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Is your system legal? Capetonians have till 28 Feb 2019 to register their systems


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Just had a brain f..t.

Emailed "The Engineer" for his opinion on what must be in for him to sign off.

You can be safe with X or you can go XYZ. Like with everything in life, there is a balance.

 

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31 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

why does it cost R5-6k to rewire a DB board

When I did mine, I booked the sparkie for the whole day (he was done by 3PM). He had his helpers with  him. He had to buy some hardware that was needed (cabling, surface mount DB). I think 6k for all that is not bad. After he paid his helpers and the hardware, he probably made about 3k for the whole day. Which is senior software developer sort of money. I can live with that.

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16 minutes ago, plonkster said:

I can live with that.

We had this debate before. :-)

With parts and new wires being pulled, I can begin to consider a thought to wonder maybe, maybe ...

In my case, bar one new breaker, all parts are re-used. Literally just move some breakers around as in Eskom on lower row, MG (plugs lights) upper row ... no new wires being pulled.

The skill level for that is not on a senior developer level. One guy only.
Sparky to sign off his worker's work, one hour, R450 no problem at all!
Worker here for a few hours: R1500 no problem.
+ Parts

So I say: No. 

Going to find that electrician.

Edited by Guest
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1 minute ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

The skill level for that is not on a senior developer level. One guy only.

Yes, but if I did it myself, that is what it would have cost... cause I am on that level :-) So that was the benchmark so to speak.

Truth be told, that was a bit of a sledgehammer approach, booking the man for the whole day along with his team, with the aim of getting it done (because wifes are difficult creatures during power outages).

Remember we installed the Ziehl and the energy meter and an extra contactor and lots of stuff he himself had never done. So I consider 6k to be about the upper limit of the price range. On the lower end, I would not trust anyone who's willing to do it for under 2k, especially if hardware has to be thrown in.

One can save yourself into some great expenses sometimes.

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1 minute ago, plonkster said:

On the lower end, I would not trust anyone who's willing to do it for under 2k, especially if hardware has to be thrown in.

I said "+Parts" ... :D
2 people at R1950 for a <7 hours work ... that is good money.

And I don not buy "what my time is worth if I do it". Stick to your trade.

Who makes the biggest profit with no risk at all, on a bottle of wine? The waiter ... sometimes makes more per bottle than the wine producer.
Farmers, look at what they sell at, look at what we pay ... no no no, don't give me the supply chain argument. :D

We are conditioned to accept prices, as you always say, we then justify what we paid.

There are cheap crap prices, there are "market related prices all pay and justify" ... then there are the hardworking proud to do the job prices - like "The Engineer" as case point.

I find these people, as they are scarce.

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22 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

And I don not buy "what my time is worth if I do it". Stick to your trade.

It's an important metric for the DIYer. It is not the sole measure of what something should cost, of course not, but it is a measure of whether it is worth it to me.

Do I service my own car, or do I pay someone else to do it? Normally I do it on weekends, and I actually like doing it (plus there are no laws against it), so yes, I do. Because the garage charges around 2.5k to do it and I happen to know that about half that is oil and filters... which means if I can do it myself in 2 hours I also save money. No brainer. Same does not apply to electrical work unfortunately.

I'll let you know what today cost me. I didn't even ask for a quote... it's kinda urgent. Plus... the sparkie is already late. Should have been here an hour ago :-)

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5 minutes ago, plonkster said:

It would drive me nuts :-)

It does, doesn't it!!!

Photo is slightly misleading ... but it is NOT tidy with the old and newer breakers, space covers and spaces here and there ... 

Just cannot get past the point of replacing that which works, with new, just to make it look better. 

How I justify me not doing anything ... to sit on my hands ... is to tell myself it is not the "Green" way. 

So I sit on my hands.

From R6k down to maybe R1k ... and the Carlo will be installed, but not connected! ;)

Unless this sparky can connect the MG too.

Otherwise I will get the other guy out to do that, 30min, charged at one hours labour he said.  I accept that.

So seems to me the MG with CoC is going to be R2k ... lets see.

