January 17, 20242 yr So I got a new pre-paid meter today. The hand-held unit used for loading vouchers absolutely will not work through a socket that is backed up (turns out the old one had an RF connection, which is why I could use it from any socket). OK... so I can go into the garage and load my units or check my balance. But that's 2nd prize, especially on rainy days or if it's dark. So I want to get a single non-backed up outlet inside the house. Now running the cable to a plug seems easy enough. But should there be a circuit breaker in that line? Obviously if there must be, then does the breaker have to be in the DB or can it be in a little box on a wall somewhere?
January 17, 20242 yr A circuit breaker needs to be installed and I would put it in the DB. You would need to have an amendment done to your current COC after this has been completed.
January 17, 20242 yr 1 hour ago, Bobster. said: So I got a new pre-paid meter today. The hand-held unit used for loading vouchers absolutely will not work through a socket that is backed up (turns out the old one had an RF connection, which is why I could use it from any socket). OK... so I can go into the garage and load my units or check my balance. But that's 2nd prize, especially on rainy days or if it's dark. So I want to get a single non-backed up outlet inside the house. Now running the cable to a plug seems easy enough. But should there be a circuit breaker in that line? Obviously if there must be, then does the breaker have to be in the DB or can it be in a little box on a wall somewhere? You can use 16A socket with build in mcb. https://www.livecopper.co.za/products/crabtree-classic-16a-circuit-breaker-16a-socket-slimline-socket
January 17, 20242 yr Author 5 minutes ago, TaliaB said: You can use 16A socket with build in mcb. https://www.livecopper.co.za/products/crabtree-classic-16a-circuit-breaker-16a-socket-slimline-socket Perfect. Thank you
January 17, 20242 yr 47 minutes ago, TaliaB said: You can use 16A socket with build in mcb. https://www.livecopper.co.za/products/crabtree-classic-16a-circuit-breaker-16a-socket-slimline-socket Another version. Preventing chargers to be connected without an adaptor. https://crabtree.co.za/product/classic-single-std-socket-with-double-pole-15a-circuit-breaker/
January 17, 20242 yr But it is still compulsory for the outlet to go through a Eart leakage. To my knowledge.
January 17, 20242 yr Author 43 minutes ago, Vaal said: But it is still compulsory for the outlet to go through a Eart leakage. To my knowledge. That makes sense. And that is the problem here. Backed up circuits have an earth leakage. Non-backed up circuits in the outbuildings (all of them at present) have an earth leakage. But when I put a non-backed up socket in the main property.... oh dear. Though not insurmountable, I guess.
January 18, 20242 yr 13 hours ago, Vaal said: But it is still compulsory for the outlet to go through a Eart leakage. To my knowledge. It is not compulsory if you follow SANS regulations to exclude a specific socket used for a speficic load.
January 18, 20242 yr 15 hours ago, TaliaB said: You can use 16A socket with build in mcb. https://www.livecopper.co.za/products/crabtree-classic-16a-circuit-breaker-16a-socket-slimline-socket In the good old days when some of us had a lot more hair these MCBs were fitted to sockets. The current range was 2-15A IIRC. This is one a a few I still have around.
January 18, 20242 yr 52 minutes ago, Scorp007 said: It is not compulsory if you follow SANS regulations to exclude a specific socket used for a speficic load. Hmm, thats good to know. It sounds a bit like a dangerous situation can be created. Can you put any outlet on it or must it be special?
January 18, 20242 yr 54 minutes ago, Vaal said: Hmm, thats good to know. It sounds a bit like a dangerous situation can be created. Can you put any outlet on it or must it be special? No it is not dangerous if there is no metal part that you as user can touch to get shocked. It is just like the equipment that are double isolated and not having a earth wire. Even their metal parts can never make contact with the supplied power. No need to be a special socket. Think around most medical equipment which is life threatening if an E/L would trip. We should guard against seeing a problem in anything just because of the way life has changed in the last number of years.
