So I had the first visit from the engineer today. He took lots of photos - including the municipal meter as the serial number of the meter is part of the registration. Wants copies of my COC and municipal account (I have these scanned, just haven't mailed them to him yet). Once he has all the paperwork I will get a letter to sign that appoints Pure Energy as my proxy for the registration process.

Pure Energy don't get involved in tariffs - that is between you and the City. At present they have certified systems with pre-paid meters. They believe this is a loophole in the by-laws and that this will be closed at some time in the future.

If they find shortcomings in the system they give you a list, and when you have all of those rectified they continue the process. The rectification is between you and whoever you appoint (preferably the installer, but they don't insist on it). In my case there are a couple of labelling issues. Notably there is a sticker required on the municipal meter box to say that you have a PV system. They will supply the stickers and add the cost to their invoice. There is one needed on the DB as well.

Once they consider the system up to snuff, they prepare the drawings, take your money and interact with City Power on your behalf. City Power will still conduct an inspection. 

He says that before the December break the whole process, FOR CITY POWER (not for any other utility, and especially not for Eskom) was taking two weeks.

Very interesting, did you initiate this process? If so, how?

Good follow this.

I am an installer, albeit whish I never dabbled in this solar thing haha, but I emailed CoJ mid last year and got a reply Jan sometime with all the documents and some info on the process.

I just wish I knew all this before I got in. I asked a lot and no one knew and now it's knocking and not keen on fighting on who is fitting what invoice. 

I am glad something is happening and some order which can be followed and requirements there of.

Dealing with the Gov is something I am not keen on. 

If the rules are not dumb and it's understood to benefit then it's a good thing. A lot of my clients say they are tired of just paying and to conform it's more money after spending a bunch to have somewhat power continually. 

If the CoJ guys/girls who come help and aid in safe installations then it's a good thing. Seen some real gems.

Also to get a KNOWN safe standard is also good, and safe including the greater national grid.

Anyway let's see how it goes. 

Thanks for sharing !

Ah to add, I have told sole of the clients as a field test about it and they all said let's wait until they come to us.... So stuck in the middle as well as who needs to insist on this SSEG, is it the installer or property owner.

A lot of people are gatvol, so interesting times lay ahead and not the cool fun interesting things 

14 minutes ago, Dylboy said:

Good follow this.

I am an installer, albeit whish I never dabbled in this solar thing haha, but I emailed CoJ mid last year and got a reply Jan sometime with all the documents and some info on the process.

 

Did they provide anything worth sharing?

Yes they did, I will try see how to attach the documents on here.

 

It's a bit of a polava to say the least of all what has to be done. 

I read while one holiday with many a beer had but will try attach the documents 

This came with the email :

 

Please kindly note that if you have installed a solar system or planning to, you have to declare it with us by firstly filling in the electricity of supply form in order to receive a notification number. We are not authorized to create a notification number for our customers ,you are therefore required to walk in CoJ customer service center, should you be walking on behalf of the property owner the following will be needed:

 

 

 

1. Fill in the electricity supply form as attached 

 

2. Authorization letter indicating you are representing your client

 

3. Certified ID copy of yourself and your client 

 

 

 

Upon completion and receiving of the notification number, you will therefore be required to fill in the attached forms and advice when your system is ready for city power to do a site visit and check its compliance.

 

 

 

Should you have any more queries, feel free to contact us.

