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I feel this is unconstitutional. What's your thoughts?


ibiza

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4 minutes ago, gabriel said:

ag pleeeze man B)

Want to take over? :-)

The eastern mind negotiates different than their western counterparts.

My bets are on that there is no documentation, she will say it is an off grid inverter. She would have sent the docs immediately.

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49 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

Want to take over? :-)

like my fellow keipies woud say "nay man"

52 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

The eastern mind negotiates different than their western counterparts.

it is impossible for me to fathom that mind, although the reaction on the prospect of making money, it is on level with the western mind. the negotiating process will be more based on sun tzu and chess than on louis l'amour and pinball machines though :D

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18 minutes ago, Mark said:

@plonkster Hope this i still in the box... since it is being withdrawn.  Price? ;)

Bwahaha! No, it is discontinued and replaced by a newer model, but there is still stock of the old one and it remains supported, certified and legal. Beside, the new MP-II has the same inverter on the inside (it was initially called the MultiGrid-II). It's just different packaging.

I rather like the aluminium case though. I'm glad I got this one :-)

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It is confirmed, Voltronic has no papers for the Axpert range, as it is sold as an off-grid system.

Hello (TTT),
 
Thank you for your kindly reply and detail explanation.
 
After my confirmation to my upper manager, We understand that there will have the regulations in your country when the products need to feed-back to grid.
We have sell a lot of Off-Grid Solar Inverter (Axpert) to your country, and the certification will be CE certificate.
 
As your attached file, we understand that NRS certificate is for the products that will feed-back to grid, like : Hybrid Solar Inverter.
 
Hoping that we have answer your question, if there still anything remain unclear, please tell me and we can have further discussion.
We are hoping that we could receive your confirm order in the near future.
 
With our best regards,
 
 
 
One question I have left: Did the importers of Axpert devices know this?
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33 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

CE certificate

Indeed. I actually don't think they are lying, their product very well may comply with CE requirements. One just has to understand that this is a declaration by the manufacturer, not by a standards authority or a testing house. As I understand it, it merely says the device is safe and won't electrocute you during normal use.

I also think that these things have been taken apart and analyzed enough that we can say on a technical level that they probably should be safe. But the reality, unfortunately, is that we have a grid tie requirement that is rather strict. It at least doesn't have ramp requirements like VDE AR N 4105 and AS4777 (as far as I know anyway), but it is stricter than the UK and Belgium codes (again, as far as I know, and my opinion only).

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1 hour ago, plonkster said:

I actually don't think they are lying, ...

No-one said they are lying. :-)

They clearly stated off-grid inverter with CE certification which is perfect for its intended purpose.

Fact that we here in SA make a plan given half a chance, basta with anyone telling us differently, and don't try and regulate us ... now that is a totally different ballgame. :D

 

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Thinking about the effort to get answers from Voltronic, want to share this story.

So I bought two Fanvil X5S VoIP phones (Chinese make) the other day. Last night I tried to do something but something was not right. Having just updated to the new firmware release, I thought maybe that it is a persisting problem. So I emailed their support.

This morning early I got the reply telling me what to look for and if the problem persists, please send them xyz. 2 seconds later and the problem was sorted.

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@The Terrible Triplett
Well been trying to stop from replying to this thread for the last couple of weeks (You can blame the idiot taxi for finally assisting in pushing me over the edge in keeping back here)


Sorry but your way of thinking is what makes things like e-toll possible in this country. (I'll gladly send you my bills since you are so willing to support this, they are in the region of 40-45k last time I looked)
You have been trying to scare of people for the last couple of weeks from using an Axpert (we all know how you feel about them)
If it's outright stupid, like with e-toll.
I will not support it or fight it till it can't happen anymore.

The same situation is happening with the firearms at this moment where people were once again  told to hand in firearms with expired licenses. Now we have court cases etc that's been going on for a few years now even after they made it law. As it stand now you might be able to renew that license after all. Unless you already handed it in because of fear...

Back to solar.
Good thing no list or anything like that exists in the other provinces. (That I have seen or heard of)
Even if they do decide on brining "The list" to the others, we should expect the same number of years for it to become law then too, right? (Can't remember how many years you said)

Will fight this as much as I'm fighting the e-toll and firearms "fear" tactics being used against us already.

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Forget the COCT list - Axpert does not comply with NRS 097.2.1 (Utility interface requirements) or NRS 097.2.2 (Embedded generator requirements). Those are national standards. If your municipality or Eskom waltz over and say take your Axpert down you do not have a leg to stand on. It is not something new the Axpert has never complied with the regulations.  TTT does not like Axperts we know that yet he has got off his butt and confirmed that the Axpert has no NRS certification. They themselves have confirmed that the Axpert is limited to CE certification. I would not like to be one of the importers. I think there may be some legal wrangling to come. I am fortunate in that I am off grid but I was certainly not made aware that it would be illegal to connect it to the grid. 

Despite his smirk we owe TTT a vote of thanks.