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@The Terrible Triplett the Solis looks interesting and inexpensive but for the life of me I cannot figure our how I would use one with my Axperts in a compliant configuration. Would appreciate to learn more of the configuration you had in mind. How would that compare to a transfer switch, such as you had for several years, and a 48V charger, if one can find one, all connected to my Axperts. The charger may not even be necessary as I could just use grid power when solar is not available. If the transfer switch is controlled by the BMV700, set for SOC switching, it seems that may be a solution that could work. Now and then, on a sunny day, I could manually switch to grid and let the MPPT controllers of the Axperts charge the batteries at maximum voltage for some hours for equalisation. 

Anyone else with a view please comment.

 

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1 minute ago, ebrsa said:

but for the life of me I cannot figure our how I would use one with my Axperts in a compliant configuration

It relies on the fact that if you have no PV-panels connected to the Axpert, then NRS097-2-1 is not applicable to it. Whether it is SANS 10142-1 compliant remains a different question, but nobody cares about that, neither now or in the past :-)

First think about this without the Axpert in the pciture. The Solis is a grid-tied inverter, or a PV-inverter (I will use that term). So during the day your solar power is injected into the grid and you use it directly. At night you use the grid. No batteries involved.

Now bring the Axpert in: The ideal is to charge (from the AC, which is supplied by the Solis) during the day, and discharge at night and then switch back to the grid at a predetermined SoC.

Reasons why it won't work as seamlessly:

1. Preferably you want comms between the PV-inverter and the battery inverter, so that the battery-inverter only charges with whatever power is available from the PV-inverter. You don't want to use grid power to charge, especially on days with less sun.

2. On days with variable conditions, you cannot use the batteries to cover gaps in solar production, like you can with the present setup.

3. If there is a power failure, the PV panels are offline. You run solely from battery. So a setup like this would be useless if you have an incident like the cable theft in Pretoria east that left people without power for almost a week.

In other words, your self-consumption will be worse with such a setup. But if you are at home during the day and use most of your power then, and your grid connection is stable, it might be cost effective.

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Thanks a great deal @plonkster, your explanation clarified things for me but it all looks a bit complex. What are your views on using a transfer switch, controlled by a BMV700 to power off-grid circuits in the house with the existing Axperts with the solar panels presently connected and with or without a separate 48V charger if a decent one that will charge a 48V bank T105 batteries exists. So the grid input to the Axperts will be disconnected.

Edited by ebrsa
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1 hour ago, ebrsa said:

Thanks a great deal @plonkster, your explanation clarified things for me but it all looks a bit complex. What are your views on using a transfer switch, controlled by a BMV700 to power off-grid circuits in the house with the existing Axperts with the solar panels presently connected and with or without a separate 48V charger if a decent one that will charge a 48V bank T105 batteries exists. So the grid input to the Axperts will be disconnected.

My understanding is that is that your system as described above would be classified as off-grid, meaning that in order to be fully compliant you have to;

  • Register only (existing tariff remains),
  • No engineer sign-off required,
  • Get a COC for the PV system (independent source of power exceeding 50V),
  • Normal SANS regs apply to balance of installation.

I would suggest using your normal Bulk/Float voltages for charging via the Axpert on daily basis, install HA-02's for daily balancing (one set of terminals per battery). Once a month on a good sunny day you manually switch C/O to grid, set float=bulk (57.4V or whatever you use), and blast a good charge into your bank at high voltage for the full day - set back to normal at sunset.

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2 hours ago, ebrsa said:

Would appreciate to learn more of the configuration you had in mind.

To make it dead simple:
- Solis is a compliant grid tied inverter with the panels connected to it - Tick.
- Your Axperts are now just a big UPS - Tick.

Re. ICC / BMV / batteries and all that:
Stays exactly as is in place to still do the switching based on BMV's SOC - Tick

In my mind you cannot do it cheaper, AND you get a better ROI from you panels, for each watt is passed into the house.

AND the Solis startup volts are low to boot.

Off-grid can become very annoying, and costly, if you want to charge the batteries with Eskom.

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@ebrsa I hate doing this, giving prices out when there is a Store, but these prices shown below are super cool. Sometimes they are same or even cheaper than new dealer prices at SegenSolar.

