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Newbie Question - Does hybrid mean you will never overload the inverter(if the grid is available)


Keill

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When I google this or ask installers, I'm getting mixed answers.

Some suggest that a hybrid inverter will get any extra load it needs, from the grid, if its overloaded.
Some suggest that even a hybrid inverter will fault/cut off if overloaded.
When I say overloaded, meaning if its a 5kw inverter and my load exceeds that.

Or is the truth somewhere in-between, certain makes/,models of inverters can and some can't?

Thanks for your time.

Edited by Keill
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2 hours ago, Keill said:

When I google this or ask installers, I'm getting mixed answers.

Some suggest that a hybrid inverter will get any extra load it needs, from the grid, if its overloaded.
Some suggest that even a hybrid inverter will fault/cut off if overloaded.
When I say overloaded, meaning if its a 5kw inverter and my load exceeds that.

Or is the truth somewhere in-between, certain makes/,models of inverters can and some can't?

Thanks for your time.

No. The inverter cannot bypass current higher than it is speced to do. PC board tracks have a limit as well as the relays. 

Some 5kw can do 22A. Others 35A. All the info is normally in the specs for all to read. No need to belief wrong info provided. 

If I doubt get a 2nd opinion providing the detail of the inverter. 

I few very clever installers and members in the know here. 

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4 hours ago, Keill said:

When I google this or ask installers, I'm getting mixed answers.

Some suggest that a hybrid inverter will get any extra load it needs, from the grid, if its overloaded.
Some suggest that even a hybrid inverter will fault/cut off if overloaded.
When I say overloaded, meaning if its a 5kw inverter and my load exceeds that.

Or is the truth somewhere in-between, certain makes/,models of inverters can and some can't?

Thanks for your time.

Basically 5kw inverters are easy to overload in a normal household. Even if you have a Gas stove and a solar geyser. A few items like a microwave, toaster, dishwasher and or washer and dryer to name a few. Deye/sunsynk came along and became very popular because their inverters specified how much more power could be used when grid is available. This means that when grid is not available yes you will overload your 5kw inverter. 

Have a look at the specs for the deye/sunsynk and solis and see for yourself. 

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4 hours ago, Keill said:

When I google this or ask installers, I'm getting mixed answers.

Some suggest that a hybrid inverter will get any extra load it needs, from the grid, if its overloaded.
Some suggest that even a hybrid inverter will fault/cut off if overloaded.
When I say overloaded, meaning if its a 5kw inverter and my load exceeds that.

Or is the truth somewhere in-between, certain makes/,models of inverters can and some can't?

Thanks for your time.

The definition for a hybrid inverter: Hybrid solar inverter is the combination of a solar inverter and a battery inverter into a single piece of equipment that can intelligently manage power from your solar panels, solar batteries, and the utility grid at the same time. The Sunsynk 5kw inverter can produce 25 amps max(5700watts) when inverting(island) but in pass through it can produce max 35 amps or 8000 watts(8kw) 

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37 minutes ago, Buyeye said:

Basically 5kw inverters are easy to overload in a normal household. Even if you have a Gas stove and a solar geyser. A few items like a microwave, toaster, dishwasher and or washer and dryer to name a few. Deye/sunsynk came along and became very popular because their inverters specified how much more power could be used when grid is available. This means that when grid is not available yes you will overload your 5kw inverter. 

Have a look at the specs for the deye/sunsynk and solis and see for yourself. 

What he said :)

I have a 5kW Sunsynk.  When Eskom is on and I turn on say 7kW worth of devices, +/- 5kW will come out of the battery / solar array via the Sunsynk, and 2kW from Eskom

If Eskom is off however, and the Mrs. turns on the kettle, the coffee machine and microwave all at once, the inverter will trip.   This has happened and some education was required.  In short, you can do around 2 high draw devices at once like kettle and coffee machine.  But wait for kettle to finish up before turning on the micro

Edited by hilt_ctn
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4 hours ago, Keill said:

When I google this or ask installers, I'm getting mixed answers.

Some suggest that a hybrid inverter will get any extra load it needs, from the grid, if its overloaded.
Some suggest that even a hybrid inverter will fault/cut off if overloaded.
When I say overloaded, meaning if its a 5kw inverter and my load exceeds that.

Or is the truth somewhere in-between, certain makes/,models of inverters can and some can't?

Thanks for your time.

There are (or will be) two types of load in your home. The essential loads, that are backed up when the grid is down, and the non-essential loads which are not backed up.

So in my home the outbuildings and the swimming pool are not backed up. When there is no grid, they get no power.

