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Hubble AM-5 or Shoto 512kwh


mountainboy

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Hey guys

 

I've received my Deye 5kw inverter and also ordered the hubble AM-5 battery due to its unlimited cycles but having read issues regarding warranty claim issues from Hubble, I have certain reservations

 

The supplier has the Shoto battery availible immediately which he offered after hearing my concerns. Its also much cheaper

 

My monthly electricity bill is quite low as we are light users and a 5kw system will easily meet our needs, so hopefully the battery will not have to work all that hard

 

Any guidance on these battery choices availible?

 

 

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1 hour ago, mountainboy said:

Hey guys

 

I've received my Deye 5kw inverter and also ordered the hubble AM-5 battery due to its unlimited cycles but having read issues regarding warranty claim issues from Hubble, I have certain reservations

 

The supplier has the Shoto battery availible immediately which he offered after hearing my concerns. Its also much cheaper

 

My monthly electricity bill is quite low as we are light users and a 5kw system will easily meet our needs, so hopefully the battery will not have to work all that hard

 

Any guidance on these battery choices availible?

 

 

Search around for info explaining a 0.5C vs 1C battery. Probably lots of threads on this.

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1 hour ago, mountainboy said:

Hey guys

 

I've received my Deye 5kw inverter and also ordered the hubble AM-5 battery due to its unlimited cycles but having read issues regarding warranty claim issues from Hubble, I have certain reservations

 

The supplier has the Shoto battery availible immediately which he offered after hearing my concerns. Its also much cheaper

 

My monthly electricity bill is quite low as we are light users and a 5kw system will easily meet our needs, so hopefully the battery will not have to work all that hard

 

Any guidance on these battery choices availible?

 

 



The issue of 1C has been mentioned. The C number is a measure of how heavily you can load the battery. Looking at 5kWh batteries, a 1C battery can be discharged at 5kW. Obviously it's only going to last for an hour, but you're not likely to want a constant 5kW.

Some 5kWh batteries will only let you draw 2.5kW at any given time (IE they are 0.5C). That's OK as long as you don't need to exceed that 2.5kW. If you do, the battery will shut down to protect itself. 

So what the 1C battery does is allow you to handle greater peak loads. Think of it as more headroom.

So try to figure out what your peak demand would be, and then look at what each battery will allow. Look at charging rates too. The higher the charging current, the faster you can charge the battery.

10kWh of battery will give you considerably more protection in the case of a long outage. Yes... I know... not my money.

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3 hours ago, mountainboy said:

Hey guys

 

I've received my Deye 5kw inverter and also ordered the hubble AM-5 battery due to its unlimited cycles but having read issues regarding warranty claim issues from Hubble, I have certain reservations

 

The supplier has the Shoto battery availible immediately which he offered after hearing my concerns. Its also much cheaper

 

My monthly electricity bill is quite low as we are light users and a 5kw system will easily meet our needs, so hopefully the battery will not have to work all that hard

 

Any guidance on these battery choices availible?

 

 

The"unlimited" part of the Hubble warranty is just of the cells. The weakest link in most batteries is the BMS which only has a 2 year warranty in the case of the AM5

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19 hours ago, FixAMess said:

For the technocrats out there, here is a research paper on the C, C/2 debate..

In short C discharge, charge rates reduces lifespan of the battery significantly.

If you want a long battery life C/2 is the way to go.

I think of the guy in the video linked in another thread who was concerned about heating of leads if charging with 1C and the losses that it creates. With no word did he give a thought to the heating of the cells in the battery pack. That is likely to be significantly higher than reasonably sized leads. And it's that heating that deteriorates the cells and reduces battery lifespan. It's not for nothing that BMSs do monitor the battery temperature. So, if concerned about lifespan, keep C well below 0.5.

5kWh battery for a 5kW inverter is much undersized. There should be at least 10kWh.

By the way, how should I understand "Hubble AM-5 or Shoto 512kwh" in the title of the Thread?

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4 minutes ago, Faz said:

Hi all. Advice needed. Which battery is better between Revov and Shoto 5.12 kva? Growatt inverter. Thanks 

Revov have a range of products, some second life and some not. I googled "Shoto 5.12" and quickly found two very different batteries. So it might help to specify the specific models you are considering.

Things that I would look at if I were buying a battery now
1) What rate can you charge it at? You can charge twice as quickly at 100A as you can at 50A (I know it sounds obvious, but I didn't really pay attention to this at first)
2) What rate can you discharge at? If you can discharge at a higher rate, you can handle higher peak loads. You probably don't want to discharge at the maximum rate continuously, but that extra head room can come in handy
3) Can the inverter I've chose and the BMS talk to each other via a comms cable? This means that the inverter gets accurate SOC information, and also that the BMS can take care of settings on the inverter. 
4) The specific type of lithium chemistry used. There are concerns about fire risks with the NMC type cells.
5) Price
6) Testimony/reviews RE support and the product (sure it's mostly anecdotal, but it's also usually from people who have no interest other than getting good batteries.
7) If you're using an installer and will expect them to support the system, then listen to their recommendations.