January 18, 20242 yr Author 1 hour ago, Scorp007 said: No it is not dangerous if there is no metal part that you as user can touch to get shocked. It is just like the equipment that are double isolated and not having a earth wire. Even their metal parts can never make contact with the supplied power. OK. Thanks all for this discussion and the refinining of the requirement. The device to be used has no metal parts that can be touched by the user unless they start poking around inside. The candidate socket is a metal box with a metal face plate that holds the power switch and the socket. I was going to say it's earthed, but I don't know that for sure. Currently it is protected by the EL for the other sockets inside the house - all of which are backed up. I have non backed-up sockets. These are all in the outbuildings, and all fed from a sub-DB which has it's own earth leakage. Funny thing. In the laundry there are FOUR sockets. Two are the originals. The hand held unit for the meter works with those. There is then a cable, in a channel, from that plug point on the wall to another pair of sockets which are more convenient for the tumble drier and washing machine (which needs to go next to the sink so that it can drain). Now that's one piece of cable (as far as I know) from the original sockets (mounted in the wall) to the slaves (mounted ON the wall). The hand held unit works correctly in the first, does not work in the latter. Odd (to me anyway).
January 18, 20242 yr 2 hours ago, Bobster. said: Funny thing. In the laundry there are FOUR sockets. Two are the originals. The hand held unit for the meter works with those. There is then a cable, in a channel, from that plug point on the wall to another pair of sockets which are more convenient for the tumble drier and washing machine (which needs to go next to the sink so that it can drain). Now that's one piece of cable (as far as I know) from the original sockets (mounted in the wall) to the slaves (mounted ON the wall). The hand held unit works correctly in the first, does not work in the latter. Odd (to me anyway). I especially left some outlets in my lounge not backed up for this exact reason (even though I'm not on prepaid, my meter has a hand-held that I used to monitor my usage when planning for solar; so I wanted to keep that operational - and perhaps I'll also move to prepaid one day). The one thing I've noticed is how sensitive to distance it seems: we have some non-backed-up sockets in our bedrooms (for heaters) but only the lounge (very close to the meter) and one befroom (the bedroom closest to the meter) works with the hand-held unit on the non-backed-up outlets. The non-backed-up outlets in the rooms further away don't work at all. It's weird. I wish they'd just use RF so that we didn't have to play outlet-roulette!
January 18, 20242 yr 9 hours ago, Scorp007 said: No it is not dangerous if there is no metal part that you as user can touch to get shocked. It is just like the equipment that are double isolated and not having a earth wire. Even their metal parts can never make contact with the supplied power. No need to be a special socket. Think around most medical equipment which is life threatening if an E/L would trip. We should guard against seeing a problem in anything just because of the way life has changed in the last number of years. Ok, I understand what you mean but how can you control what device will be used out of that plugbox? With something double insulated, no problem but what if somebody plug his "2 bar heater" or any device which needs to be earthed, in the outlet? Edited January 18, 20242 yr by Vaal
January 18, 20242 yr 30 minutes ago, Vaal said: Ok, I understand what you mean but how can you control what device will be used out of that plugbox? With something double insulated, no problem but what if somebody plug his "2 bar heater" or any device which needs to be earthed, in the outlet? SANS allow you to warn it is not protected by E-L and then specify like only to be used for prepaid power console. To prevent a heater from working you can fit a 2A MCB in the DB feeding that socket. Some things you can't control. If I isolate a circuit and attach a danger card with name and date not to be switched on then it does not mean someone won't switch it on. This would also be ignoring the notice but outside of my control. This the method used where a number of people can switch power on say at a DB.
January 18, 20242 yr 1 hour ago, Vaal said: Ok, I understand what you mean but how can you control what device will be used out of that plugbox? With something double insulated, no problem but what if somebody plug his "2 bar heater" or any device which needs to be earthed, in the outlet? What about if the outlet installed is a 2-pin-only? And change the plug of the meter hand-held to 2-pin to match (if necessary)? This will exclude any device that needs EL?
January 18, 20242 yr 15 minutes ago, JayMardern said: What about if the outlet installed is a 2-pin-only? And change the plug of the meter hand-held to 2-pin to match (if necessary)? This will exclude any device that needs EL? May be @TaliaB can confirm if a shaver socket that is fed via an isolation transformer can also be used. The meter will never overload it.
