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Microcare 5kw 48v Bi- directional inverters.


LivSol
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Microcare 5kw 48v inverters with build in 50amp battery chargers. Have 3 available, redundant after system overhaul. Still under warranty, and all are latest spec. 100% perfect working condition, cosmetically same as new. R13,500 each onco

 

 

 

 

 

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12 hours ago, plonkster said:

Neither Microcare nor MLT. MLT used to be on there.

Any clue as to why Microcare are not listed and MLT used to be listed and are not anymore?

Edited by LivSol
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1 hour ago, LivSol said:

Any clue as to why Microcare are not listed and MLT used to be listed and are not anymore?

I wish I knew. We discussed yesterday on another thread (or rather I ranted a bit about it) asking if every country really need their own rules. One of the reasons countries have their own rules is often that there is a committee and someone from a local manufacturer is on it. By bending the rules, they are always a little ahead of the foreign makes. In South Africa, this does not appear to be the case, because it seems none of the local guys have the latest NRS097-2-1:2017 certification. What makes it more odd, is that if you really google around a bit, it seems there was a Manufacturer's interest group (MIG) that was consulted on the latest regulations, and it lists someone for both MLT and Microcare as members of this MIG (MLT has more than one).

MLT didn't use a testing house. A third party, which I believe was from Stellenbosch University, witnessed that the tests were done. This was by the older 2010 rules.

Maybe their target market isn't so much the city dwellers? Maybe they were waiting for the 2017 rules to be finalised and are presently in the process of certification? I simply have no idea. We could get @The Terrible Triplett to find out? :-)

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1 hour ago, plonkster said:

We could get @The Terrible Triplett to find out? :-)

Lets see why:

Hi,
 
I see there are no Microcare inverters listed on the City of Cape Towns pre-approved inverter list.
 
May I ask why, as it will increase my costs if I want to install one? 
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41 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

Lets see why:

Hi,
 
I see there are no Microcare inverters listed on the City of Cape Towns pre-approved inverter list.
 
May I ask why, as it will increase my costs if I want to install one? 

I think there is a little bit of the left hand does not know what the right hand is doing, when it comes to the Muncipality. Mlt were approved, then fell off?!

What happened to proudly South African and supporting our local content, jobs and all that. Of course assuming the respective manufacturer is actually making quality components, some are and some are not. Mlt defiantly are!

Edited by LivSol
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@LivSol and @plonkster

Reply:
Morning (TTT) (altered for my family and friends safety :) ) 

I believe this is a Grid Tied Inverters list you are referring to so we wouldn’t fit under that category

As we have only off grid Inverters there wouldn’t be a requirement to be listed.

Regards

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7 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

@LivSol and @plonkster

Reply:
Morning (TTT) (altered for my family and friends safety :) ) 

I believe this is a Grid Tied Inverters list you are referring to so we wouldn’t fit under that category

As we have only off grid Inverters there wouldn’t be a requirement to be listed.

Regards

Who is "WE" you refer to? Microcare , Mlt, other? What about hybrid? No GT, not strictly UPS.

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1 minute ago, LivSol said:

 

Sorry -  First post was not clear.

 

Who is "WE" you refer to? Microcare , Mlt, other? What about hybrid? Not Grid tied, and not strictly UPS. How is that dealt with in terms this new requirement to register?

 

Edited by LivSol
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10 minutes ago, LivSol said:

Who is "WE" you refer to? Microcare , Mlt, other?

We as in Microcare.

Italics part in my post is the email reply from Micorcare on the email I send them above that post, on Plonsters push. :-)

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30 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

We as in Microcare.

Italics part in my post is the email reply from Micorcare on the email I send them above that post, on Plonsters push. :-)

Ah, ok. Thanks TTT for clarifying. So then to answer @seant, no need to be listed on a Grid tied list! As is a UPS i.e. Off Grid inverter. This was always my understanding, but thought perhaps something had changed. Seems not. 

Edited by LivSol
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My research so far is leading me to the following two views:
Off grid:
- Registration is FREE.

Costs are:
- Costly to get a CoC as the circuits are all newly installed, nowhere on a plan = quite a few rands and part replacement involved.
- And assuming the house house earth is as per specs.
- Must be separate from the grid at all times. More parts required. You have to prove that you are off-grid.
- Cheapest option: Rip out all the wires and solar DB, disconnect it all from Eskom if it was connected, have leads powering the loads.

 

Grid tied: Using a 2.5kw Solis approved grid tied inverter.
- Registration is FREE
- No meter change if it is for self consumption. Going for feedback to the grid, that gets expensive. 

Costs are:
- CoC but much cheaper than the off-grid one IF existing house DB and earth is as per specifications.
- Engineers costs are R2500 for small system - off set against the costs of the more expensive off-grid CoC.
So combined, if all is fine with the existing DB and earth, grid tied = +- same cost as getting a off-grid CoC, with a simpler system and more savings.

Need to get a Solis, prices are blerrie good if you know where to shop, and that cost is off-set with all the watts coming into the house early mornings and late afternoons.

Power failures, bleh, easy to sort that with UPS.

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11 minutes ago, LivSol said:

I assume the DC COC is in line with NRS?

Depends, grid tied = CoC + engineer + CoCT approval based on NRS standards.
Off grid = CoC to show that it is a completely off the grid setup, register as off grid, CoCT comes and confirms. What you then do on the circuit, that is your business. :-) 

They check:
DC side has safety measures, disconnects, fuses, surge protection, earthing and all that.
Re. panels and earthing, could be required. Electrician refers to engineers if they are unsure.
AC side tested as well as earthing checks, safety measures in place and all that.

