KLEVA Posted May 25, 2022 Posted May 25, 2022 Hi I first want to re-iterate (since my blogs are now missing from this Forum) - Solar Water heating is a far cheaper, enjoyable and less maintenance than any Solar Electricity installations. If this is your first foray into solar, then please, please, please, try solar water heating first - it will prove so many of the concepts, before you get dissapointed by the limitations/expense of solar electricity/power. (I know you came to this forum initially trying to save money, or keep youself going during loadshedding, but bear with me). Solar Water heating is almost a breeze to configure and enjoy. And I will give you some small cost advise below to get the absolute best out of it: You will need a solar geyser - If you don't have one, it can cost nearly 2x the price (more likely 1.5x) of your existing geyser. This is not something you can avoid. Although there are some places/plumbers that will advise that you can install solar water without a solar geyser and adapt it to your normal geyser... They are extremely less effective or just complete scams. [Price - About R14k for 150l] No matter how you try get convinced to use a flat panel design (older style), insist on an evacuated tube installation - The advantages include the efficiency, and the fact that if your geyser gets too hot during summer, you can easily unscrew a few tubes yourself without a plumber. [Price - About R15k for 12 Tubes] Purchase a geyser temperature and/or solar monitoring system to regulate. While I have a lot of issues with design and some forms of timer regulations, there is only one product that will ensure optimisation - The GeyserWise Max (careful, needs to be the Max to control a small pump - see below). I both hate and appreciate this product at the same time... Ugly as hell, no aesthetics (so hide in a cupboard if you can), and the timer is very restrictive especially about days of the week. [Price - about R1.1k] No matter what even the most brilliant plumber on the planet says - Thermosyphon will not provide enough speed or transfer to the geyser - You need a pump! If you took my advise above, then the pump power (on/off) can be attached to the Geyser Wise Max. [Price - about R1.4k] Ok, so based on the above pricing for just a 150l geyseryou are feeling like you are in for a R30k+ installation - SCARY! There are ways to do it cheaper and to do this over time, and there are many things you have available probably already in your home which will reduce the cost... But I want to compare it to your costs and the cost of Solar Electricity... After this fairly pricey installation above, you still can't find a solar electricity installation cheaper (Don't worry, I will wait for you to search and try)... You might have made a big capital outlay, but it will save you about 60kW+ on your electricity bill per month... Dependent on what you pay per month per kW and what your usage is, this outlay could pay off very quickly (2-3 years) - Solar Electricity will not come close, with nearly a 20 year ROI before you gain. This does not mean that I discount Solar Electricity, I just think that starting with Solar Water Heating is just a far more "bang for buck" starting point. Please search for my other posts regarding Batteries which will explain the almost exponential cost for Solar Electricity. Solar power (or any other source of energy) is awesome, but we need a place to store it... A Geyser makes it easy as we only want hot water. Quote
Yellow Measure Posted May 25, 2022 Posted May 25, 2022 Interesting post, thank you. Indeed, heating hot water consumes much energy. I have a question though: In my own research, I have encountered many people who have done the solar geyser thing. Many of them also installed electrical solar energy 1 to 3 years later. In all cases, they were very happy with their solar water heating at the time, but wanted more control over their utility bill. They all remarked, after the electrical solar install, that they wish that they had gone for solar electricity from the start. Much of this was because they now had to now find ways to get around the footprint of the tubes on the roof, whilst others stated that they felt that had they gone for solar electricity first, they would not have bothered with the solar water heating tubes. Some (albeit a few) actually felt that the tubes were a waste of money. What do you say to this? zsde, Speedster and BritishRacingGreen 3 Quote
KLEVA Posted May 25, 2022 Author Posted May 25, 2022 Hi @YellowTapemeasure & Others Solar Water heating always proves a cost benefit, you start saving from the first month. You actually proved my point in the way you said your customer was happy with the solar water install. Solar Electricity is awesome, and I wouldn't change my attitude towards it, but solar electricity is expensive and the cost/return is no where near viable. It is only us dedicated freaks that keep trying. However Solar Water heating has reached a point where the cost (internally) outweighs the Municipal/Eskom price... I repeat, I love playing with Solar Electricity and spending money way beyond what I can ever recover on it, just to play. The only viable consumer form of saving at the moment is Solar Water Heating... We may get better later... Quote