Application for Electricity supply.pdf APPLICATION FOR INVERTER BASED GRID TIED PHOTOVOLTAIC INSTALLATION FORM.pdf CP_TSGUID__012_GUIDELINES FOR GENERAL PHOTHOVOLTAIC INSTALLATIONS.pdf PHOTOVOLTAIC INSTALLATION COMMISSIONING REPORT FORM.pdf

I do believe it is only if you have panels on the roof, if it's a backup system then no need, however news articles are stating it's causing grief when they all start charging when power returns so that a different kettle of fish at the moment 

Edited January 23, 20241 yr by Dylboy

11 minutes ago, Dylboy said:

This came with the email :

 

Please kindly note that if you have installed a solar system or planning to, you have to declare it with us by firstly filling in the electricity of supply form in order to receive a notification number. We are not authorized to create a notification number for our customers ,you are therefore required to walk in CoJ customer service center, should you be walking on behalf of the property owner the following will be needed:

 

 

 

1. Fill in the electricity supply form as attached 

 

2. Authorization letter indicating you are representing your client

 

3. Certified ID copy of yourself and your client 

 

 

 

Upon completion and receiving of the notification number, you will therefore be required to fill in the attached forms and advice when your system is ready for city power to do a site visit and check its compliance.

 

 

 

Should you have any more queries, feel free to contact us.

Application for Electricity supply.pdf 381.44 kB · 0 downloads APPLICATION FOR INVERTER BASED GRID TIED PHOTOVOLTAIC INSTALLATION FORM.pdf 609.75 kB · 0 downloads CP_TSGUID__012_GUIDELINES FOR GENERAL PHOTHOVOLTAIC INSTALLATIONS.pdf 595.44 kB · 0 downloads PHOTOVOLTAIC INSTALLATION COMMISSIONING REPORT FORM.pdf 126.9 kB · 0 downloads

Thanks for the share! CoJ must've missed the memo on how people don't like filling in hundreds of pages of forms - especially if it's so that they can be ripped off in selling back electricity at a third the price they pay for it! ( I guess this is also why there's a market for third parties to handle the process - which itself is a sign that the process is too complicated).

I do also feel like there'd be a much stronger consumer push if the feed-in rates were a bit better.

Also on that not everyone, if anyone, wants to feed back at all ! Their approach and all this paper work and having to physically walk in to a department is as far as I can tell to feed back to the grid.

Most of not all will always be a net user. 

 

As long as it does not feed back in power failure it should be a good to go ! 

 

Look I do know, well I know a little bit and not confirmed, that the transformers and their tappings struggle when there is no demand, hence why grid voltage in the day is higher as there is less volt drop.

But that is for someone way smarter than me and in the know the chime in on. 

 

Anyway I feel if you say you not feeding back then leave it alone, a d heck if you are by mistake then be happy that you helping the neighbour and Eskom can use that for pumped storage.

 

Again everyone this is my thoughts and not facts and my opinion.:)

On 2024/01/20 at 3:27 PM, Carl Anthony said:

Very interesting, did you initiate this process? If so, how?

I got an email from the guys who did my installation, saying that they were increasingly running into this requirement (in various cities) and so they had put together a flat fee deal with another company that has the engineering resources and the know-how to work with the municipality.

So I thought about it a short while, then mailed them back to say I was interested.

2 hours ago, Dylboy said:

Also on that not everyone, if anyone, wants to feed back at all ! Their approach and all this paper work and having to physically walk in to a department is as far as I can tell to feed back to the grid.

Most of not all will always be a net user. 

This is one of the killers when it comes to reselling - that you must be a net consumer of electricity. Over 4.5 years now, including spells of bad weather, I am averaging about 2.4 kWh per day from the grid. Call it 72 a month. So I can get paid for 71 a month. It's not worth my while to work my system harder for the R40 odd credit. 

Also I'm on pre-paid at the moment. If I switch to the reseller's tariff then there are fixed fees every month. So my choice would be to not resell and not to go onto that tariff. My understanding is that currently you can have the combination of PV and pre-paid, but the City is having a good think about this. However right now Council is barely functional, so we don't know how long this option will remain. 

So I have questions. Because to switch to the re-seller's tariff you must have a two way meter. In some cases this may mean a whole new meter. In others it may mean a change in the meter's firmware. It seems to me that if you have to pay for (at least) a reconfiguration of your meter then moving to reseller's tariff must be voluntary.

