The Sunsynk SUNBAT 5.32 kWh battery claims the following warranty conditions: 6000 Cycles @ 80% DOD / 25ºC / 0.5C, 60% EOL.
Does this mean that under ideal laboratory conditions, they measures 6000 cycles under these specific parameters, at a constant rate of discharge of 50% (2.66 kW)?
Does it mean that every time I discharge it faster than at 0.5C, the number of 'guaranteed' cycles drops further below 6000?

Please correct me if I am making any wrong conclusions.

I am aware it is all relative because actual battery discharge rate and depth varies every day, within the limits of the BMS. 
However I am trying to compare this battery to the HUBBLE AM-5, which has an even more vague warranty of 'unlimited' cycles for 10 years. 
Different manufacturers also state different End Of Life capacity percentages, which makes it even harder to compare a Sunsynk 5.32 with a Hubble-AM5 5.12 or with Volta Stage 1 (5.12 kWh) battery. 

From the discharge curves supplied in the VOLTA STAGE 1 guarantee, I conclude the following is true for all batteries, even within the limits set by the BMS: 
1.Higher discharge rates greatly reduces long term life (number of cycles).
2.Greater discharge depth reduces long term life, even when limited to 80% of DOD.  
3. Higher ambient temperatures means the battery's own working temperature rises more rapidly to a level that reduces the battery 'effectiveness'. This leads to the battery being 'laboured' more, leading to a shorter long term life. 

Neither Sunsynk nor Hubble AM-5 supplied discharge curves. 

Datasheet Volta Lithium Battery Series.pdf Hubble Lithium AM-5 Warranty.pdf InDesign-SUN-BATT-5.12-Datasheet.pdf

No matter what Hubble says, there is plenty of evidence they'll try their best to void any warranty claim.  So if you think you can put any trust into their warranty wording, you've got a lot of faith (or maybe you think you'll be the one guy they'll honor the warranty for).  Either way, I'd recommend you stick with a reputable company, like Sunsynk.

Thank you Gnome. I don't trust Hubble or Volta or Sunsynk warranties either because they include so many open-ended exclusions. For example, this is what Sunsynk says in their warranty document:  

7. EXCLUSIONS - The following instances shall render the warranty inapplicable:  iii. In cases of degradation of general cell life.

The cell life is the most important reason I would like a warranty, based on this claim in their data sheets and user manual:

6000 Cycles @ 80% DOD / 25ºC / 0.5C, 60% EOL  - yet this is excluded from their warranty. It makes the claimed "theoretical" life span useless to me. 

I don't know which manufacturer I can trust anymore. 

See   https://www.sunsynk.org/_files/ugd/52fa1b_99f9ed0e6307465ab055e5927573d54c.pdf

Sunsynk Warranty 01.05.22 (3)_AW Inverter and Battery SEE CONDITIONS.pdf

15 hours ago, Gnome said:

No matter what Hubble says, there is plenty of evidence they'll try their best to void any warranty claim.  So if you think you can put any trust into their warranty wording, you've got a lot of faith (or maybe you think you'll be the one guy they'll honor the warranty for).  Either way, I'd recommend you stick with a reputable company, like Sunsynk.

Please provide links? 

1 hour ago, BOBBEJAANKLIMDIEBERG said:

Thank you Gnome. I don't trust Hubble or Volta or Sunsynk warranties either because they include so many open-ended exclusions. For example, this is what Sunsynk says in their warranty document:  

7. EXCLUSIONS - The following instances shall render the warranty inapplicable:  iii. In cases of degradation of general cell life.

The cell life is the most important reason I would like a warranty, based on this claim in their data sheets and user manual:

6000 Cycles @ 80% DOD / 25ºC / 0.5C, 60% EOL  - yet this is excluded from their warranty. It makes the claimed "theoretical" life span useless to me. 

I don't know which manufacturer I can trust anymore. 

See   https://www.sunsynk.org/_files/ugd/52fa1b_99f9ed0e6307465ab055e5927573d54c.pdf

Sunsynk Warranty 01.05.22 (3)_AW Inverter and Battery SEE CONDITIONS.pdf 1.8 MB · 0 downloads

And if cell replacement is needed on the Sunsynk battery in years 5 to 10, you will pay the labour costs, they only cover cost of the cells. 

On 2023/04/07 at 2:14 PM, YellowTapemeasure said:

Please provide links? 

