Hi , looking for good gel batterie brand - 200h 

any suggestions pls (:) ) this is for back-up system during load shedding. For a small system  

I wouldn't bother, with stage 4-6 loadshedding, you're better off investing in a Lithium battery

Its not worthwhile for an old age flat to use lithium  They are suffering the most during load sheddung. Management of old age homes do not invest currently in solutions. My mom is on an oxy machine. And the old age home do not allow solar. So this is then the best route to go 

 

1 hour ago, Madek said:

Its not worthwhile for an old age flat to use lithium 

The problem is that under stage 4 and 6 etc. with 4 hour outages there is unlikely to be enough time to recharge the Gel battery, unless you can afford totally go overboard with the kWh sitting there, so let's assume you want to consume 400W/hour times 4 hours, would be 1.6kWh to treat the batteries nicely call that 10%, so 16kWh worth of Gell batteries and you have half a chance of getting 3 years life out of them, at 12V, that'll be close to 1400Ah's worth... if you have the right inverter the lithium may look more worthwhile now... maybe... at stage 4/6, if your draw is say the 400W/hour I speculated, I'm pretty happy to guarantee that a single 200Ah Gel battery will not last a year.

2 hours ago, Madek said:

Its not worthwhile for an old age flat to use lithium  They are suffering the most during load sheddung. Management of old age homes do not invest currently in solutions. My mom is on an oxy machine. And the old age home do not allow solar. So this is then the best route to go 

 

Everyone I know who went with trolley style setups and cheaper lead acid/gel batteries have been lucky to get 6 months use with stage 4(ish) loadshedding.

Stage 6 makes it much much worse.

So you need to decide how much money you're willing to waste

Hi. Lithium might be a safer option

5 hours ago, Madek said:

Its not worthwhile for an old age flat to use lithium  They are suffering the most during load sheddung. Management of old age homes do not invest currently in solutions. My mom is on an oxy machine. And the old age home do not allow solar. So this is then the best route to go 

 

So how about a rethink? What if you could get say a 3kw inverter (say a Kodak) and a 5kwh lithium battery, then get that wired in so that it supports lights and some plug circuits. Now she has lights and TV on all the time, as well as the important machine, maybe the fridge too. So a lot more protection and you can sleep a little more soundly at night, and you won't have to be shopping for gel batteries on an annual basis. 

Edited January 11, 20232 yr by Bobster.

20 hours ago, Bobster. said:

So how about a rethink? What if you could get say a 3kw inverter (say a Kodak) and a 5kwh lithium battery, then get that wired in so that it supports lights and some plug circuits. Now she has lights and TV on all the time, as well as the important machine, maybe the fridge too. So a lot more protection and you can sleep a little more soundly at night, and you won't have to be shopping for gel batteries on an annual basis. 

Hi, what about buying SLA drop in replacement,  12.8v 100ah lifePo4 battery.. are these batteries worth buying rather than buying gel or lead acid.. are they worth the money? 

33 minutes ago, Derek Ramos said:

Hi, what about buying SLA drop in replacement,  12.8v 100ah lifePo4 battery.. are these batteries worth buying rather than buying gel or lead acid.. are they worth the money? 

Pricing on the drop-ins have skyrocketed, and it's almost better value for money to buy the standalones instead (e.g. I've seent the Blunova ones go from 8k to 12k in price online). The drop-ins also seem to be out of stock more often.

But yes, they are a far better option than throwing your money at the lead-acids/gels with loadshedding now a part of life for us

Hi. In 2018. We had a small inverter and 4 fel batteries as a back up system (i can not stand the sound of a generator). We replaced the gell batteries with lithium when we went full solar. So then we latterly gave away these batteries to people with no power at a small holding. My husband installed solar panels for them in 2020., and ever since they all full on those gell batteries not having any power issues. These batteries are going for their 5 year 

57 minutes ago, Derek Ramos said:

Hi, what about buying SLA drop in replacement,  12.8v 100ah lifePo4 battery.. are these batteries worth buying rather than buying gel or lead acid.. are they worth the money? 

They can certainly be run harder and will last longer than gel or lead-acid batteries. Check the specs, but I'd think they can also be charged faster assuming that your inverter has the capability to supply the current.

Part of the alternative I proposed is that that inverter can charge the batteries faster, and you will have more battery to start off with. Thus you are less prone to the twin problems of batteries being run down past 50% of capacity, and there not being enough time to recharge between sheds.