 

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27 minutes ago, viper_za said:

Will fight this as much as I'm fighting the e-toll and firearms "fear" tactics being used against us already.
You have been trying to scare of people for the last couple of weeks from using an Axpert (we all know how you feel about them)

No, I don't have to scare no-one, you should do that yourself now that you know more.
I just got riled after off-grid and grid-tied was confused by "experts", who wanted R10k from me for off-grid installation, that turned out to be free!
:-) Now more than ever will I not touch a Axpert or Voltronic product for that matter.  :-) 
Axperts do not even have paperwork, that I could find, complying to international regulations for UPS'es like i.e. APC UPS'es have. :D

And I have repeatedly said someone must find a solution, as I have no skin in this game. Are you taking over?

I do support regulations when anyone without a electrical qualification can connect anything they want to the grid that we all share, after they have invalidated their existing CoC.
I support legal grid connections if done by a person who has the authority to make that connection.

Same as no speed limits on roads, not allowed to drive under the influence, guns in schools, you cannot allow just anyone to do as they please with local and national resources.

Firearms: I say everyone should be able to get one like you can get a license to a vehicle. Sell bullets (with license in hand when you buy) at PnP, Checkers etc. Guns have never killed anyone. Licensing has never stopped crimes or deaths that where committed with illegal firearms.

Toll road fees in Jhb: Have never paid one cent towards that. And when they tried that shiite in Cpt, I was very vocal.

 

29 minutes ago, viper_za said:

Good thing no list or anything like that exists in the other provinces. (That I have seen or heard of)
Even if they do decide on brining "The list" to the others, we should expect the same number of years for it to become law then too, right? (Can't remember how many years you said)

CoCT was the pilot site, that is why it took so long. They talked to everyone in this time.
CoCT clearly states it is only for areas they are supplying, if you are on Eskom, talk to Eskom. 
Connecting anything to the grid is illegal, unless NERSA / Eskom has approved the connection.
Connecting anything to your DB board, should be accompanied by a CoC, done by a suitable authorised electrician. 

 

1 minute ago, Chris Hobson said:

Despite his smirk we owe TTT a vote of thanks.

Thank you Chris, greatly appreciated. I was worried that this can go sideways fast, I hope I steered clear. Ja, I did have a small smirk, but I did not gloat. :-) 

Thanks to all who sat on their hands whilst we learned more about this.

Find the solution guys, off-grid is the answer, that registration is free, bar the CoC which you need in any event. Insurers will now be more aware of this "escape" route. Check your policy. 

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2 hours ago, plonkster said:

but it is stricter than the UK and Belgium codes

well and so is our constitution, if not stricter at least more 'functional' sounding, but for all its 'beauty' and lofty ideals it is near useless when it comes to application; lets hope the people behind our ssegs will go for practical functionality first. if one has to really apply all standards applicable to road transport and nbr building compliance i doubt if 95% vehicles or homes would make it... hence the ' not on coct compliant list :( yet :-)' on my signature

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26 minutes ago, Chris Hobson said:

Forget the COCT list - Axpert does not comply with NRS 097.2.1 (Utility interface requirements) or NRS 097.2.2 (Embedded generator requirements).

The list is a guideline. It is supposed to help you select a good inverter. As I said earlier, that thing is terribly dated, almost everything on it is about to expire. The real test, as Chris so eloquently put it, is whether it complies with the national requirements. You can always argue with your municipality about a stupid list, armed with the national code and the certification documentation, and you will likely succeed in the end. But attempting to take on the national requirements, especially where some of those are based in SANS regulations that are now two decades old... that is farting against thunder.

For this to be similar to the eToll situation, you'd have to show that NRS097 and the prior SANS codes were designed specifically with this in mind. It doesn't look like it to me. To me it looks like some engineer did his job a little bit too well and we ended up with overkill. I suppose you could also argue that the authorities are purposefully refusing to look the other way (just a bit), but good luck with that :-)

It seems like the rest of the country still has some time, and given the dysfunctional nature of many municipalities, chances are your inverter might outlive this tragedy.

As for TTT... he even gets on my nerves too... but he went the extra mile on this. For people in Cape Town, that is now our reality.

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32 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

off-grid is the answer

One thing we discussed earlier is the use of a transfer switch. The Filax is limited in terms of power, but I note there is also a 5kva and a 10kva unit. Looks like they are not cheap, probably more than halfway towards a new Axpert, but with one of those on the output (and no grid connected to the input) you should technically be okay.

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1 minute ago, plonkster said:

The Filax is limited in terms of power, but I note there is also a 5kva and a 10kva unit ... but with one of those on the output (and no grid connected to the input) you should technically be okay.

There you go!!!  10 – 20ms - lekker man!

Who is going to run with this to see if the combination can be passed as an off-grid system?