KLEVA Posted May 25, 2022 Author Posted May 25, 2022 @YellowTapemeasure - I would be happy to discuss the apparent failed installs above, or to discuss correct installs.... I am not a Plumber but an Engineer in a few fields, maybe I can spot a problem or a fix? Quote
KLEVA Posted May 25, 2022 Author Posted May 25, 2022 PS: Tubes vs Flat Panel - No contest... Flat Panels are cheaper, but about 75% less efficient... I know people have their preferences, but I can prove the results as my old flat-panel is still connected (ie: I can switch between Flat Panel and Tubes), I originally also thought that the Tubes were a hype, but 4 years later I am convinced. Quote
Speedster Posted May 25, 2022 Posted May 25, 2022 I don't think his question only relates to failed installs. I am busy installing solar PV at my place and decided to rather spend the R20k or so of a solar geyser on more panels. This way the extra energy can heat the water, but also be available for other uses. R20k buys about 3kW of panels which give 15kWh most days, more than enough to heat a geyser and then some. Quote
Speedster Posted May 25, 2022 Posted May 25, 2022 3 minutes ago, KLEVA said: PS: Tubes vs Flat Panel - No contest... Flat Panels are cheaper, but about 75% less efficient... I know people have their preferences, but I can prove the results as my old flat-panel is still connected (ie: I can switch between Flat Panel and Tubes), I originally also thought that the Tubes were a hype, but 4 years later I am convinced. I had both flat panels and tubes at my previous house and, make no mistake, loved them both. They saved me a heck of a lot of cash. EV tubes do have their own drawbacks though. A couple of times the battery connected to the geyserwise failed and another time the little pv circulation pump broke. On each of those occasions the pipes got so hot the insulation melted off. Quote
Yellow Measure Posted May 25, 2022 Posted May 25, 2022 13 minutes ago, KLEVA said: Solar Water heating always proves a cost benefit, you start saving from the first month. Thank you for your responses. Without trying to be argumentative, much the same can be said for solar. 14 minutes ago, KLEVA said: solar electricity is expensive and the cost/return is no where near viable. Yet for the average SA citizen, both require capital outlay, and both may be expensive. One being more CAPEX than the other does not necessarily mean that it is not viable because of the higher expense. Can you provide links to studies which supports this viewpoint? You also indicate that the "cost / return is no where viable". This is quite an absolute statement. In my own case, I installed a solar electricity solution. I never evaluated the expenditure based on cost returns or ROI because I was not "investing" in anything, other than my ability to generate an income. I preferred to see it as a "cost of doing business", a necessary expense. It's like my laptop PC, quite a large CAPEX, loses value very fast, not a great investment, but very necessary for me to do work which generates income. At the time, I do admit that I already had a heatpump which is very efficient, so my perspectives may be skewed vs yours. 14 minutes ago, KLEVA said: Solar Water heating has reached a point where the cost (internally) outweighs the Municipal/Eskom price... Building regs today mandate the installation of a solar geyser, and a home isn't compliant without it. I get that, and I also understand that much of it is also subsidised (just travelling part Alexandra today, it is almost difficult to spot all the DSTV dishes because of the solar geysers on the roof). I also agree that solar water heating is a good thing, far better than an Eskom controlled geyser. But once again, much the same can be said for solar electricity, it definitely outweighs the municipal/Eskom price, and is far more reliable to boot. Plus the utility of it, being able to direct energy to hot water means that I can have a lovely hot shower every morning, and then being able direct it to powering my expensive laptop PC, to communicate with parties all over the world and in so doing generate income for myself and revenue for SARS, who in turn provide (various) subsidies for the folk in Alexandra. So I guess that my point is that, if it weren't for solar electricity, all I can do is look and smell good. Fresh as a daisy. But thanks to solar electricity, I can not only do that, I can help to keep the economy on the roll. To me that's very viable. zsde, Leshen and Scorp007 3 Quote