Back to the drop-ins. I see the price going up, stock levels going down because of demand, and some sights saying "phone for pricing". But if they last 5 to 6 years, then they are probably still a worthwhile proposition if you're replacing your gels on an annual basis.

2 minutes ago, Bobster. said:

Back to the drop-ins. I see the price going up, stock levels going down because of demand, and some sights saying "phone for pricing". But if they last 5 to 6 years, then they are probably still a worthwhile proposition if you're replacing your gels on an annual basis.

Some might interpret the above as "buy now, because the price is only going to go one way."

41 minutes ago, Bobster. said:

Back to the drop-ins. I see the price going up, stock levels going down because of demand, and some sights saying "phone for pricing". But if they last 5 to 6 years, then they are probably still a worthwhile proposition if you're replacing your gels on an annual basis.

So a family member has a small inverter that can charge at 20a and 40a… he has now gone through 6 lead acid batteries in the past 3 years.. because the funds are limited he decided to rather just buy new batteries instead of upgrading his system so I convinced him to spend a little more and get lithium. we have just bought these 

Price was far better than any other brands and I figured it should be okay as the lithium cells are new and it has a bms. What do you think? We had to move quick as they only had two in stock. 

51 minutes ago, Bobster. said:

They can certainly be run harder and will last longer than gel or lead-acid batteries. Check the specs, but I'd think they can also be charged faster assuming that your inverter has the capability to supply the current.

Part of the alternative I proposed is that that inverter can charge the batteries faster, and you will have more battery to start off with. Thus you are less prone to the twin problems of batteries being run down past 50% of capacity, and there not being enough time to recharge between sheds.

Back to the drop-ins. I see the price going up, stock levels going down because of demand, and some sights saying "phone for pricing". But if they last 5 to 6 years, then they are probably still a worthwhile proposition if you're replacing your gels on an annual basis.

Pls help with more detail on this batteries. I dont know them. Maybe reliable brand

4 minutes ago, Madek said:

Pls help with more detail on this batteries. I dont know them. Maybe reliable brand

Well, I'm talking about batteries that are the same sort of size and have the same terminals as GEL or SLAs used in trolley inverters, but have lithium cells. 

There's been some discussion about these on the forum
https://powerforum.co.za/topic/16102-lead-acid-replacement/

Or here
https://powerforum.co.za/topic/15374-installing-revov-12v-drop-in-lifepos-on-mecer-lobo-inverter/

The latter discusses the need to have a separate balancer if you have a pair of batteries (this is not an issue if you have just one).

There is an increasing number of offerings on the market. I have no experience so can't recommend a brand, but I have no doubt that some brands are superior. I have seen 200ah models.

Because they are lithium the safe DOD is much lower, and generally life should be significantly better.

25 minutes ago, Derek Ramos said:

So a family member has a small inverter that can charge at 20a and 40a… he has now gone through 6 lead acid batteries in the past 3 years.. because the funds are limited he decided to rather just buy new batteries instead of upgrading his system so I convinced him to spend a little more and get lithium. we have just bought these 

Well that's a bit extreme. Load shedding was not so bad 3 years ago. Is he perhaps backing up more than the system was designed for?

But in general people with experience in back up power will tell you that the load shedding we now have is taking a toll on batteries, especially SLAs. As I pointed out elsewhere, the systems we are discussing were originally designed to cope with occasional outages, not multiple outages per day. One guy told me that he never gave a 5 year warranty, but that was generally the life his customers got out of SLAs before load shedding started. When we had this conversation, about 2.5 years ago, he said that he had changed his expectations to 2 years. I wonder what he thinks now? But the anecdotal evidence is there.

I think you gave your friend the right advice, and I can't see how you could have made things worse. If you are running 2 batteries with 1 inverter then try to find out if you need a balancing device to make sure that the batteries stay at the same SOC.

Thank you @Bobster.

I think he messed up the first two batteries within the first year… now 4 100ah lead acid only lasts him like 1.5hrs and he is only running led lights and modem. I wonder if he balanced these batteries it would help.. 

I’m going to make another topic regarding these batteries and balancing. I think it would be beneficial to have a balancing device in any case just to prolong lifespan. We also going to rearrange his plugs so that he runs bare minimum on these batteries. 

4 hours ago, Derek Ramos said:

So a family member has a small inverter that can charge at 20a and 40a… he has now gone through 6 lead acid batteries in the past 3 years.. because the funds are limited he decided to rather just buy new batteries instead of upgrading his system so I convinced him to spend a little more and get lithium. we have just bought these 

Price was far better than any other brands and I figured it should be okay as the lithium cells are new and it has a bms. What do you think? We had to move quick as they only had two in stock. 

