter on a wall, some batteries, and a whole lot of trunking. Mine is neatly installed, but it wouldn't make a nice conversation piece in the living room.

Again things like the Tesla win here because they look like a modern appliance, and because you buy the inverter and batteries as one unit, you don't have as many cables running around.

This might not be a problem for everybody, but it can be a problem. I offered my parents my old UPS a while back to get them through load sheds, but they didn't want a big, ugly, metal box sitting in a corner of their fairly... let's say "compact" dwelling. 

I think his is why people tend to put these systems in the garage, basement, or a spare room. 

Spot on! (and that's not the dog's name! )
I am also quite sure that there would be a market for a high quality outdoor DB Board type enclosure that is sized appropriately to bundle everything into. The companies that make DB Board boxes should be able to make one a little deeper, so that an inverter and batteries can be bolted to the inside all nice and safely, with a decent lock on the outside. If it looks like a DB, then its not likely to draw attention for theft, either. 
I wonder if there are any of those type solutions out there.................

[PicHopper]

5 hours ago, Bobster said:

I'd want to cage everything, even in a secure complex. All you need is a dog to pee all over everything, or some nosy parker to start poking at things. Plus there are some high voltages involved and you don't want to be in a position where somebody can say that you caused them to get a shock.

In my own home I might do it (but I'd mount the batteries above ground level, though luckily my dogs are on the small side), but not in any place where there are communal open areas.

The area that we're looking at is just outside their kitchen door on the south side of the building. It is sheltered by the eaves, and there is a small drying yard with a security gate that is always locked. 

They have gas bottles installed there that have been quite safe for the past 5 years........... (Not tempting fate!) 

This would keep any unauthorised people away so they don't get a shock, as well as dogs. Pigeons on the other hand will become a problem if installed outside...... That's also a consideration I hadn't thought of! They roost just about anywhere! 

 

[Mier]

Maybe use something like this:

Keter - Wood Grain Multipurpose Outdoor Cabinet | Buy Online in South Africa | takealot.com

Keter High Store Plus Garden Shed | Buy Online in South Africa | takealot.com

 

You may need to add some ventilation / fans to keep the temperature under control, though.

 

 

[PicHopper]

1 hour ago, Mier said:

Maybe use something like this:

Keter - Wood Grain Multipurpose Outdoor Cabinet | Buy Online in South Africa | takealot.com

Keter High Store Plus Garden Shed | Buy Online in South Africa | takealot.com

 

You may need to add some ventilation / fans to keep the temperature under control, though.

 

 

Thanks for this suggestion! I know that these outdoor items will last well, because I have a couple of benches outside. 
The ventilation side makes this an interesting proposition - fan etc. would be needed to cool things down. 

By hiding the inverter and battery you follow the "Out of sight / out of mind" response to theft! 

Good idea!

[Mier]

18 minutes ago, PicHopper said:

Thanks for this suggestion! I know that these outdoor items will last well, because I have a couple of benches outside. 
The ventilation side makes this an interesting proposition - fan etc. would be needed to cool things down. 

By hiding the inverter and battery you follow the "Out of sight / out of mind" response to theft! 

Good idea!

Look at this post on the other forum (even if this is a roofed patio it seems): https://mybroadband.co.za/forum/threads/the-battery-thread-solar-inverter.1071211/post-29116536 - very neat installation.

Also consider the weight of the equipment, especially the battery, so you may want to mount it into the wall, not the cabinet. Which means, possibly weather sealing around (or at least on top of) the cabinet so that water don't run down between the wall and cabinet. If possible, you could mount through the back of the cabinet into the wall, as apposed to cutting the back out completely.

Anyway, there's a way things to consider, but it can be done though and may even look aesthetically pleasing while also being a little better from security and warranty point of view too.

[KLEVA]

@PicHopper - If they live in a security village then there is a good chance they have a Garage, Laundry Room, or some similar room where this can be installed.

SANS10142 (Electrical excluding Solar) does have certain rules, that the Solar SANS (forgot the number) also has to follow. So the electrical portion is not the issue, if the electrical side is conducted correctly.

One of the minor issues with Batteries is that they do need ventilation, I simply put a large 12v fan on one duct (inward near floor) and one on another duct (outward near ceiling) to ensure airflow - like a computer cabinet does.

Normal batteries (without electronics) have no problem sitting outside, just avoid major temperature changes - use wood blocks instead of laying them on concrete floors, put at least some kind of cover over them with ventilation holes that will limit rain / minor ice. If in an area that gets below -4C often in winter, then I just wouldn't. Avoid places with direct sunlight.

Installation on the outside near the coast is problematic for corrosion reasons, but inland this is no longer a problem. But will still use a small sealed shed as advised above. The invertor, even one with IP65 or better, I would still try find a place indoors. It can get damn hot inside those boxes, so use additional ventilation, and keep out of direct sunlight.

[PicHopper]

On 2022/04/04 at 6:35 PM, KLEVA said:

@PicHopper - If they live in a security village then there is a good chance they have a Garage, Laundry Room, or some similar room where this can be installed.