In my case, when the grid is up, the power for the essentials still flows through the inverter, and the limit always applies FOR THE ESSENTIALS. So any time I draw 20A for more than 10 seconds through the essential circuits the inverter is going to trip. If there is PV or grid available it will restart within a few seconds.

So this is where you need to get details. The grid-off situation is easy to understand. The difference between different brands and models is how they handle the situation where the essentials are drawing more than the rated power, but grid is still available. Even then there probably is a limit, because all that electricity is flowing through circuitry, and any circuit has a limit somewhere.

More generally, this is part of the learning curve when you switch to solar. There isn't a system that cannot be overloaded, it's just a question of how much load it takes to trip it. Generally life goes on, but as other comments here tell us, there are situations (usually arising in the kitchen) that can cause a surprising amount of power to be drawn for a short period of time (but long enough to cause a trip). So we all go through a process of finding out what the system can and cannot tolerate, how it reacts, and learning how to make best use of it both as a money saver and as a backup device without too much interruption to our lifestyle. This situation is different for every household. Where I am we are two adults who have accepted that they can't turn on the airfryer, the kettle, the microwave and the dishwasher at the same time and get on with our life. If there were more people in the house, with more different routines, more demands on hot water, different ideas of what must be backed up, then a different set of compromises and/or expenses would result.

If you start off with an 8kW inverter you will have considerably more headroom.

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3 hours ago, TaliaB said:

The definition for a hybrid inverter: Hybrid solar inverter is the combination of a solar inverter and a battery inverter into a single piece of equipment that can intelligently manage power from your solar panels, solar batteries, and the utility grid at the same time. The Sunsynk 5kw inverter can produce 25 amps max(5700watts) when inverting(island) but in pass through it can produce max 35 amps or 8000 watts(8kw) 

A slight correction here. These values are for production by the Sunsynk. The 5kW can bypass 35A and the 8kW 53A when on bypass when the grid is on. Axpert type can normally only bypass the inverter output in kW on bypass. The Phocos Any grid can bypass a lot higher value than its rating when there is grid. This is one of the reasons why it is more expensive. 

@hilt_ctn gave a good example why it is seen that what the inverter cannot provide you can get from the grid. This only applies to the non essentials which is not part of the back up loads. This is typical how string or grid ties inverters work. 

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@Scorp007 kindly define "bypass", my hope and faith is that when I say "bypass", I would be intending on the DB to mean if the inverter ever packs up, I "bypass" the inverter and I am now back onto the grid till my inverter is either fixed or replaced and nothing is going through the inverter or from batteries to my load. Are we of the same understanding? Reason I'm asking is, my whole household except Solar geyser and Stove is on "essentials".

Edited by Moffat
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20 minutes ago, Moffat said:

@Scorp007 kindly define "bypass", my hope and faith is that when I say "bypass", I would be intending on the DB to mean if the inverter ever packs up, I "bypass" the inverter and I am now back onto the grid till my inverter is either fixed or replaced and nothing is going through the inverter or from batteries to my load. Are we of the same understanding? Reason I'm asking is, my whole household except Solar geyser and Stove is on "essentials".

Bypass is when there is grid and the inverter is not using battery or PV. This means the inverter is not doing any work but is merely taking the grid and sending it to the inverter load output. This is limited by the power going through PC Board tracks and the output relay fitted. This is like the output from a UPS when there is grid. 

The other bypass is when using the transfer switch when one needs to remove the inverter. One is internal to the inverter and another is external. 

Here are the values for a Phocos. The 3kW unit can bypass 4.5kW from grid but when off grid and the inverter has to generate the output it is limited to the inverter rating. 

IMG_20231214_193414.thumb.jpg.161f6117078952a1c90743f36c28f86b.jpg

Edited by Scorp007
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"Bypass is when there is grid and the inverter is not using battery or PV. This means the inverter is not doing any work but is merely taking the grid and sending it to the inverter load output."

Does this mean the bypass load can exceed the rated grid down (ups,) load or is it still limited to that ups side rating?

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3 minutes ago, FixAMess said:

 

Does this mean the bypass load can exceed the rated grid down (ups,) load or is it still limited to that ups side rating?

It is inverter specific. Axperts are normally limited by the inverter rating as the same overload unit is used on the grid input for bypass and inverting output. Refer to my picture for the Phocos. 

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18 minutes ago, Scorp007 said:

Bypass is when there is grid and the inverter is not using battery or PV. This means the inverter is not doing any work but is merely taking the grid and sending it to the inverter load output. This is limited by the power going through PC Board tracks and the output relay fitted. This is like the output from a UPS when there is grid. 

The other bypass is when using the transfer switch when one needs to remove the inverter. One is internal to the inverter and another is external. 

Here are the values for a Phocos. The 3kW unit can bypass 4.5kW from grid but when off grid and the inverter has to generate the output it is limited to the inverter rating. 