BUT then the City are entitled to not give you any credit for any thing you send back their way (you're not a reseller). I suspect that most meters can't tell power taken FROM the grid from power sent TO the grid, and so if you feed back it is going to advance your meter (unless you have an old electro-mechanical meter) and so you will pay. So it's up to you to see that you really don't feed back - lack of intent is not enough. Or pay up and don't complain.

 

2 hours ago, Dylboy said:

 

As long as it does not feed back in power failure it should be a good to go ! 

 

Look I do know, well I know a little bit and not confirmed, that the transformers and their tappings struggle when there is no demand, hence why grid voltage in the day is higher as there is less volt drop.

But that is for someone way smarter than me and in the know the chime in on. 

 

Anyway I feel if you say you not feeding back then leave it alone, a d heck if you are by mistake then be happy that you helping the neighbour and Eskom can use that for pumped storage.

I'm not sure doing nothing is a good option. It seems to me that if you start generating electricity then the City is going to notice. Because your meter will start showing a significant drop off and/or you stop buying vouchers for pre-paid. We might as well wave a big red flag and say "come and see what I have". They are going to notice, and it's naive to think they will just do nothing. 

I do think, as I said above, there should be an option to simply not sell back and thus your tariff doesn't change. Sure you use less electricity, but that still helps them. It's better by far that this is by agreement. If I get to that stage I will be very happy. (Which is why I'm posting here - to let y'all know what I had to do and what the outcome is).

Noting that weather hasn't been great in Johannesburg the last week and a half, so in most cases we're not really off the grid and we are still importing some electricity into our homes. Going off grid might seem like a good idea, but it's expensive to do and would not be plain sailing. So we still need a connection to City Power. 

2 hours ago, Dylboy said:

I do believe it is only if you have panels on the roof, if it's a backup system then no need, however news articles are stating it's causing grief when they all start charging when power returns so that a different kettle of fish at the moment 

The concern with battery and inverter systems is that when the power is restored, these systems all start charging the battery, which can mean that the grid is servicing rather more load than anticipated. Plus because the systems start charging straight away this feeds into the problem of overloads on restoration, just as leaving your geyser or stove on does. 

This was probably not a problem with the old lead/acid systems because they don't charge at a very high rate. But if you've got a Sunsynk inverter with a 1C battery, then that could be demanding kilowatts over and above what your house needs to run. 

A different issue really from having PV, but still an issue.

Edited January 23, 20241 yr by Bobster.

Yeah agreed on all.

My other thought I had now is they didn't blink an eye when we all went to LED lights, they even came around to put them in, at least low watts compared to halogen.

So now the whole house uses less due to panels and the moaning and it's a big thing. 

My opinion is they must restructure to make more power at night vs day. Look don't know if it's possible and k am nieve on that. Something like excess power into battery banks or pumped storage etc.

But yes I probably should tell all the old clients that the debt collector has come and we must do the right thing.

At the end of the day I was tasked to size and install. 

 

As for the backup solutions with no power, I am not sure how they can control that, smarter inverters we can set the reconnect time but again some homes can only afford a system that makes the stage 6 and then having your charge time in half means not a full battery for the next long outage.

1 hour ago, Bobster. said:

I got an email from the guys who did my installation, saying that they were increasingly running into this requirement (in various cities) and so they had put together a flat fee deal with another company that has the engineering resources and the know-how to work with the municipality.

So I thought about it a short while, then mailed them back to say I was interested.

If possible can you message me there details, I am based in JHB, Bryanston area. Most of my clients are and at the end of the day when the goal posts move or out of the blue become visible I may not have the resources to deal nor the contacts to do it in a timely manor.

 

I see it becoming like getting your driver's renewed, you either know someone or you sit in a que

4 minutes ago, Dylboy said:

My other thought I had now is they didn't blink an eye when we all went to LED lights, they even came around to put them in, at least low watts compared to halogen.

So now the whole house uses less due to panels and the moaning and it's a big thing. 