I mean you've posted there, surely you know they gave a bunch of people the run-around and ridiculous claims like if you use PBMS they'll deny your warranty and so on.  Your opinion is highly biased since you own many of their units.  I also have no doubt your units will fail sooner than the claimed 10 year warranty at which point you'll have issues with them.

All the data in that thread has pretty much convinced me they have a problem on all AM2 units due to choosing a bad chemistry.  It isn't a matter of am I affected but when will you be affected.  There is a reason why all Lithium companies, even for cars are switching to LiFePO₄

More importantly, many installers themselves no longer wanting to touch Hubble (and when they do definitely not AM2).  So if this was "industry standard" failure rates, installers would be having problems with other companies too.  Yet the posts are all about their dismal support and problems on their batteries.

I could go further and talk about sneaky behaviour like their overpriced cloud link that actually lost features instead of got more, suddenly became a requisite for warranty claims and so on.

Edited April 9, 20231 yr by Gnome

1 hour ago, Gnome said:

I mean you've posted there, surely you know they gave a bunch of people the run-around and ridiculous claims like if you use PBMS they'll deny your warranty and so on.  Your opinion is highly biased since you own many of their units.  I also have no doubt your units will fail sooner than the claimed 10 year warranty at which point you'll have issues with them.

All the data in that thread has pretty much convinced me they have a problem on all AM2 units due to choosing a bad chemistry.  It isn't a matter of am I affected but when will you be affected.  There is a reason why all Lithium companies, even for cars are switching to LiFePO₄

More importantly, many installers themselves no longer wanting to touch Hubble (and when they do definitely not AM2).  So if this was "industry standard" failure rates, installers would be having problems with other companies too.  Yet the posts are all about their dismal support and problems on their batteries.

I could go further and talk about sneaky behaviour like their overpriced cloud link that actually lost features instead of got more, suddenly became a requisite for warranty claims and so on.

I have four AM-2 and besides the initial firmware issues they are working well.

>ridiculous claims like if you use PBMS they'll deny your warranty

Seems unethical of Hubble to restrict access to vital health information of the AM-2 (eg individual Cell Voltage).

What is Hubble trying to hide?

They neutered RIOT to hide SoH which is not good.

Mushroom syndrome.

Also not happy that AM-2 counts at ~1.5 cycles per day. At this rate will be 3000 cycles in ~5 years instead of expected ~8 years.

3 hours ago, Gnome said:

I mean you've posted there, surely you know they gave a bunch of people the run-around and ridiculous claims like if you use PBMS they'll deny your warranty and so on.  Your opinion is highly biased since you own many of their units.  I also have no doubt your units will fail sooner than the claimed 10 year warranty at which point you'll have issues with them.

All the data in that thread has pretty much convinced me they have a problem on all AM2 units due to choosing a bad chemistry.  It isn't a matter of am I affected but when will you be affected.  There is a reason why all Lithium companies, even for cars are switching to LiFePO₄

More importantly, many installers themselves no longer wanting to touch Hubble (and when they do definitely not AM2).  So if this was "industry standard" failure rates, installers would be having problems with other companies too.  Yet the posts are all about their dismal support and problems on their batteries.

I could go further and talk about sneaky behaviour like their overpriced cloud link that actually lost features instead of got more, suddenly became a requisite for warranty claims and so on.

OK, so nothing concrete besides anecdotal he said / she said. Thank you.

22 hours ago, system32 said:

Mushroom syndrome

What does that mean? (legit I've not heard the term before)

21 hours ago, YellowTapemeasure said:

OK, so nothing concrete besides anecdotal he said / she said. Thank you.

A bunch of different customers all saying the same thing, what more evidence do you want?  You want a Zondo commission?

There is overwhelming evidence from multiple people with no reason to come and post it other than getting screwed.  Do you see the same kind of thread for other batteries?

And yeah, I work for a MAJOR online US store.  Let me tell you right now that a single customer reaching out, typically means you've usually had 100+ customers impacted.  I'll freely admit the number of people complaining here are probably not a factor of x100, but it is definitely not 1:1.  For every person posting here there will be 5 others who haven't posted.

Edited April 10, 20231 yr by Gnome

21 hours ago, YellowTapemeasure said:

OK, so nothing concrete besides anecdotal he said / she said. Thank you.

Is there a lot else on this forum when it comes to brands of equipment? We share our experiences, good & bad. 