January 18, 20242 yr 1 hour ago, Scorp007 said: May be @TaliaB can confirm if a shaver socket that is fed via an isolation transformer can also be used. The meter will never overload it. Yes they could be used,shaver sockets is classII the tx type and the current limiting types. They are normally rated for 200ma~500ma. Grabtree(multi voltage 115v and 230v) and Veti manufacture these sockets for around R300.
January 18, 20242 yr That is a very good idea. I'll still stick to my two earth leakages, but there are many ways to "skin a cat".
January 19, 20242 yr Author 14 hours ago, JayMardern said: What about if the outlet installed is a 2-pin-only? And change the plug of the meter hand-held to 2-pin to match (if necessary)? This will exclude any device that needs EL? Next question. Where do I get a 2 pin plug? Or even the new SA standard 3 pin. I can get the sockets easily enough. The plugs are a different matter. OK... a lot of devices that need those plugs come with them on the end of the power lead, but if I want to fit one? And I do. The hand held unit for the new meter comes with an SA standard 3 pin plug. The earth pin is physically present, but not connected. Helpfully, there is no information on the device as to how much current it consumes. But also, how much CAN it be? The power lead is stampled 2.5 250, which I assume to be 2.5 A and 250V. Edited January 19, 20242 yr by Bobster.
January 19, 20242 yr 2 hours ago, Bobster. said: Next question. Where do I get a 2 pin plug? Or even the new SA standard 3 pin. I can get the sockets easily enough. The plugs are a different matter. OK... a lot of devices that need those plugs come with them on the end of the power lead, but if I want to fit one? And I do. The hand held unit for the new meter comes with an SA standard 3 pin plug. The earth pin is physically present, but not connected. Helpfully, there is no information on the device as to how much current it consumes. But also, how much CAN it be? The power lead is stampled 2.5 250, which I assume to be 2.5 A and 250V. Yeah I suggested this because I figured the prepaid comms system doesn't use Earth as, similar to yours, my Earth is conductive on the plug itself (it's not a plastic dummy pin), but on the hand-held, the socket it goes into has a 2-pin figure-8 (C7/C8) connector. (This also means in my case I could just swap my cable from the supplied 3-pin to a standard figure-8 (C7/C8) 2-pin cable since the cable isn't hard-wired), You could pick up a 2-pin plug from Takealot: https://www.takealot.com/2-pin-round-plug/PLID72109866 I ran my handheld unit (an Empire Hexing unit) through my kill-a-watt whilst letting it connect and after 20 minutes it had topped out at just 3.3 watts.
January 19, 20242 yr Author 20 minutes ago, JayMardern said: You could pick up a 2-pin plug from Takealot: https://www.takealot.com/2-pin-round-plug/PLID72109866 Will you take a look at that price!
January 19, 20242 yr 9 minutes ago, Bobster. said: Will you take a look at that price! Geez you're right, a bit of Takealot Tax there, huh! How about an option at 20% of that? Yes please: https://www.creative-cables.co.za/plugs-and-sockets/20364-spina-europea-creative-plug-2-poli-10a.html https://www.stepbuildingsupplies.co.za/products/white-10a-2-pin-male-euro-plug I'd imagine Builders or any electrical store would have stock (at reasonable pricing) as well
January 19, 20242 yr Author 29 minutes ago, JayMardern said: I'd imagine Builders or any electrical store would have stock (at reasonable pricing) as well That's where I've been trying - the Builders and like stores. Maybe I need to try a specialist electrical outlet.
January 19, 20242 yr 12 hours ago, Bobster. said: Next question. Where do I get a 2 pin plug? Or even the new SA standard 3 pin. I can get the sockets easily enough. The plugs are a different matter. OK... a lot of devices that need those plugs come with them on the end of the power lead, but if I want to fit one? And I do. The hand held unit for the new meter comes with an SA standard 3 pin plug. The earth pin is physically present, but not connected. Helpfully, there is no information on the device as to how much current it consumes. But also, how much CAN it be? The power lead is stampled 2.5 250, which I assume to be 2.5 A and 250V. Cables will be stamped based on their rating. They will never be in line with the device on which it is used. Cannot tell you where to find the new ZA standard but have seen them in electrical outlets. May be Google L-R Merlin Web or AC-DC. Edit: New plug top available in white or black from Lite-Glow Randburg. Edited January 19, 20242 yr by Scorp007
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