New offgrider with questions pls..

[Petum]

greetings!

i have stumbled apon an auction and managed to organize a Huawei ESM-48100A power cube Li-ion battery.

Please see attached datasheet and please take a moment to advise recommended settings etc for me axpert!

http://e-file.huawei.com/en-HK/material/onLineView?MaterialID=70fc496df59b48ac86b713c4adc4d269

[Chris Hobson]

So long cycle life is dependent on a charging rate of 0.2C. The don't say what would happen if you charge at 1C but Pylontech and others  use the same trick.

So I would have:

 Program 2  20A per module

Program 11 20A per module

Program 26 53.5V

Program 27 50.7V

@weber and @coulomb could give you a more refined answer.

 

 

 

 

[Chris Hobson]

7 hours ago, DaveSA said:

Would also like to know if you have 2 of these 5KVA 4000W Inverters in Parallel and 2x 4.8KWH Li-Ion Batteries - would you then set each Inverter to charge max at 40 Amps ?

First work out what your batteries can accept - I use my own system as an example. Each Pylontech 2.4kWh module can charge at 25A so a battery bank of 4 can charge at 100A. Divide by by number of inverter equals 50A each.

For illustrative purposes if I had 3 module that would be 75A so I could set one to 40A and one to 30A to give us a combined total of 70A close enough to 75A.

So if you had two Huawei modules 20A each rather than 40A each.

[Petum]

and so the story continues....

I setup the huawei batt module last night and something isnt right!

to test the system I ran load of around 1kw, the systems runs fine. 

to further test the system I ran load of around 2kw, the whole system trips and starts to reset. As the axpert turns on and the load is drawn,  the system turns off and resets itself.. I turn off all I can, but seems the fridges and other stuff draws too much on startup..... this did not happen with my flooded batteries...

it continues to try startup (tripping and starting up) until I turn the AC back on...

any advise please?

[SilverNodashi]

9 hours ago, Petum said:

and so the story continues....

I setup the huawei batt module last night and something isnt right!

to test the system I ran load of around 1kw, the systems runs fine. 

to further test the system I ran load of around 2kw, the whole system trips and starts to reset. As the axpert turns on and the load is drawn,  the system turns off and resets itself.. I turn off all I can, but seems the fridges and other stuff draws too much on startup..... this did not happen with my flooded batteries...

it continues to try startup (tripping and starting up) until I turn the AC back on...

any advise please?

What did you set  Program 2 and Program 11 to?

[Petum]

Hi

These are my new settings. These are from a guy that claims to set these up with axpert etc.. Please advise if not correct. He recons can charge the Huawei eps at 50A but I've set it to 30A... As the battery was not new.  I'm hoping its not the battery... 

1 UTI

2 30A

3 ups

4 use

11 30A

12 46v

13 54v

26 56.4

27 54

29 42

34 58.4

35 60

36 120

I really appreciate you taking the time 

[Petum]

Just managed to download data sheet. 

Charge voltage is 53.4

Charge current typically ≤ 0.4C

Required recharge end voltage ≥ 51v

Required volt after open circuit for 8 hours ≥ 48v

Please help me as to what program these fit into on the axpert... 

 

[Chris Hobson]

Ok 

Program 2 I would stick with 30A  (you not sure about what your battery's history is therefore I would be conservative  - 40A max

Program 5 User

Program 11 30A

Program 12 48

Program 13 51V

Program 26 53.4V

program 27 51V

program 29 47V  (at the outside 46V)

 

I think these are 15S and therefore fairly similar to Pylontechs.

[Petum]

Just not winning here. very frustrating indeed!!

I have 2 of these hauwei battery modules. I have fully charged them and tested how long they would last (seperately). Drawing only 500w, the system lasts for 30mins....

Either they are not compatible. The BMS of the battery and AXPERT both try manage the voltages and it isnt charging correctly.... or BOTH (?) batteries as stuffed.

I'm almost ready to throw in the towel... in the dark...

Im out of options...

Any advise ... ;-(

 

Edited December 1, 2018 by Petum

[Petum]

Im aiming at putting them in parallel with the lead acid batteries but only if its worth it... 

they can hardly keep running 500w for an hour....

date on batteries is 2017-08-25 so hardly old.. SOC was around 49/50v. 

 

[Chris Hobson]

I would not parallel  those batteries with lead-acids you would be breaking all the rules. You would have batteries of different manufacture, different chemistries and probably different Ah ratings. There is no way is hell that you are going to get strings that have the same resistance and behave in the same manner.

[Chris Hobson]

 

On 2018/12/03 at 8:21 AM, Petum said:

Im aiming at putting them in parallel with the lead acid batteries but only if its worth it... 

they can hardly keep running 500w for an hour....

date on batteries is 2017-08-25 so hardly old.. SOC was around 49/50v. 