Leshen Posted May 25, 2022 Posted May 25, 2022 3 hours ago, KLEVA said: Solar Water heating always proves a cost benefit, you start saving from the first month. You actually proved my point in the way you said your customer was happy with the solar water install. Solar Electricity is awesome, and I wouldn't change my attitude towards it, but solar electricity is expensive and the cost/return is no where near viable. It is only us dedicated freaks that keep trying. The only issue with the evacuated tubes is that when Eskom is down, they cannot power your wifi router, TV, lights, etc which many people find essential. If you have say a R5000pm elec bill, and you invest R250 000 into a solar system which will reduce that bill to R500pm with good energy management. If you have an access bond and at prime lending of 8.25%, you access R250 000, the repayment is R2130pm. Add the R500 to Eskom and the total is R2630pm which is R2370pm less than the original R5000pm towards Eskom. So it is financially viable. You get to heat up your water, Wi-Fi stays on, no more darkness, TV stays on, kids can do their homework, the wives are happy etc etc. Quote
KLEVA Posted May 26, 2022 Author Posted May 26, 2022 2 hours ago, Leshen said: The only issue with the evacuated tubes is that when Eskom is down, they cannot power your wifi router, TV, lights, etc which many people find essential. If you have say a R5000pm elec bill, and you invest R250 000 into a solar system which will reduce that bill to R500pm with good energy management. If you have an access bond and at prime lending of 8.25%, you access R250 000, the repayment is R2130pm. Add the R500 to Eskom and the total is R2630pm which is R2370pm less than the original R5000pm towards Eskom. So it is financially viable. You get to heat up your water, Wi-Fi stays on, no more darkness, TV stays on, kids can do their homework, the wives are happy etc etc. Ouch, what size is your geyser? R250k will do a solar water install for an entire hospital Quote
KLEVA Posted May 26, 2022 Author Posted May 26, 2022 6 hours ago, YellowTapemeasure said: In my own research, I have encountered many people who have done the solar geyser thing. Many of them also installed electrical solar energy 1 to 3 years later. In all cases, they were very happy with their solar water heating at the time, but wanted more control over their utility bill. They all remarked, after the electrical solar install, that they wish that they had gone for solar electricity from the start. Much of this was because they now had to now find ways to get around the footprint of the tubes on the roof, whilst others stated that they felt that had they gone for solar electricity first, they would not have bothered with the solar water heating tubes. Some (albeit a few) actually felt that the tubes were a waste of money. What do you say to this? Yes, bad placement is a problem, but a plumber could resolve by moving to another spot to optimise roof space and sunlight for the panel install. Unless you have a decent high power invertor/batteries++, you wouldn't connect a geyser to your solar electrical installation due to the high draw, so solar electricity won't heat your water. A solar water installation takes much less space and much lower cost than the equivalent solar electrical system. Quote
KLEVA Posted May 26, 2022 Author Posted May 26, 2022 I can't find the post that mentioned a failed GeyserWise battery and pump damaging insulation, but here is my response: Failed systems happen, even with Solar Electrical, so a failed battery or pump on a Solar water system can happen... But so can a failed invertor or damaged batteries (both of which are far more expensive to replace). I know not practical for everyone, but I run a 12VDC central line through my home, which feeds ANYTHING that can take a 12VDC input (like DSTV decoders, Alarm, Gate Motors, etc). My GeyserWise pump is attached to that. But you can also get 220VAC pumps for a GeyserWise, it is just a relay after all. One oddity and weird positive (since I live near Durban) is that if the temperature outside (at the tubes) drops to below 3 Celcius, the GeyserWise will pump water back to the tubes to prevent freezing of pipes. Pump failures are uncommon if a decent pump installed, I didn't even get an expensive one. Battery failure is common, but like solar electrical there are ways to mitigate this... Originally (before my central 12V line), I had a 50W solar panel on the roof with a cheap Ellies battery charger that maintained the little 14Ah 12VDC battery attached to the GeyserWise. General Maintenance on any system with batteries needs to be observed, we do it with our cars already to ensure a standing car doesn't go flat, we just need to change our mindset and do that with any system that has a battery attached. Quote
KLEVA Posted May 26, 2022 Author Posted May 26, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, Leshen said: The only issue with the evacuated tubes is that when Eskom is down, they cannot power your wifi router, TV, lights, etc which many people find essential. Just joking (maybe?): A thermoelectric system could provide you power based on heat transferance... Just need the right equipment (where? I have no idea!) Not Joking: Also, "essential"??? Think people have forgotten what essential means... Lights maybe, but those other things are NOT essential, water and boiled drinkable, washable water are. Remember KZN has just gone through nearly 2 months of devastation... People weren't asking for WiFi or DSTV, just water, hot water, and lights. Trust me, in chaos, it proves your essentials. Edited May 26, 2022 by KLEVA Quote