You need:
1) The Solis inverter - lets say you want dual MPPT, max 3.6kw inverter - Click here
2) Current Transformer - Click here
3) you want the data - Click here

So for a whopping R 10 502.20 incl VAT + delivery you have all the parts you need to be legally grid tied, and I have "The Engineers" details for you.

For an additional R 2 081.80 incl VAT you can have a 4.6kw Dual MPPT - so now you are on R 12 584.00 incl VAT for all the parts for a 4.6kw system.

And you can extend the warranty from 5 years to 10 or 20 ... 

Now how can a Infini / Goodwe / Victron make any sense at these prices?

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4 hours ago, ebrsa said:

If the transfer switch is controlled by the BMV700, set for SOC switching, it seems that may be a solution that could work.

Been thinking about this, and I can say this as I am now criticizing my own system.

Three issue that bugged me - be aware of this!:
1) The break ... twice a day is fine, 5-10 times a day due to clouds with the SOC jumping between the min / max, gets really annoying really fast.
2) System must first get to the min SOC before switching over. You lose a lot of watts that way, more if you don't reach the SOC that day, to switch back.
3) Final straw ... The regulations ... 

 

So I started looking at grid tied because from the 1st watt in the morning till the last watt in the evening, it all goes into the house.

Solis was right there on top, minutes away from placing the order, when the wife popped my bubble. She is damn good at that, asking questions I never think of.

Doing the sums for my setup, for a couple of thousand more than the Solis, after having secured the price I was prepared to pay, having all the parts in place already for the ESS, I chose Multigrid AND now I have battery backup also.

After selling the Phoenix and my Interlock and a BMV600, offsetting that income against the MG's purchase price, the MG is now cheaper by a few thousand, than the Solis.

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@pilotfish thank you for your comments. I already have HA-02's connected to all 16 batteries ( 2 parallel banks of 8 x 6V T105 batteries) and they work really well. Of course I suppose I will have to disconnect them all to test batteries if I suspect that one may be dodgy.

Here is what our municipality specifies for stand-alone systems.

6. Stand alone generators do not require approval in terms of the SSEG application process.

It would appear that I have nothing to register as long as I am not grid connected on either the input or the output of both of the Axperts. That causes a problem if I connect the input to the grid to charge batteries and even if the output is connected to a part of the house that is not grid connected as the Axperts would still have a grid connection. I believe I will have to discuss this with the electricity department to comprehend the requirements. As I understand some previous posts, the Axpert charger has the ability to feed back to the grid in the event of a power outage. I look forward to the change over switch you are building and hope it will be a great success. That will at least enable me to switch the output of the Axperts to the grid using the BMV700 based on battery SOC

@The Terrible Triplett thanks a lot again for your valuable advice. I had looked at the prices for the Solis gear from The Powershop after your previous post suggesting Solis and did buy my first 3Kw Axpert from them some 2 years ago. Even taking @plonkster's simplified explanation in consideration, I still cannot figure out how the outputs of a Solis and an Axpert is to be connected to the load. There is also the problem that even if I only connect the Axpert input to the grid it would still be a connection to the grid and therefore not stand-alone, at least judging from the Cape Town pamphlet illustration I posted earlier.

If the Axperts are to be used as a standard UPS, how is it to be connected, both input and output. Or is it your view that as long as solar panels are not connected to the Axperts, they are not classified as grid-tied. I will lose a lot as our municipality only pays about 50%of what they charge for electricity.

Maybe my best bet is just to go and check with the Director of Electrical Engineering which is as high as one can go. However before I do, I must have a plan B in place I as am sure you will agree.

 

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52 minutes ago, ebrsa said:

still cannot figure out how the outputs of a Solis and an Axpert is to be connected to the load.

You are overthinking it OR I am over simplifying it. Forget the Axpert for a moment.

The Solis connects directly to your DB board. It now powers the entire home from the panels. With me? Has nothing to do whatsoever with the Axpert. 

Right, now you have a power failure. Solis goes off, as it is designed to do. How do you power you house now? You install a UPS right?

That is where the Axpert comes into play again. It is becomes the UPS you need, connected as is to your DB board, nothing changes there.
It is a normal straight forward UPS / DB board installation.

Normal day, how does the Axpert charge the batteries? It charges the batteries from the power the Solis feeds into the DB board during the day.