 

There is something basic going wrong here. I  fear your module may have some bad cells.  You say you have charged them to 100% SOC how are you determining this?

 

[Petum]

i agree regarding putting them in parallel with lead...

i also think there is something wrong with the modules. but highly unlikely.. they would protect themselves and were used for only a couple months. 

Regarding SOC, it gets the the voltage to what i set it to in program 26 - 53.4V. I can see the amps go from 0 to 20 amps and slowly decreases until no amps - presumably this means full. I then leave the system to charge for a day using utility or solar but the outcome is the same. drawing 500w only lasts for 30mins or so...

 

[Chris Hobson]

The BMS may not react to too higher charging rate. The cells should accept charge at 20 Amps or what ever you have set it to as you approach 100% there may be a brief period of discharge but essentially the battery should charge at full tilt until they are at capacity. Your observation that the charging rate gradually declines has me concerned.

[___]

3 hours ago, Chris Hobson said:

Your observation that the charging rate gradually declines has me concerned

Someone took out the LFP cells, stuffed in 4 x 12ah sealded lead acids and resold it...

[___]

One way to check if its been tampered with. Each rack should weigh 73kg according to the spec sheet. If it has small lead acids stuffed into it, it should weigh significantly less.

[Petum]

On 2018/09/10 at 11:48 PM, plonkster said:

This bank will be happiest below 1KW.

Remember the old Rolls Royce joke about having to ask the price?

Lithium Iron Phosphate has reduced significantly in price and is now similar in price to lead acid banks for a similar capacity (usually at slightly deeper discharge levels). If you're going to save up for something, save up for a nice Pylontech rack. Your 4 x 100Ah bank stores 2.4kwh at a 50% DoD, if you aim for 2 x Pylontech racks you can extend that to around 4kwh for around 30k.

 

So.... Ive finally took the plunge and bought 2 x 3.5kw pylontech batteries. I will also be taking a punch from my wife. but that's my issue.

Please can you clarify what my settings should be on my Axpert 5kva ?

Thanks to @Padwan, I have some settings to work with but would appreciate any further advise.

The firmware is below (where I think is the issue)

U1. 74.  20

U2. 04. 12

I have 6 panels.

Below are the settings @Padwan kindly sent me. and below that are what Pylon recommends.. I played around last night and not convinced the batts and the axpert are talking the same language! 

I was soo excited, I wanted to sleep next to me batteries last night!

Your help is appreciated!

 

[Padwan]

1 hour ago, Petum said:

I played around last night and not convinced the batts and the axpert are talking the same language! 

 

There are a number of things to consider here. First, afaik Axpert's factory unpatched firmware misreports a number of readouts, I've given you a brief overview of that in our PM discussion.

Chief among is an early float bug, and in case of LFP  most notably the voltage thresholds are far too high in the factory firmware. For example, the battery warning comes on at two volts above the cutoff setting. 

So to start the conversation, what are you using to monitor your Axpert/Batteries and what does stand out to you that lead you to conclude they are not speaking the same language?

[Coulomb]

On 2019/02/05 at 11:41 PM, Petum said:

The firmware is below (where I think is the issue)

U1. 74.  20

U2. 04. 12

Those are the latest factory firmware versions for 5 kW (PF1) machines without the 64 V capability. Unfortunately, there is no patched firmware for these, to fix the problems that @Padwan has mentioned. If you happened to buy a 64 V model instead, it would have come with firmware version 72.20, for which patched firmware is available.

[Petum]

Afternoon Gentle Sirs!

Apologies for late reply.

I made the beginner mistake by assuming the axpert panel gave the correct battery SOC..

I did notice that my 6 x 300W panels was no where near enough.. I now have 6 x 300w and 6 x 330w panels running. I can get around 2.2kw  to 2.3kw from solar at its peak.

my current setup:

• 1 x Axpert 5000va - setup as advised above and attached.
• panels as above.
• 2 x 3.6kwh pylon tech batteries.

I have tested the system and can report as follows: (with the aim to

1. - The AC in the evening kicks in almost immediately after the sun goes down and charges to set Volts. - Is this correct?
2. - Although drawing minimal, the battery is almost empty at 7am the next morning? my idle current draw is only around 400w to 600w's.

Please correct if im wrong but I think I need about 2 more pylon 3.6 batteries (i have the box for 4 off)? just need to win the powerball.

I obviously also need a more accurate monitor. I'm looking for something simple. I have been suggested something like this  https://centurionsolar.co.za/client-screenshots/

or if there is something else anyone can suggest, im open ears.

any other advise is much appreciated.

 

[Coulomb]

1 hour ago, Petum said:

I can get around 2.2kw  to 2.3kw from solar at its peak.