I can try ... but if not, do not shoot the messenger, even if I get on your nerves. :P

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3 minutes ago, plonkster said:

It doesn't look like it to me. To me it looks like some engineer did his job a little bit too well and we ended up with overkill. I suppose you could also argue that the authorities are purposefully refusing to look the other way (just a bit), but good luck with that :-)

This is what is left and to come as Chris said

41 minutes ago, Chris Hobson said:

I think there may be some legal wrangling to come

This I suspect is going to follow the same route as the firearms that's already been declared as breaking the law with your firearms that's got expired licenses.
Yet this decision to hand in has been placed on hold because of court cases last month.

11 minutes ago, plonkster said:

It seems like the rest of the country still has some time, and given the dysfunctional nature of many municipalities, chances are your inverter might outlive this tragedy.

I'll personally wait for this to happen because as @plonkster mentioned with the state of municipalities it might take years.

51 minutes ago, Chris Hobson said:

say take your Axpert down you do not have a leg to stand on

Gun owners got that leg to stand on years later ;)
Worst case with this is just make half your house off grid until they are sure about what they really wanted.

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Something else to maybe start worrying about is what my company is now being asked to look into.
We work with couple of electricity suppliers data and the request we got last week is to build a system to see how many units of the prepaid meter get's carried over to the next month and with it for how many months it carries over in total before getting used.
This to me looks like they trying to close another loophole of buying the cheapest units even if you don't use them to carry over.
@plonkster I know you are also one taking advantage of this and so am I, on solar it just makes sense to have the cheap power when needed.
 

Let me head home, enjoy the weekend guys

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1 hour ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

I can try ...

Ok, so I emailed The Engineer. He called back.

Conversation started off that no, Axperts are UPS'es, no reason to sign off. Fill in the papers as off grid, see where that goes, it is free.

Then in chatting, I mentioned the safety is all built in, no external disconnect device, and no papers to prove anything.

That is when the penny dropped for him.

He was recently in meetings held by the electrical dept engineers and other solar companies. They do not want only a software disconnect, they are not budging, as that can fail. Therein the Ziehl for Multiplusses even though they meet other international standards.

So with the Filax he recons you are off grid, most definitely. But, they may want you to prove that, as you can connect back to the grid at anytime.

So he is prepared to chat to anyone and also sign off, if he deems that it is worth the money you must pay (he does not want to charge for something that he does not deem chargeable - my kinda guy) that you have a Filax, all is connected to be off-grid.

Or, even your electrician can certify that your system is off-grid, with a Filax or similar scenario.

One point he thought of:
So you have a Filax, Eskom goes off, Filax switches over to Axpert. No problem.
But ... always a but ... something to consider. Eskom is on, electrician switches DB off to do some work, he gets shocked for Axpert is sending current to that circuit.

Make sure the Axpert does not continue to feed the house grid, or portion, under any circumstance, if DB board is switched off being his one and only concern. 

PM met for his details. Note: I have no vested interest whatsoever. Beer, Pizza, EFT's and thank you's are welcomed though.

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29 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

Eskom is on, electrician switches DB off to do some work, he gets shocked for Axpert is sending current to that circuit.

The portion in NRS-097-2-1 related to solar-powered UPSes will still apply if you use a different transfer switch. That same regulations require that you have warning signs and warning devices (aka lights) installed. So this problem above is covered.

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6 hours ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

One question I have left: Did the importers of Axpert devices know this?

importers, installers, those responsible for coc.... who cares... money was to be made, and plenty of it... not so?

and now even more money is to be made... not so?

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1 hour ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

that you have a Filax, all is connected to be off-grid.

ok help this friday late afternoon brain understand.

  1. the axpert with the filax will be deemed off-grid?
  2. if off-grid than a coc from sparky ok or do i still have to call in engineer?

:huh:

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1 minute ago, gabriel said:

the axpert with the filax will be deemed off-grid?

No. But it will have a suitably interlocking transfer switch with paperwork, which will make it NRS097-2-1 compliant (see section 4.4.3 and 4.4.1.2), here is the 2010 version. I don't think the 2017 one will differ. It costs money to get these documents though.

5 minutes ago, gabriel said:

if off-grid than a coc from sparky ok or do i still have to call in engineer?

You'll still need the engineer.

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35 minutes ago, gabriel said:

importers, installers, those responsible for coc.... who cares... money was to be made, and plenty of it... not so?

That's too simplistic a way to look at it, I think. These things took off around the load-shedding time, late 2013 if I recall. Solar power was all the rage. Lots of people threatened that they will sommer go completely off grid (few of them realised what it really costs). Lots of people who would never have gone into solar otherwise suddenly found themselves with a saviour: The Axpert inverter. Make no mistake, it probably saved people thousands in lost business and productivity. The most imminent threat, at the time, was having no power at all.

I went into this a bit faster. My daughter was in utero, some big expenses were coming, and losing even 5 hours a week of productivity would have been a complete disaster. There was no Axpert at the time, and besides: mjlorton gave the Multi such a good review that I knew I wanted one. Did I think about grid codes at the time? No, I did not. No planning went into that. I basically lucked out.

Edit: This video.

Edited by plonkster
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