I'm at the Sally Ann in Emmarentia. I got dragged into this. I'm no expert, but they need some advice. 

There's a back story here which we needn't go in to, save that late last year they were out of water for days due to municipal outages. Enter Mission of Mercy who gave them borehole water. 

As far as I can see, the borehole feeds a jojo tank (5000l). There is then a pump which takes the water out of the bottom of the jojo and runs into the inlet to the property. (there is a system of valves on the property boundary so that you can fill the jojo from mains, borehole or both). The output of that pump services the whole building (multiple bathrooms, multiple geysers). The output from the pump passes through filters and then some sort of steriliser (has warning stickers about UV) 

So 

1) They don't get water when there is load shedding because that pump doesn't run. Pump is 1.1kw. Purifier is marked as 55w. There is North facing roof close by. Is there a way to get this onto PV? Approximate cost? 

2) The pump runs ALL the time. This is costing them money. 1.1kw * 24 * 30. This seems wrong to me. Surely the pump should cut out when there is no demand? This, to me, says "leak". The pump has a device which looks like a controller...

So why does this run continually? Can that be right? 

If we switch borehole off, mains on, the meter runs all the time (I'm told). This suggests a leak somewhere on the property. 

There is also tampering, possible internal sabotage going on. When I got here this morning, borehole feed was turned off, municipal supply on, all circuit breakers on the DB for the pump were off. 

Residents are not entirely happy because they can't shower during load shedding. Management are unhappy because they are not cash flush, and they want to keep costs down and would like residents to work with them. 

Edited January 7, 20232 yr by Bobster.

8 hours ago, Bobster. said:

I'm at the Sally Ann in Emmarentia. I got dragged into this. I'm no expert, but they need some advice. 

There's a back story here which we needn't go in to, save that late last year they were out of water for days due to municipal outages. Enter Mission of Mercy who gave them borehole water. 

As far as I can see, the borehole feeds a jojo tank (5000l). There is then a pump which takes the water out of the bottom of the jojo and runs into the inlet to the property. (there is a system of valves on the property boundary so that you can fill the jojo from mains, borehole or both). The output of that pump services the whole building (multiple bathrooms, multiple geysers). The output from the pump passes through filters and then some sort of steriliser (has warning stickers about UV) 

So 

1) They don't get water when there is load shedding because that pump doesn't run. Pump is 1.1kw. Purifier is marked as 55w. There is North facing roof close by. Is there a way to get this onto PV? Approximate cost? 

2) The pump runs ALL the time. This is costing them money. 1.1kw * 24 * 30. This seems wrong to me. Surely the pump should cut out when there is no demand? This, to me, says "leak". The pump has a device which looks like a controller...

So why does this run continually? Can that be right? 

If we switch borehole off, mains on, the meter runs all the time (I'm told). This suggests a leak somewhere on the property. 

There is also tampering, possible internal sabotage going on. When I got here this morning, borehole feed was turned off, municipal supply on, all circuit breakers on the DB for the pump were off. 

Residents are not entirely happy because they can't shower during load shedding. Management are unhappy because they are not cash flush, and they want to keep costs down and would like residents to work with them. 

No point in trying to do an estimate before the leak is sorted out. Get some reducers and a pressure meter to see if pressure comes up and perhaps remain constant. Also get a stop cock on the pump outlet further away but not too far from the pressure meter. It might well be that the pressure controller is faulty without leaks and that's why the pump runs 24/7. Not sure if this controller is adjustable but with a maximum of 10 bar I would think so. If it can adjust for 4.5 bar as per the pressure meter. 

Next step would be to measure the power used by the pump per 24h as this will drive the size of panels and their storage. 3kw inverter with 2x short term peak should work as pumps don't have a high starting load. 

If sabotage then that must be addressed before getting residents to assist for the good of all. 

Just a few of my thoughts. 

Edited January 7, 20232 yr by Scorp007

Thanks for pointing out what should have been obvious. Get the leak fixed first. Then the pump should switch on as necessary and will need much less backup.

I'm not competent to do the pressure test, but I understand that the guys who did the borehole have been in to check all their work, and they think the leak is in the building somewhere. 

If there is no leak to be found, then there is the possibility of an internal leak inside the pressure pump itself, i.e. a seal on the one way valve could cause this too

 

I think I'm missing something. There must be two pumps no? One to get the water out of the hole into that jojo? 

And somewhere there's a breaker for that pump. 

People fiddling with valves & breakers can really put the kibosh on this thing. 

31 minutes ago, Bobster. said:

I think I'm missing something. There must be two pumps no? One to get the water out of the hole into that jojo? 

And somewhere there's a breaker for that pump. 

People fiddling with valves & breakers can really put the kibosh on this thing. 

Yes, there should be a borehole pump down the hole and it should have a pressure valve or float switch to turn off when the jojo is full or it will run permanently... and yes, it should have its own breaker.

Not sure if the pressure switch in your pic is adjustable to set the max pressure for it to turn off or if it needs 10bar which is a lot (100m). Perhaps that little pump can't get that high. My pressure switch has a gauge you turn to set the start and stop pressures manually.

If the pump is running full time due to a leak then it is a big leak because if the presser switch is set correctly it will build up pressure and switch off and then after a few seconds or minutes, depending on the leak, it will switch on again, build up pressure and switch off again and keep doing that over and over.

If the pressure pump from the jojo to the building is continously running, it could also be the pressure switch that has failed? one can try the restart button, to try reset? once at pressure it should turn off provided no pressure being lost.  It could also be leaking tap(s), or slightly overflowing toilet cistern  etc . Have also had a ooster pump pressure switch failure, and found it  was more cost effective to replace the pump and switch as they came as a combo, 0.37kw pump.

If the tank runs dry it could be an air lock in the booster pump and this can also cause it to run continously.

Is the borehole pump also running all the time? Any idea how its controlled to turn off /on?  maybe a  float switch in the Jojo?

Thanks all for your input.

I have no idea about the pump in the borehole. It will be interesting to find out about that. It sounds like there must be a cable from the jojo to thst pump. 

Would turning the power to the jojo off not have the effect of resetting the pressure switch? 

I have asked management at the home to put a padlock on the DB for the pump on the output side of the jojo and to monitor the running of the pump. 

An update and another thanks for all the input. The staff identified another 11 leaks yesterday. So first priority now is to fix these leaks. 

Glad you found the issue. Might be a good idea to take the opportunity to put a gate valve on the pump output to make it easier to isolate and test the pressure switch and also troubleshoot in future.

It might also become an issue if you lock access to the pressure switch because every time the jojo runs empty someone needs to press the reset button or cycle the power to it.

1 minute ago, jumper said:

It might also become an issue if you lock access to the pressure switch because every time the jojo runs empty someone needs to press the reset button or cycle the power to it.

Thanks for pointing that out. There was supposed to be a proper handover of the system after it was installed, but for various reasons it didn't happen. 

Am I right in thinking that once the leaks are resolved and that pump isn't running all the time, the chances of the jojo running empty will be reduced?

39 minutes ago, Bobster. said:

Am I right in thinking that once the leaks are resolved and that pump isn't running all the time, the chances of the jojo running empty will be reduced?

Yeah it will definitely reduce the possibility if less water is being used. The way the system is set up it seems there is a float switch to switch on the borehole pump whenever the jojo is used, so it shouldn't run dry often, only if there is a problem with the borehole pump itself or if more water is used than it can deliver to the jojo.