IMG_20231214_193414.thumb.jpg.161f6117078952a1c90743f36c28f86b.jpg

So if one puts a correct SPD and Smart Voltage Regulator, which is set to limit voltage as per specific inverter, then this means, ideally there should not be an overload but the SPD or Voltage Regulator will not supply any power beyond what is being demanded by the loads then, which should result in the device demanding the load tripping or cutting off... yes?

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20 minutes ago, Moffat said:

So if one puts a correct SPD and Smart Voltage Regulator, which is set to limit voltage as per specific inverter, then this means, ideally there should not be an overload but the SPD or Voltage Regulator will not supply any power beyond what is being demanded by the loads then, which should result in the device demanding the load tripping or cutting off... yes?

For a long weekend thinking you have lost me. Where does a SPD come into play. Even a voltage regulator as we merely using the level the grid provides. 

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27 minutes ago, Scorp007 said:

For a long weekend thinking you have lost me. Where does a SPD come into play. Even a voltage regulator as we merely using the level the grid provides. 

Sorry @Scorp007 Let me paint my scenario and I pick your brain. Inverter is 5kW, surge for 5seconds to say 5,500w (these arbitrary numbers). Grid is available, but pass-through from grid to load is up to a maximum of say 8,000w for 10seconds. Just forget about SPD. If you one has a Voltage Regulator which can be set to 8,000w or just under which is the maximum of the inverter, then in theory there'll be no inverter overload, the appliances or equipment demanding that power would most likely cut out due to insufficient power and the inverter would not blow up. However, an inverter if it's pass-through maximum power is lower than what is going through it, the inverter will overload, likely blow or at best it may cut-off if the overload is tolerable, yes? So my thinking was about the architecture of having a voltage regulator that can limit grid out so the inverter is protected... food for thought?

Now @Keill short answer is, yes an inverter can experience an overload, if the voltage passing through it exceeds it's rated maximum capacity because the demand is available from the grid but going through the inverter. Picture 5000litres of water from a Jojo tank having to pass through a straw. The garden or pool at the end may be able to accommodate the 5000litres, but going through the straw is the limitation hence the straw will burst.

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1 hour ago, Moffat said:

So my thinking was about the architecture of having a voltage regulator that can limit grid out so the inverter is protected... food for thought?

Current regulator on load side is available called energy controll unit where the load will be limited according to current switching specification of said unit.

SACU05.jpg.8526b1e35fa51ccc8bac256f3d290601.jpg

Below 3 units wired into a db board where the stove hob will switch the under floor heating off when 3 plates are switched on simultaneously.

20230302_101840.thumb.jpg.6c18eee606af80bc68c0207eae1f5947.jpg

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16 minutes ago, TaliaB said:

Current regulator on load side is available called energy controll unit where the load will be limited according to current switching specification of said unit.

SACU05.jpg.8526b1e35fa51ccc8bac256f3d290601.jpg

Below 3 units wired into a db board where the stove hob will switch the under floor heating off when 3 plates are switched on simultaneously.

20230302_101840.thumb.jpg.6c18eee606af80bc68c0207eae1f5947.jpg

Great units of yesteryear. Closer to the Sunsynk. Your can control the load via settings and also do it via a APP and adjust it remotely. 

No problem to still use them to switch off certain loads by then it is a fixed value based on the current of the unit. 

@Moffat Your previous questions around using 8kw that the inverter produces and then asking about going through the bypass circuit in the inverter has so many branches that I cannot even try and put text to it.

I will try one way. You have no solar but grid. The timer has use grid u ticked. You set the battery to 40% SOC and when the battery reaches this level but you have loads of up to 12kw switches on this will be fed from grid using the bypass function. Battery will remain at 40%.

Not a Sunsynk user but how I understand it's operation. Users can explain it if wrong. 

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38 minutes ago, TaliaB said:

Current regulator on load side is available called energy controll unit where the load will be limited according to current switching specification of said unit.

SACU05.jpg.8526b1e35fa51ccc8bac256f3d290601.jpg

Below 3 units wired into a db board where the stove hob will switch the under floor heating off when 3 plates are switched on simultaneously.

20230302_101840.thumb.jpg.6c18eee606af80bc68c0207eae1f5947.jpg

That's a great piece of kit, but because of costs most installers don't seem to recommend them to end-users.

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16 minutes ago, Scorp007 said:

Great units of yesteryear. Closer to the Sunsynk. Your can control the load via settings and also do it via a APP and adjust it remotely. 

No problem to still use them to switch off certain loads by then it is a fixed value based on the current of the unit. 