Also 10kWh of battery gives you a lot more protection, but I understand that costs money that isn't mine.

As regards (3). I used to have Revovs (none of their current range). The reality is that Revovs communicate well with Sunsynk and Victron inverters, not so well with anything else. The installer manually set everything as per Revov's specs, but the inverter and the BMS never got on that well and the system was never 100% stable and reliable.

Then I changed to Freedom Won. This was a horse of a very different feather. The technician who installed the new battery set the inverter to "default Lithium" mode, plugged in the comms cable, and  the BMS took control of the inverter and set everything the way that it wanted. And I cannot override those settings. Now the inverter and BMS co-exist very happily (and the system is stable as long as I don't fool around with it).

Different folks will weigh these things differently. EG I am actually less concerned about the charge & discharge rate. The FW can be charged or discharged at 200A, but my inverter won't go past 90A and is thus the bottle neck.

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Thank you for your in depth response. It makes sense but I am more confused. I will address the points with the company/installer.

 
Hasn’t  provided details other than:

Growatt 5KVA hybrid inverter, Revov 5.12kva lithium battery.

 

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6 hours ago, Bobster. said:

Then I changed to Freedom Won. This was a horse of a very different feather. The technician who installed the new battery set the inverter to "default Lithium" mode, plugged in the comms cable, and  the BMS took control of the inverter and set everything the way that it wanted. And I cannot override those settings. Now the inverter and BMS co-exist very happily (and the system is stable as long as I don't fool around with it).

Think you just sold me on the Freedom Won, I have a Hubble and enabled full communication but have reverted due to BMS lowered SOC , so understand how communication can be a plus point

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On 2023/04/13 at 3:05 AM, FixAMess said:

For the technocrats out there, here is a research paper on the C, C/2 debate..

In short C discharge, charge rates reduces lifespan of the battery significantly.

If you want a long battery life C/2 is the way to go.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2590116819300116

Or get more than one battery

Or get 1C batteries and use them at below C/2.
In my case I have 4 x AM-2 5kW, 48V, 100Ah 1C batteries and an 8kW inverter.
I have 4 batteries because I wanted 20kWh of storage.
The inverter can invert 8kW, over 4 batteries is 2kW per battery, well below the 1C of 5kW.

Edited by system32
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6 hours ago, Bobster. said:

Revov have a range of products, some second life and some not. I googled "Shoto 5.12" and quickly found two very different batteries. So it might help to specify the specific models you are considering.

Things that I would look at if I were buying a battery now
1) What rate can you charge it at? You can charge twice as quickly at 100A as you can at 50A (I know it sounds obvious, but I didn't really pay attention to this at first)
2) What rate can you discharge at? If you can discharge at a higher rate, you can handle higher peak loads. You probably don't want to discharge at the maximum rate continuously, but that extra head room can come in handy
3) Can the inverter I've chose and the BMS talk to each other via a comms cable? This means that the inverter gets accurate SOC information, and also that the BMS can take care of settings on the inverter. 
4) The specific type of lithium chemistry used. There are concerns about fire risks with the NMC type cells.
5) Price
6) Testimony/reviews RE support and the product (sure it's mostly anecdotal, but it's also usually from people who have no interest other than getting good batteries.
7) If you're using an installer and will expect them to support the system, then listen to their recommendations.

Also 10kWh of battery gives you a lot more protection, but I understand that costs money that isn't mine.

As regards (3). I used to have Revovs (none of their current range). The reality is that Revovs communicate well with Sunsynk and Victron inverters, not so well with anything else. The installer manually set everything as per Revov's specs, but the inverter and the BMS never got on that well and the system was never 100% stable and reliable.

Then I changed to Freedom Won. This was a horse of a very different feather. The technician who installed the new battery set the inverter to "default Lithium" mode, plugged in the comms cable, and  the BMS took control of the inverter and set everything the way that it wanted. And I cannot override those settings. Now the inverter and BMS co-exist very happily (and the system is stable as long as I don't fool around with it).

Different folks will weigh these things differently. EG I am actually less concerned about the charge & discharge rate. The FW can be charged or discharged at 200A, but my inverter won't go past 90A and is thus the bottle neck.

Agree.
I think (4) chemistry is important as it impacts the cycles of the battery.
Also
8 ) warranty
9 ) local support
10) cycles

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