Found a Sparky who does generator / UPS / solar / normal electrical installations. Some more regs @Jaco de Jongh

Note 1: To connect a UPS to a DB board, you need a CoC.
- DB board must be clearly split, two sides can never touch, of what Eskom feeds and what the UPS feeds. Same with generators.
- DB split must be clear to anyone working on the board that there is a 2nd system in play, when one is not there.
- Or a 2nd separate DB board. Cheaper and better it is said, from 3 sparkies.
- Inverter / UPS / generator must be able to be completely isolated.

Note 2: Solar panels:
1) To get a CoC, must have the new regulation wires installed.
2) Must have a CoC for the panels if you want to sell the house.
... and the fuses and all those goed.

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Perhaps I should first establish exactly what our municipality classifies as requiring registration. One possibility that has not dawned on me yet is the impact of connected solar panels. So here is another scenario. What if I disconnect the solar panels from the Axperts and leave the inverters connected to the grid with the off grid load connected to the output. Then install a freestanding MPPT controller to the solar panels to charge the batteries. If this is classified as stand-alone, it would overcome all problems and would operate same way as an regular backup inverter. Comments kindly invited.

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2 minutes ago, ebrsa said:

Then install a freestanding MPPT controller to the solar panels to charge the batteries.

From MPPT via batts to Axpert ... core of it all lies with the Axpert's internal off-grid design.

Take the MPPT away, and it is a stock standard UPS. 

 

3 minutes ago, ebrsa said:

Perhaps I should first establish exactly what our municipality classifies as requiring registration.

Off-grid or grid tied, CoCT (rest will follow to some degree) wants to know which one you are. Both you register as previously stated. Even if Swartland has no regs, that can change in one meeting. Plan for that. 

As stated over and over, connecting anything to a DB board needs a CoC. That is your starting point. What are you connecting to your DB board? So my advice, when you speak to anyone, ask them about DB board connected UPS'es.

Sparky I saw minutes ago, there are regulations around DB board connected UPS / generators if you want a CoC.

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1 hour ago, ebrsa said:

Or is it your view that as long as solar panels are not connected to the Axperts, they are not classified as grid-tied.

Not our view, it is the fact. If there are no panels connected to a Axpert, then it is a UPS and treated as one and nothing more.

Whether the Axpert meets standard international regulations, seeing as they have no certification whatsoever worth anything I could find asking them direct ... that is a whole different chat for another forum, like a UPS forum. Lets no go there here at all. :-) 

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Points taken @The Terrible Triplett but it seems to me that in a configuration as proposed in my previous post, an Axpert's input or any other cheap line interactive UPS could be plugged into a standard 15A plug or more and the output drive an off grid part of the house. When grid power is available, it passes straight to the load. When grid fails, the inverter starts up and a relay switches the load to that. The line interactive unit also incorporates a battery charger. No registration is required. So far there is no difference to the Axpert operating as a standard UPS as you have previously proposed. Now add a few solar panels to charge the batteries, perhaps even with a Victron MPPT charge controller and still I cannot conceive of anything requiring SSEG registation. Of course one accepts that all changes to the DB requires a CoC. 

Does anything of significance changes if the inverter output is controlled from mains to inverter like when controlled by ICC or simply switching off the mains input in either case of an Axpert or the cheapy inverter. I am just exploring possibilities here and am grateful for the many valuable opinions expressed. I suppose in the final analysis I am going to have to discuss this with the powers that be at our municipality. And yes they do have regulations which I have previously posted and I have much respect for the the Director of Electrical Engineering Services who is always very helpful and a knowledgable person.

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6 minutes ago, ebrsa said:

I have much respect for the the Director of Electrical Engineering Services who is always very helpful and a knowledgable person.

There you go.

Take this entire Axpert question direct to him and ask him how he would accept the connection, as is with what relays to make it off-grid or only as a UPS with the panels connected to say a a Solis?

He would probably consult with CoCT engineers too.

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12 minutes ago, ebrsa said:

... add a few solar panels ... requiring SSEG registration.

Those are the key words. 

I think <=250w of panel/s, do not need any registration. Anything more, you need to prepare to register the system.

 

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