@Moffat Your previous questions around using 8kw that the inverter produces and then asking about going through the bypass circuit in the inverter has so many branches that I cannot even try and put text to it.

I will try one way. You have no solar but grid. The timer has use grid u ticked. You set the battery to 40% SOC and when the battery reaches this level but you have loads of up to 12kw switches on this will be fed from grid using the bypass function. Battery will remain at 40%.

Not a Sunsynk user but how I understand it's operation. Users can explain it if wrong. 

Sunsynk is a great kit with many options and ways to tinker with it. It's also important for end-users to also temper their expectations of solar and be mindful that when days are overcast power generation also isn't so great and batteries are expensive.

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7 hours ago, Moffat said:

Sunsynk is a great kit with many options and ways to tinker with it. It's also important for end-users to also temper their expectations of solar and be mindful that when days are overcast power generation also isn't so great and batteries are expensive.

Very true. We often see that batteries are the 1st thing people jump to instead of perhaps limiting their load on bad PV days/LS. A few remote switches and changing a setting or 2 or adjusting the timer can also achieve a lot. 

I went to a guy a few houses from me a week after he installed his Deye. He did not accept my suggestion to take a longer "try it out" and adjusting settings for a few weeks. He just got more battery power. His main reason was after the 1st 4h LS his batteries cut out. Only 2 people in the house and retired. 

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5 hours ago, Scorp007 said:

Very true. We often see that batteries are the 1st thing people jump to instead of perhaps limiting their load on bad PV days/LS. A few remote switches and changing a setting or 2 or adjusting the timer can also achieve a lot. 

I went to a guy a few houses from me a week after he installed his Deye. He did not accept my suggestion to take a longer "try it out" and adjusting settings for a few weeks. He just got more battery power. His main reason was after the 1st 4h LS his batteries cut out. Only 2 people in the house and retired. 

Maybe get him to join this powerforum, I feel a lot of people are looking for the easy, set and forget-it type of solution. It doesn't exist. Unfortunately also some unscrupulous installers promise the moon when they cannot even deliver anything leaving the dirt and then begin fear-mongering end-users even on the most minute issues such with threats of end-user losing their warranty, fire hazards etc. 

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44 minutes ago, Moffat said:

Maybe get him to join this powerforum, I feel a lot of people are looking for the easy, set and forget-it type of solution. It doesn't exist. Unfortunately also some unscrupulous installers promise the moon when they cannot even deliver anything leaving the dirt and then begin fear-mongering end-users even on the most minute issues such with threats of end-user losing their warranty, fire hazards etc. 

He won't as he thinks he knows everything. Strange to see a guy who asks help and when you give it he as a non electrical guy always knows best. But I have never turned him away when he needs some info or a tip or 2.

I have had some interesting experiences with guys around solar. One very good friend would not see anything wrong with his installers. This even after each of them had fuses melted after each installed a new string. Battery wrongly installed and ended up with no PV on the 2nd day. This guy called in a friend to do some settings on a Deye. His main switch in the DB would switch the grid and 8kW Deye off. No N-E bond. Panels on same  string facing 2 directions and some more.... 

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22 minutes ago, Scorp007 said:

He won't as he thinks he knows everything. Strange to see a guy who asks help and when you give it he as a non electrical guy always knows best. But I have never turned him away when he needs some info or a tip or 2.

I have had some interesting experiences with guys around solar. One very good friend would not see anything wrong with his installers. This even after each of them had fuses melted after each installed a new string. Battery wrongly installed and ended up with no PV on the 2nd day. This guy called in a friend to do some settings on a Deye. His main switch in the DB would switch the grid and 8kW Deye off. No N-E bond. Panels on same  string facing 2 directions and some more.... 

Solar and the renewable energy sector is ever evolving plus ever-changing and new regulations, which feels like the "mouth of a rabbit hole". We all are ever learning and unlearning, some things.

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On 2023/12/15 at 1:07 PM, Moffat said:

Maybe get him to join this powerforum, I feel a lot of people are looking for the easy, set and forget-it type of solution. It doesn't exist. Unfortunately also some unscrupulous installers promise the moon when they cannot even deliver anything leaving the dirt and then begin fear-mongering end-users even on the most minute issues such with threats of end-user losing their warranty, fire hazards etc. 

I agree - set it and forget doesn't exist.  Although I have managed to automate quite a few of my loads etc with HomeAssistant in such a way that my system now pretty much just runs.  This is however not a "user" friendly path.  If you do have a bit of computer savvy it can be done.

I for example have the Google speakers in my home announce a message when the load exceeds 5000w on my 5600w inverter.  I also have a message playing when loadshedding starts and stops - just gets the family to think about what they are switching on during these times.

Edited by Douw G. Gerber
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