SANS10142 (Electrical excluding Solar) does have certain rules, that the Solar SANS (forgot the number) also has to follow. So the electrical portion is not the issue, if the electrical side is conducted correctly.

One of the minor issues with Batteries is that they do need ventilation, I simply put a large 12v fan on one duct (inward near floor) and one on another duct (outward near ceiling) to ensure airflow - like a computer cabinet does.

Normal batteries (without electronics) have no problem sitting outside, just avoid major temperature changes - use wood blocks instead of laying them on concrete floors, put at least some kind of cover over them with ventilation holes that will limit rain / minor ice. If in an area that gets below -4C often in winter, then I just wouldn't. Avoid places with direct sunlight.

Installation on the outside near the coast is problematic for corrosion reasons, but inland this is no longer a problem. But will still use a small sealed shed as advised above. The invertor, even one with IP65 or better, I would still try find a place indoors. It can get damn hot inside those boxes, so use additional ventilation, and keep out of direct sunlight.

Thank you for the detailed advice....
I think we have identified a location indoors that will work fine. The installation will come with electrical Certificate of Compliance... so holding thumbs, this will comply with all the requirements.

The big issue that I seem to have identified is the distance that electricity needs to flow under DC. This requires heavier cabling to avoid voltage drop and losses (for example between the PV Panels and the Inverter or inverter and batteries. This is less of a problem with AC power, but I would need some guidance on that..

Thanks again!

[Kalahari Meerkat]

1 hour ago, PicHopper said:

The big issue that I seem to have identified is the distance that electricity needs to flow under DC. This requires heavier cabling to avoid voltage drop

only if your inverter is of low voltage type, the Sunsynk 5kW I have has 200+V on both MPPT strings and thus the current is under 10A on either of those... can't remember for certain, but I think we used 4mm^2 wires for the solar panels to inverter and probably a 30m or 40m run ... no issues, operating since middle 2020...

[PicHopper]

12 minutes ago, Kalahari Meerkat said:

only if your inverter is of low voltage type, the Sunsynk 5kW I have has 200+V on both MPPT strings and thus the current is under 10A on either of those... can't remember for certain, but I think we used 4mm^2 wires for the solar panels to inverter and probably a 30m or 40m run ... no issues, operating since middle 2020...

That sounds excellent! 30-40m seems to be a fair distance, and probably what I will need between my inverter and main DB.
Could I perhaps ask if you could share your experience with the Sunsynk App.... I would like to know if the app allows you to for example, charge your batteries to full if load shedding is scheduled....

Thanks!

 

[Kalahari Meerkat]

39 minutes ago, PicHopper said:

Sunsynk App

My install predates the Sunsynk dongle, so no idea what that one would allow, the Solarman dongle and app is really only for monitoring, from what I can see and being in the Kalahari with internet more often then not, being iffy to missing, I don't really use the Solarman app, after all with its 12+ minute granularity, in my eyes, its pretty useless.

There are a few guys on the forum, that have, from what I read between the lines, up/side-graded to the Sunsynk dongle/app hopefully someone with some experience with this app will chime in and let us know what it can do for one, after all, if its only monitoring and no control by end user, I'd say give it a miss and consider other options. Certainly for monitoring and getting an idea how things are going and whether time-shifting certain activities would make sense, keeping the data local with a possible HomeAssistant installation would probably be better, as for control/ensuring batteries are full for a scheduled blackout, that is always a bit of an issue unless you know with 100% certainty when it will occur. I am still not (but expect to be soon) running with batteries that can keep things alive, so this is also something I will need to get to grips with, although, the plan here is to cut the extension lead to the neighbour once we have a battery bank in place that will keep us going...

[PicHopper]

30 minutes ago, Kalahari Meerkat said:

My install predates the Sunsynk dongle, so no idea what that one would allow, the Solarman dongle and app is really only for monitoring, from what I can see and being in the Kalahari with internet more often then not, being iffy to missing, I don't really use the Solarman app, after all with its 12+ minute granularity, in my eyes, its pretty useless.

There are a few guys on the forum, that have, from what I read between the lines, up/side-graded to the Sunsynk dongle/app hopefully someone with some experience with this app will chime in and let us know what it can do for one, after all, if its only monitoring and no control by end user, I'd say give it a miss and consider other options. Certainly for monitoring and getting an idea how things are going and whether time-shifting certain activities would make sense, keeping the data local with a possible HomeAssistant installation would probably be better, as for control/ensuring batteries are full for a scheduled blackout, that is always a bit of an issue unless you know with 100% certainty when it will occur. I am still not (but expect to be soon) running with batteries that can keep things alive, so this is also something I will need to get to grips with, although, the plan here is to cut the extension lead to the neighbour once we have a battery bank in place that will keep us going...

Thank you for your help! I see that there are a couple of options and now there is a Sunsynk Dongle, too -

The following thread that I've started has some info if you're interested from WannabeSolarSparky:

 

[WJP]

You could have used something like this: 

 

https://scoop.co.za/scoop-25u-800mm-deep-outdoor-cabinet-with-4-fans.html