That's partly because you will have set your maximum charge current to 50 A (setting 02). 50 A x ~50 V = ~2500 W. The extra solar power isn't always wasted; in non-ideal conditions (whih is most of the time), you'll be using all the power that the panels can deliver.

1 hour ago, Petum said:

The AC in the evening kicks in almost immediately after the sun goes down and charges to set Volts. - Is this correct?

By AC, I assume you mean the utility charging (via the grid, AC input). That sounds like you are using the SOL output source priority (setting 01). That might be appropriate if you want your batteries to be as ready as possible for a blackout. (Sounds like this might be a priority in South Africa.) But then I don't see how your battery is almost empty by 7am.

If you're wanting to use as little utility energy as possible, you'll want the SbU output source priority (setting 01). Then you won't get the utility charging every sundown.

1 hour ago, Petum said:

my idle current draw is only around 400w to 600w's.

That's actually on the high side (mine is about 150-450 W), and will empty your modest sized battery overnight. Are you running an old fridge and freezer? Perhaps incandescent lights?

Edited March 11, 2019 by Coulomb
"a fair bit" -> "on the high side"

[Petum]

14 minutes ago, Coulomb said:

That's partly because you will have set your maximum charge current to 50 A (setting 02). 50 A x ~50 V = ~2500 W. The extra solar power isn't always wasted; in non-ideal conditions (whih is most of the time), you'll be using all the power that the panels can deliver.

By AC, I assume you mean the utility charging (via the grid, AC input). That sounds like you are using the SOL output source priority (setting 01). That might be appropriate if you want your batteries to be as ready as possible for a blackout. (Sounds like this might be a priority in South Africa.) But then I don't see how your battery is almost empty by 7am.

If you're wanting to use as little utility energy as possible, you'll want the SbU output source priority (setting 01). Then you won't get the utility charging every sundown.

That's actually on the high side (mine is about 150-450 W), and will empty your modest sized battery overnight. Are you running an old fridge and freezer? Perhaps incandescent lights?

yeah, if i dont have my batteries fully charged for the night and we are load shed, i will get kicked out of my house! the only way I can see the SOC, is via the SOC lights on the pylon batteries, and by 7am, there is only one light on, which is around 15% i guess... would another battery or 2 sort this out for sure?

i thought 400-500w (idle load) would be on the low side! no old fridge/freezers. but constant users are security cameras, DVR, baby monitors etc.. have gas geyser and stove top...

 

[Youda]

Hi Petum,

the problem is, that in the AC world, 500W is not everytime exactly equal to 500VA. Also, the Inverter itself needs some power to run, even if the AC load is zero. In order to know what's the real load on the batteries, you need to measure the current on the DC side.

To be honest, I'm pretty impressed that you are able to survive the night having just 2x 3.6kWh Pylon battery. Sooner or later, somebody will turn-on a dishwasher or tubmle dryer in the evening and the batteries will be drained. I have 20kWh of lithium now, and sometimes when I'm doing a few batches of laundry overnight, the batteries are below 50%. In my case, the tumble dryer consumes the most, I would say.

Therefore, I would really add some more Pylon bricks, if you can afford it. The benefits would be:

- more capacity
- you can set higher charging current, as the current will be distributed among more bricks
- discharging batteries to 20% SoC or even below hurts them a lot. With more brick, you will ease these cycles

Anyway, be prepared that even with more than 14kWh of lithium, there will be a day in the future where the batteries will be depleted. For example a grid blackout lasting for couple of days, where sky will be cloudy too. For cases like these, it's best to have a diesel or gasoline electric power generator. The price is minimal, especially when compared to the price of the batteries. Therefore, I would say that economically it does not make sense to aim for 50 or 100kWh of lithium.

 

By the way - what was the final result with Huawei batteries?

 

 

[Youda]

9 hours ago, Petum said:

yeah, if i dont have my batteries fully charged for the night and we are load shed, i will get kicked out of my house!

By the way, I love the way you are talking about your beloved wife

[Petum]

13 hours ago, Youda said:

By the way, I love the way you are talking about your beloved wife

My beloved wife indeed...   happy wife, happy life! (i just need to make sure its charged should we be turned off, specially after spending a small fortune)

with my idling consumption being around 600w, can I aim at another 2 x 3.6 'bricks' and call it a day?

with regards to the monitoring, I'm not really too fussed about seeing whats being used on graphs etc, just wana be off the grid much as possible. the centurion pie gadget looks too complex and doesnt really add value...

with regards to the Huawei batteries, was indeed a loss. I just couldnt get any life out of them. eventully called it and gave them back. the guy used another (not axpert) inverter, charged them and did a load test. they lasted very well. around 3kw if not mistaken, but they just werent compatible with the axpert. pity.

good luck.

power on