20 hours ago, Gnome said:

Mushroom syndrome

What does that mean? (legit I've not heard the term before)

Neutering RIOT (remove useful information like SoH) and blocking access to information from PBMS tools reminds me of this syndrome.
See https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mushroom_syndrome

Basically it means "keep you in the dark and feed you sh1t".
 

On 2023/04/09 at 5:46 PM, Gnome said:

I mean you've posted there, surely you know they gave a bunch of people the run-around and ridiculous claims like if you use PBMS they'll deny your warranty and so on.

I did not post that, I am not Hubble nor a representative of them. You are being dishonest in suggesting that I am.

 

This is what you stated :

On 2023/04/06 at 10:22 PM, Gnome said:

No matter what Hubble says, there is plenty of evidence they'll try their best to void any warranty claim.

 

On 2023/04/10 at 6:23 PM, Gnome said:

There is overwhelming evidence

"Plenty of evidence" and "overwhelming evidence"?

I asked you to post the evidence, you cannot.

 

On 2023/04/10 at 6:48 PM, Bobster. said:

Is there a lot else on this forum when it comes to brands of equipment? We share our experiences, good & bad. 

I own 3 Hubble batteries, and right now they are doing great. 

 

Do you own a Hubble battery? Even one?  What material interest have you got? Please explain. 

8 hours ago, system32 said:

Neutering RIOT (remove useful information like SoH) and blocking access to information from PBMS tools reminds me of this syndrome.
See https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mushroom_syndrome

Basically it means "keep you in the dark and feed you sh1t".
 

I have SOH reporting from my Cloudlink, so I am not sure what you are referring to.

11 hours ago, YellowTapemeasure said:

I have SOH reporting from my Cloudlink, so I am not sure what you are referring to.

RIOT
My RIOT was only connected to the 4 x AM-2 battery bank and not the inverter.
When I got my RIOT in 2021, it showed both SoH and SoC.
Later updates removed the SoH from the display.
I sold my RIOT about 3 weeks back, so it's possible Hubble have restored SoH in the last 3 weeks.

AM-2
In terms of  my 4 x AM-2, I'm mostly happy with the service and experience with Hubble.

When I got the 4xAM-2 batteries in Nov 2021, I did have issues where SoH and usable capacity were decreasing.
I contacted Hubble support and via the RIOT they reset the batteries capacity from 110Ah to 100Ah.
Was not entirely happy with the decreased capacity...
Unfortunately resetting the BMS Capacity did not solve the problems with SoC/SoH.
Hubble then requested that I return the batteries for checking which I did.
Sending the batteries in did not resolve the problem either.
After a few weeks, under advice from Hubble, I switched to using Volts for SoC, as the BMS SoC was decreasing too quickly.
I used a Juntek shunt to monitor energy in/out of the battery bank and compare that to the SoC reported by the BMS.
see https://github.com/mysystem32/juntek_kg
A few months later I learnt via this powerforum of new firmware.
I requested the firmware from Hubble Support which resolved the problem with SoC/SoH and restored the reported capacity to 105Ah.
Since then the 4 x AM-2 have been working very well.

I'm sure Hubble have reasons for telling people not to use PBMS tools, but the T&C also block you from connecting Solar-Assistant to the console/rs485 ports.
Having SoH, SoC, Cell Voltages, Temperature, cycles, etc is useful for troubleshooting issues.
Instead of hiding this information, they should enhance RIOT to display all information.

Would I get AM-2 again? Yes. The product works. Support works.
I would probably go with AM-5 as they have different chemistry.

Hubble Support
My experience has been good with Hubble support and I can recommend them.
I very glad to have local support for the AM-2 and ultimately get my issues resolved.

Some of the imported products are difficult to get help with.

On 2023/04/11 at 11:37 PM, YellowTapemeasure said:

I did not post that, I am not Hubble nor a representative of them. You are being dishonest in suggesting that I am.

I said you have posted there, not that you said anything about PBMS.  Re-read the sentence 🙄

On 2023/04/11 at 11:37 PM, YellowTapemeasure said:

"Plenty of evidence" and "overwhelming evidence"?

I asked you to post the evidence, you cannot.

🤣

 

Edited July 11, 20231 yr by Gnome

On 2023/04/10 at 6:23 PM, Gnome said:

For every person posting here there will be 5 others who haven't posted.

True, as a general rule. 👊