I am currently face with some challenges in collecting and preparing data for a Consultant. 

A client wants a quote on a rather big installation, planing to go off-grid. He currently has a 25KVA 3 phase connection, but applied for an upgrade to a 200kva 3 phase connection.   He wants to compare going complete off-grid vs paying for the upgrade, but refuse to tell me what package he took from Eskom and what the upgrade cost are. This makes it completely impossible to  compare options or calculate ROI. 

Option one: Continue with upgrade and install solar to reduce the bill

Option two: Go completely off-grid , but for that I need the Eskom fees and rates to do the comparisons. 

Does anyone on the forum have an Idea of the Upgrade cost from 25-200kva 3 phase. I am still waiting for answers from the local Eskom on different billing structures in our area. 

To give an idea of what the demand is. Building one of 20 looks like this.

Eskom quotes individual (exorbitant) rates based on the actual work required, whereas City Power for example would quote off a menu - so there is no way to estimate the Eskom upgrade cost.

1 hour ago, Jaco de Jongh said:

currently has a 25KVA 3 phase connection, but applied for an upgrade to a 200kva 3 phase connection

What is his peak use and for what part of the day? I ask because off-grid is going to be significantly more expensive compared to just brigding the gap with a large parallel Victron setup that does peak shaving.

If I read that correctly, he needs 35kw at times, so he's short 10kva? So three 15kva Quattros or some other combination could slice off the top 12kva or so? That should significantly reduce the battery size and cost compared to off-grid. I don't know what the upgrade costs though, we're probably talking around the 7 digits area for this kind of equipment.

29 minutes ago, plonkster said:

What is his peak use and for what part of the day?

Just on this one building he wants to use 7100 watt 24/7. Then there is a 9 buildings with  28 Air cons and 9 x 3 kw Geysers  , then another 10 buildings including a butchery with cold rooms and and and, that is roof height. All I know it the power trips 30 times a day , that is why they applied for the bigger connection and want to look at solar as an option,.

Currently a rough estimation on building one is sitting at 1.7mil , but will drop a bit if I buy in bulk. But I cant justify that if I cant compare it to actual rates and the owner doesn't want to share the needed info to make a comparison. 

55 minutes ago, Jaco de Jongh said:

... the owner doesn't want to share the needed info to make a comparison. 

Should not stop you from estimating, if the client wants a proper quote, then he must pay a fee for that, which goes towards the installation, otherwise not.

4 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

Should not stop you from estimating,

It wont stop me, it will only make my life difficult trying to explain to him why he has to fork out that kind of money. By knowing the rates I can also Calculate an estimated ROI, something I cant do without the info he is withholding..  

EDIT: I have downloaded rates for limpopo, not sure how accurate it is, but will do comparison using that as a baseline. Should give him some kind of an idea. 

1 minute ago, Jaco de Jongh said:

It wont stop me, it will only make my life difficult trying to explain to him why he has to fork out that kind of money. By knowing the rates I can also Calculate an estimated ROI, something I cant do without the info he is withholding..  

I hear you.

Either they don't have the exact figure or they just want a price on solar costs as is, testing the waters so to speak.

Or they have a formula to work out their own ROI.

5 hours ago, Jaco de Jongh said:

on building one is sitting at 1.7mil

A 15kva Quattro is 5225 Euro, or around 85k. He will need three of those. So that's about a quarter of a mill. Then a really really big battery, but I believe BlueNova makes a 65kwh box for around 450k, of which you might need two. Then there's the PV panels needed to recharge all that. It might be possible to do it for under 1.7 mil, but I'm thumb-sucking. Still, this is what I would do: peak-shave and keep the existing connection.

Hi Jaco

When I bought my place it had a 3 phase 100 kva transformer. To connect it was about R 35k for the deposit and then R 3500 pm for the line fee. As I understand when you upgrade you only pay a new deposit fee for the transformer and then your line rental goes up as well. When I downgraded to the single phase transformer I had to pay the deposit of R 9k and they took the big one so I am not sure but an guessing it will work the other way as well.
This was 2 years ago so as an estimate I would x2 +7% pa on my prices as an guesstimate.

I assume that you have the Tariff rates for Eskom but here they are just for fun
http://www.eskom.co.za/CustomerCare/TariffsAndCharges/Pages/Tariffs_And_Charges.aspx

 

Edited September 28, 20186 yr by PaulF007

If you were to perform this upgrade in Cape Town a fair portion of the upgrade costs would go towards "Network Development Costs" as follows: (2017 rates)

Upgrade from 25 kVA to 200 kVA, 3Phase:

1) Network Costs for 11KV / Low Voltage would be = R792 + R1908 * Factor = R1747 / kVA. So for a 175 kVA upgrade = R305 725

2) Then you would still have cable costs,  installation costs, new meter costs etc.