KLEVA Posted May 26, 2022 Author Posted May 26, 2022 5 hours ago, YellowTapemeasure said: But once again, much the same can be said for solar electricity, it definitely outweighs the municipal/Eskom price, and is far more reliable to boot. Plus the utility of it, being able to direct energy to hot water means that I can have a lovely hot shower every morning, and then being able direct it to powering my expensive laptop PC, to communicate with parties all over the world and in so doing generate income for myself and revenue for SARS, who in turn provide (various) subsidies for the folk in Alexandra. So I guess that my point is that, if it weren't for solar electricity, all I can do is look and smell good. Fresh as a daisy. But thanks to solar electricity, I can not only do that, I can help to keep the economy on the roll. To me that's very viable. Utility I can 100% get behind, but as mentioned above, there are very few Solar Electrical systems that can/should directly connect a Geyser. So your "hot" shower would have definately been cold. If you had a Solar Electrical system large enough to power a 3kW or bigger geyser, then of course you have power for the rest of your home, but at what cost? Probably way out the range of someone just looking to start, or with a R100k or less budget? PS: I am not interested in supporting a Utility that, during a crisis, could only provide me with basic power for 8 of 60 days during these floods, and SARS??? No, I won't turn this into a political discussion... Lets just discuss Solar Power, it calms me Quote
KLEVA Posted May 26, 2022 Author Posted May 26, 2022 Ok, last post (ummmm, maybe) on this... Think about the space needed on your roof to install 3kW+ of solar panels just to heat a single geyser? Not everybody has that kind of space available to them, even if they can afford a invertor and batteries large enough. The cost/space/maintenance of converting Solar Electricity to Geyser Heat just doesn't justify the same issue when compared to Solar Heating. I could go on about efficiency and many things, but practicality (and finances) will keep proving that this should be a first step for anyone starting on their trip into Solar power. Quote
Leshen Posted May 26, 2022 Posted May 26, 2022 3 hours ago, KLEVA said: Ouch, what size is your geyser? R250k will do a solar water install for an entire hospital Seems like you completely missed the point. Quote
Leshen Posted May 26, 2022 Posted May 26, 2022 2 hours ago, KLEVA said: Just joking (maybe?): A thermoelectric system could provide you power based on heat transferance... Just need the right equipment (where? I have no idea!) Not Joking: Also, "essential"??? Think people have forgotten what essential means... Lights maybe, but those other things are NOT essential, water and boiled drinkable, washable water are. Remember KZN has just gone through nearly 2 months of devastation... People weren't asking for WiFi or DSTV, just water, hot water, and lights. Trust me, in chaos, it proves your essentials. Next time I receive a call for a solar installation, I’ll be sure to tell the owner to rather install a solar geyser because during a possible flood it would be more beneficial. I am sure it would make a lot of sense to them. zsde 1 Quote
Speedster Posted May 26, 2022 Posted May 26, 2022 3 hours ago, KLEVA said: Ok, last post (ummmm, maybe) on this... Think about the space needed on your roof to install 3kW+ of solar panels just to heat a single geyser? Not everybody has that kind of space available to them, even if they can afford a invertor and batteries large enough. The cost/space/maintenance of converting Solar Electricity to Geyser Heat just doesn't justify the same issue when compared to Solar Heating. I could go on about efficiency and many things, but practicality (and finances) will keep proving that this should be a first step for anyone starting on their trip into Solar power. You're missing the point. If you only plan to heat water then yes, solar geyser is the way to go. If you want to do any form of solar PV then it's better to ditch the solar geyser and spend the money on more panels. This way you use that money to heat water AND reduce your other electricity costs. Piper, Leshen and zsde 3 Quote
Speedster Posted May 26, 2022 Posted May 26, 2022 4 hours ago, KLEVA said: I can't find the post that mentioned a failed GeyserWise battery and pump damaging insulation, but here is my response: Failed systems happen, even with Solar Electrical, so a failed battery or pump on a Solar water system can happen... But so can a failed invertor or damaged batteries (both of which are far more expensive to replace). I know not practical for everyone, but I run a 12VDC central line through my home, which feeds ANYTHING that can take a 12VDC input (like DSTV decoders, Alarm, Gate Motors, etc). My GeyserWise pump is attached to that. But you can also get 220VAC pumps for a GeyserWise, it is just a relay after all. One oddity and weird positive (since I live near Durban) is that if the temperature outside (at the tubes) drops to below 3 Celcius, the GeyserWise will pump water back to the tubes to prevent freezing of pipes. Pump failures are uncommon if a decent pump installed, I didn't even get an expensive one. Battery failure is common, but like solar electrical there are ways to mitigate this... Originally (before my central 12V line), I had a 50W solar panel on the roof with a cheap Ellies battery charger that maintained the little 14Ah 12VDC battery attached to the GeyserWise. General Maintenance on any system with batteries needs to be observed, we do it with our cars already to ensure a standing car doesn't go flat, we just need to change our mindset and do that with any system that has a battery attached. My point was simply that evacuated tubes aren't perfect either. If loadshedding kicks in and your battery has died you're in trouble. Quote