It is all new, a more complex system, so anyone giving a CoC will pull it apart.

We are talking thousands for electrician alone, to get a CoC. Not one cent to CoCT.

Edited by Guest
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Microcare's bi-directional unit CAN work grid-interactive. If you look into the manual, it does explain that option. I think they simply decided to classify the inverter as off-grid, fix the problem by not selling it for its full capabilities in other words.

They also sell a GTI (or used to?) that indicates compliance with NRS097, but hasn't been officially certified. It doesn't look as if their main website links to this page anymore, it looks as if they are now reselling Kaco. Kaco seems to have at least 2010-level paperwork.

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2 hours ago, plonkster said:

Microcare's bi-directional unit CAN work grid-interactive. If you look into the manual, it does explain that option. I think they simply decided to classify the inverter as off-grid, fix the problem by not selling it for its full capabilities in other words.

They also sell a GTI (or used to?) that indicates compliance with NRS097, but hasn't been officially certified. It doesn't look as if their main website links to this page anymore, it looks as if they are now reselling Kaco. Kaco seems to have at least 2010-level paperwork.

Yes, they can be grid interactive, as their is a AC battery charger build in for grid or genet which it can relay too and from, same is true for Mlt Oasis and Powerstar, and of course Victron Multi and Quattro. 

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So I explained to them the issue, the confusion, between grid tied, off grid and UPS with solar panels ...

Microcare reply:
Thank you (TTT) for your comments

To clarify Grid Tied (GT) implies that you are pushing back power into the grid. CoCT requires all of these GT Inverters to be registered with them

As the Microcare Inverter does not have the ability to push power back into the grid this does not apply.

The Microcare Inverter does however have the ability to be connected to the grid to charge the battery bank to run a load.

We have had numerous conversations with the CoCT on this matter and they understand how our Inverters work as a UPS

Perhaps you can list the Inverter as a UPS then if you are connecting to the grid and not an Inverter

I am not familiar with the documentation required and not sure how other installers would complete it for Microcare Inverter installations.

(Edit: Engineer's name) can you comment on this?

Regards

 

See my post on the "other" thread, or is that threat :-) ... this CoCT think is not a local matter. Our local Gov is just more jacked. Jhb Dbn etc has similar regulations for grid connections.

Lets see what their engineer says next on how to do it.

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Thanks for the info. I'm not based in the Cape but I don't want to buy a unit that becomes non compliant as a UPS/inverter at a later stage when similar rules are imposed in Gauteng.  the COC cost etc is not an issue but more of having to replace the inverter too if it doesn't meet the requirements

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15 minutes ago, seant said:

... similar rules are imposed in Gauteng.

See the post on the Constitutional thread, Guateng has same rules since 2016.

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1 hour ago, seant said:

Thanks for the info. I'm not based in the Cape but I don't want to buy a unit that becomes non compliant as a UPS/inverter at a later stage when similar rules are imposed in Gauteng.  the COC cost etc is not an issue but more of having to replace the inverter too if it doesn't meet the requirements

There is zero chance of Microcare becoming non compliant. They are widely used and would leave thousands of customers  in the same boat. Second, they are not subject to same rules as has been pointed out , the don’t feedback into the grid. Also there is a local contact push in SA which Microcare are. There is no risk in installing a Microcare unit whatsoever.

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1 hour ago, LivSol said:

... , the don’t feedback into the grid. 

Uhm, here is the thing. They said off-grid right?

As is my setup. No problem at all bar one little titbit as I am finding out now. 

To register as off-grid, free. Send the papers in, with the wire diagram. (***)
When you have submitted the paperwork, the send someone to come and check. Free again. So you have to prove to him all is done as per the CoC.

(***) And here is the bite in the titbit ... That CoC and wire diagram, installed outside of the house circuit ... going to cost a pretty penny to get signed off. 

Not saying it will be like that for all ... maybe you know someone that can sign off cheap.

 I'm still shopping therein the realization that grid tied may be cheaper long term, and adds value to the house.

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7 hours ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

 I'm still shopping therein the realization that grid tied may be cheaper long term, and adds value to the house.

Even having an engineer involved, the new meter and all the other odds and ends. Unless it's a hybrid unit then you loose almost all the solar back up advantages

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8 hours ago, LivSol said:

Second, they are not subject to same rules as has been pointed out , they don’t feedback into the grid

Doesn't matter, as we've seen. What the powers that be care about is that it is specifically designed to AVOID accidental grid feedback under fault conditions, or to avoid such a fault condition in the first place. But I'm with you about Microcare's general level of good-guy-ness. In general I like their stuff, even if I did back in the day have some mixed emotions about a charge controller of theirs :-)

(It's still in a box... trips out the moment I go over 200W. But taking it apart and attempting a repair was an education in terms of how one design an MPPT!)

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1 hour ago, seant said:

Even having an engineer involved, the new meter and all the other odds and ends.
Unless it's a hybrid unit then you loose almost all the solar back up advantages

Nope and Nope.

I do not intend feeding anything back to the grid. It is called Self Consumption. You are thinking of Net Metering.

Caveats with Net Metering are:
1) Need a new bi-directional meter - about R2k + installation.
2) A charge per day for the connection.
3) And after 12 months one has to have bought more from municipality than what one has pushed back.

Against the law, today, to sell electricity to anyone. Only Eskom may sell.

I still have the Phoenix. All I need to figure is to switch the Interlock trigger around.

 

EDIT: My intention today is to be able to switch the panels from grid tied inverter over to MPPT controller, if there is a extended outage.

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