As an example in order to upgrade a commercial building supply from 300 amps to 400 amps (3 Phase) estimated costs was approximately R215 602 as follows:

1) Network Charges = R121 067

2) Cable Costs = R39 535

3) Installation costs = R40 000

4) New AMI Meter = R15 000

6 hours ago, Carl said:

Upgrade from 25 kVA to 200 kVA, 3Phase:

Just received a copy of the 51 page Budget Quote from the owner. 

And they will be on the Ruraflex Tariff

Now at least I can start a Comparison. 

 

 

 

 

On 2018/09/27 at 3:54 PM, plonkster said:

So three 15kva Quattros or some other combination could slice off the top 12kva or so? 

@plonkster, I got quoted on SMA, need 8 inverters to do this job , they use GTi's as MPPT's. Asked them to re-quote on a blue system. 

Please advice on the management system needed to run Quattro's with many mppt's for this application. 

On 2018/09/27 at 3:54 PM, plonkster said:

If I read that correctly, he needs 35kw at times,

It drawing a constant  load of 7100watt 24/7. The 34000kwh panels is to supply the load at day as well as fill the storage up at night. I feel the quattro is oversized. I guess a 5kw per phase would be more than enough imo, or what am i missing?

On 2018/09/27 at 9:49 PM, plonkster said:

Still, this is what I would do: peak-shave and keep the existing connection.

I also want to suggest this, but client wants to see the full picture, including backup. with this option the panel requirements drop to below 10kw. 

22 minutes ago, Jaco de Jongh said:

Please advice on the management system needed to run Quattro's with many mppt's for this application. 

You need a Venus-GX and VE-direct cables for the MPPTs (VE-Bus included in the Venus-GX, just connect with a UTP/ethernet cable).

I'm at this very moment working on benchmarking to see how many MPPTs we can connect to a Venus-GX (using a USB hub to extend it). At the moment the maximum is 15 MPPTs, at least as far as I can remember.

PV-inverters (aka GTIs) have a way higher load on the Venus-GX than MPPTs, you're limited to around 4 PV-inverters (though I must add, this is an ongoing issue that is being worked on), and using MPPTs is way smoother as well.

There is however a way to get around it: You can fit a Carlo Gavazzi energy meter to measure the combined output of the PV-inverters (making them look like a single unit) and use that instead.

At the power levels talked about here you're likely installing heaps of 250/100 MPPTs, which I think is less expensive than a PV-inverter?

OK, so that is a bit muddled, but basically I'm telling you you can use either method (GTI or MPPT), but there are some caveats as to how many you can connect to the Venus-GX, keep it in mind. The Venus-GX runs the monitoring as well as the control loop for the inverters.

You want a Venus-GX over the CCGX. It has twice the processing capability, and it is cheaper.

32 minutes ago, Jaco de Jongh said:

5kw per phase would be more than enough imo, or what am i missing?

Just remember that 5kva is a peak rating. When running parallel with the grid it is limited to 80% of that value. There is however a 8KVA unit as well, which sounds like it would be perfect.

12 minutes ago, plonkster said:

GTI

Sorry I am terribly confused at this moment, looked at so many options. Victrons GTI's is MultiGrid and ?

Sorry about the confusion.

Victron's inverters are all hybrid. They can take power from the grid and put them into the batteries, or take power from the batteries and put them into the grid.

But you need a way to get power back into the batteries. You can either use MPPTs to do that, or PV-inverters (like the Fronius for example). If you use MPPTs, then the power goes in on the DC side. If you use PV-inverters, the power comes in on the AC side and the cluster of Quattros/Multis charge the batteries. Because they are all tied together into the Venus-GX, the system always knows how much PV is available (even on the AC side) and can ensure that you don't use actual grid power to charge the batteries, you only use what is left after running your loads.

It is pretty typical to use PV-inverters (what we call a GTI, a Fronius or an SMA) to get the power into the system, especially if most of it will be used during the day. The cluster of Quattros/Multis simply stores the surplus or makes up the difference from the batteries.

So I am just pointing out you have a choice. Go on youtube and watch the ESS webinar, it explains the different systems.

Here you go.

 

Good day,

I need to downgrade from 3 Phase to 2 Phase electricity on my property. Please advise on who to contact and go about it.

2 hours ago, Henn said:

Good day,

I need to downgrade from 3 Phase to 2 Phase electricity on my property. Please advise on who to contact and go about it.

Downgrading to single phase is common. But 2 phase supply isn't.

Tell us more why you want to do this..

4 hours ago, Henn said:

Good day,

I need to downgrade from 3 Phase to 2 Phase electricity on my property. Please advise on who to contact and go about it.

Why not just stop using the extra phase?

Also, who is your electricy supplier - direct from Eskom or via munisipality?

I want to install 3 phase, so I want to know it's going to cost how much. It's for mini bakery equipment.

 

 

 

6 hours ago, Mpontsheng said:

I want to install 3 phase, so I want to know it's going to cost how much. It's for mini bakery equipment.

Get a quote from the municipality..