PowerUser Posted May 26, 2022 Posted May 26, 2022 @KLEVA you are completely wrong! You cannot compare a solar geyser with a whole house solar installation, which supplies a geyser as well. If you want to compare, you can provide us with comparison between evacuated tubes and solar electricity/power for the geyser ONLY. Then your point might.... or might not prove right. But other than that, you are just trolling around and I see why your blogs have been deleted. zsde, Leshen and BritishRacingGreen 3 Quote
Pietpower Posted May 26, 2022 Posted May 26, 2022 11 hours ago, Speedster said: I don't think his question only relates to failed installs. I am busy installing solar PV at my place and decided to rather spend the R20k or so of a solar geyser on more panels. This way the extra energy can heat the water, but also be available for other uses. R20k buys about 3kW of panels which give 15kWh most days, more than enough to heat a geyser and then some. Exactly this. If you are already installing a solar system then it is cheaper to just add panels. I use about 10kWh to heat 200l for 5 people so that would be an investment of about R14k. Can't install a solar water heating system for that. Both have the drawback that you can't heat water at night (although you can add expensive battery capacity for an electric solar system which is not viable) You need increased storage capacity for both to be happy in the long run. Quote
Pietpower Posted May 26, 2022 Posted May 26, 2022 6 hours ago, KLEVA said: Also, "essential"??? Think people have forgotten what essential means... Lights maybe, but those other things are NOT essential, water and boiled drinkable, washable water are. Remember KZN has just gone through nearly 2 months of devastation... People weren't asking for WiFi or DSTV, just water, hot water, and lights. Trust me, in chaos, it proves your essentials. Where do you draw the line on "essential"? For a homeless person a house is not an essential item but a nice to have. For me working from home wifi is an essential item. I hate the Saffer attitude that we can get by with less. To make progress we need more 'essentials' in our life. PS I like the Saffer attitude of not giving up. Don't confuse the two. Quote
Leshen Posted May 26, 2022 Posted May 26, 2022 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Pietpower said: Where do you draw the line on "essential"? For a homeless person a house is not an essential item but a nice to have. For me working from home wifi is an essential item. I hate the Saffer attitude that we can get by with less. To make progress we need more 'essentials' in our life. PS I like the Saffer attitude of not giving up. Don't confuse the two. Not very “Kleva” Edited May 26, 2022 by Leshen . zsde 1 Quote
Bobster. Posted May 26, 2022 Posted May 26, 2022 Some years ago I had a solar geyser installed. We are talking 12 years or more ago, so I'm guessing it wasn't evacuated tubes. It was a geyser on top of the roof, with no need for a pump between the heating tubes and the geyser. This worked well. But sometimes too well. On a really hot day pressure would build up in that geyser as the water heated. There was some sort of pop off valve to relieve this pressure, but it resulted in lots of hot water streaming down the roof. The first time it happened I thought the geyser had burst. I'm guessing now that things have moved on a bit, and there is a way of stopping the water getting too hot and thus the resulting pressure build up. Quote
Speedster Posted May 26, 2022 Posted May 26, 2022 48 minutes ago, Bobster said: Some years ago I had a solar geyser installed. We are talking 12 years or more ago, so I'm guessing it wasn't evacuated tubes. It was a geyser on top of the roof, with no need for a pump between the heating tubes and the geyser. This worked well. But sometimes too well. On a really hot day pressure would build up in that geyser as the water heated. There was some sort of pop off valve to relieve this pressure, but it resulted in lots of hot water streaming down the roof. The first time it happened I thought the geyser had burst. I'm guessing now that things have moved on a bit, and there is a way of stopping the water getting too hot and thus the resulting pressure build up. Geyserwise controlllers have a setting to cool the water at night back down to 50 degrees to avoid this scenario. Quote
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