Looks like avg price is R7500 for 1 , or am i wrong. 

Yes, but I've seen similar batteries from another brand at 12-15k each

1 hour ago, Madek said:

Looks like avg price is R7500 for 1 , or am i wrong. 

Not 100% sure I get dealer prices from a certain company.

On 2023/01/11 at 12:39 PM, Bobster. said:

So how about a rethink? What if you could get say a 3kw inverter (say a Kodak) and a 5kwh lithium battery, then get that wired in so that it supports lights and some plug circuits. Now she has lights and TV on all the time, as well as the important machine, maybe the fridge too. So a lot more protection and you can sleep a little more soundly at night, and you won't have to be shopping for gel batteries on an annual basis. 

We ve looked at all options. And yes lithium is the e way to go BUT for safety purposes we will never install such system in a house always in a garage setup. In this old age home theres no garage. We ve been researching legislation and cant find any SANS on where a battery should be installed. Had a look at SANS for building regulations 10400, but cant find a rule on this referring to batteries  So does this mean that people in flats old age homes who need power have to be the ones that suffer during load shedding. HELP HELP pls 

On 2023/01/11 at 12:39 PM, Bobster. said:

So how about a rethink? What if you could get say a 3kw inverter (say a Kodak) and a 5kwh lithium battery, then get that wired in so that it supports lights and some plug circuits. Now she has lights and TV on all the time, as well as the important machine, maybe the fridge too. So a lot more protection and you can sleep a little more soundly at night, and you won't have to be shopping for gel batteries on an annual basis. 

 

8 minutes ago, Madek said:

We ve looked at all options. And yes lithium is the e way to go BUT for safety purposes we will never install such system in a house always in a garage setup. In this old age home theres no garage. We ve been researching legislation and cant find any SANS on where a battery should be installed. Had a look at SANS for building regulations 10400, but cant find a rule on this referring to batteries  So does this mean that people in flats old age homes who need power have to be the ones that suffer during load shedding. HELP HELP pls 

 

Lol what? You won't install a lithium battery in a home because you *think* it's not safe?

Yeah, you're on your own buddy, you've been given good advice and you refuse to take it

Cheers

8 minutes ago, madness_za said:

Lol what? You won't install a lithium battery in a home because you *think* it's not safe?

Yeah, you're on your own buddy, you've been given good advice and you refuse to take it

Cheers

Sorry. Im missing it. Im looking for SANS regulations to say its ok i need proof not advice that building regulation will allow it. Many pv courses specifically state not to install in a house. Ensure fire wall protection. Im looking legislation. Will insurabce company pay oyt uf there is a fire. Im believe insurance conpanies are currently working on this due to many fly by nights 

3 hours ago, Madek said:

We ve looked at all options. And yes lithium is the e way to go BUT for safety purposes we will never install such system in a house always in a garage setup. In this old age home theres no garage. We ve been researching legislation and cant find any SANS on where a battery should be installed. Had a look at SANS for building regulations 10400, but cant find a rule on this referring to batteries  So does this mean that people in flats old age homes who need power have to be the ones that suffer during load shedding. HELP HELP pls 

Well my system is inside what used to be our linen cupboard. I've seen installs in at least two shops and one medical practice near to me. I don't know if there's a regulation that says you must put it there, or you can't put it there. 

It would be interesting to find out.

Where are you situated? Maiden Electronics, out near Kyalami, are offering a trolley product which is essentially a 3KW pure sine inverter on top of a cabinet with batteries in it. This is a load shedding solution, but a superior one. Their default is SLAs, but you can pay the extra and get lithiums, or gels or whatever.

https://www.maidenelectronics.co.za/sapphire-hybrid-3kw-puresine-hybrid-inverter-on-a-trolley-with-2-x-105ah-batteries

3 hours ago, Madek said:

Sorry. Im missing it. Im looking for SANS regulations to say its ok i need proof not advice that building regulation will allow it. Many pv courses specifically state not to install in a house. Ensure fire wall protection. Im looking legislation. Will insurabce company pay oyt uf there is a fire. Im believe insurance conpanies are currently working on this due to many fly by nights 

I think the concern is around the type of batteries. Look at older pictures of PV systems and note the huge banks of lead-acid batteries. You want that lot somewhere well vented. Some earlier types of lithium batteries had a fire risk. I understand that gel batteries have a fire retarding component. So there was concern (but regulation) at some time. The LiFe batteries that are common now are pretty safe.