Your first sentence makes the valid point that it's not just about power and how much they can bill you. I remember getting a rebate against a solar geyser at my previous house. And they were giving out CFLs then. So they have been concerned about load and getting that down.

PV systems that can feed back are a horse of a different feather. There are a lot of installers participating on this forum, and I'm sure they all do a conscientious job. But I also know folks who have gone to Builders Warehouse and similar establishments, bought some stuff, spent a couple of afternoons clambering around on the roof and doing stuff to their DB and they now say they are "off grid" and who knows what they have and how it's connected.

I think that when we can feed power back - even if we are saving them the bother of having to supply us - then they are entitled to be picky about how everything is connected to their grid. Alternatively if you want to go the DIY route and then go off grid and do it properly by asking them to please come and take their meter and their cables away then that's your right and they no longer have any obligation to you nor need concern themselves about your hardware.

 

3 minutes ago, Dylboy said:

If possible can you message me there details, I am based in JHB, Bryanston area. Most of my clients are and at the end of the day when the goal posts move or out of the blue become visible I may not have the resources to deal nor the contacts to do it in a timely manor.

 

I see it becoming like getting your driver's renewed, you either know someone or you sit in a que

Exactly. I've signed a document that allows them to act as a proxy for me, and now they do all the filling in of forms, all the drawings, all the standing in line - or at least I don't have to do those things. I'll DM you contact details. I can post those here, of course, but I don't want to do that without asking them first.

What they don't do:

• involve themselves in any discussions about billing
• involve themselves in any discussions about switching tariffs
• bring the system up to scratch if they judge it to be non-compliant with the standards. They give you a list of issues, and then you have to get somebody to make the necessary changes at your cost. (I have to get two labels - one for the DB, one for the municipal meter box). 

OK. So I just signed off on the form that will go to the City. I will try to get a redacted version of the form up here but here (in random order) are some details

• The application includes the GPS co-ordinates of the site
• for business/industrial applications they require a site plan that shows locations of the equipment and the connection to the grid
• You are required to select one of four modes
  1) Energy from PV to be used solely within a consumer’s electricity network and no excess power to be exported to City Power’s Electricity distribution network at any time.
  2) Energy from PV to be used within a consumer’s electricity network and excess power to be exported to City Power’s Electricity distribution network
  3) Energy from PV to be used solely for exporting to City Power’s Electricity distribution network
  4) Any of the above with Energy Storage
• They want the C rating and capacity of your battery
• They want details of your panels. Maker. Number. Output per panel. Type (poly or mono). Output voltage. String output.
• There is a code that describes the earthing arrangements. In my case this is "TN-C-S"
• Average monthly consumption winter and summer
• How much you expect to export on week days, Saturdays, Sundays (mine are all zero)
• A test certificate for the inverter model in use is required
• A "single line diagram" (I haven't seen this) is required
• They want name, address, contact details of the installer.
   

That's not everything. As I said, I will try to post a redacted form, though probably this will only be on the weekend.

Honestly this seems more hassle than anything else

1 hour ago, madness_za said:

Honestly this seems more hassle than anything else

The reason I'm paying is so that somebody else goes through all the hassle. You'd have to pay something anyway, because a suitably qualified person needs to sign off on various aspects of the system and provide the drawings. If you can do all that yourself, then you're good to go - but you still have to go stand in lines at City Power premises. 

That's if you decide you want to get your system registered. If you don't want to then, of course, it's just a waste of time and money

I've said this before: There is a LOT of rooftop PV now. When my system was installed 4.5 years ago it was a novelty, there were very few about where I live. Now there is lots of it. Enough that Eskom and City Power can see it making a difference. And in most cases the property is still connected to the grid. It seems quite reasonable to me that City Power should want to know what is connected to their grid and what it's doing - and I don't mean only illegal connections.

If I go all the way off grid. Sever that connection. Go to City Power's offices and tell them to take their meter and their connection away, at that point they have no legitimate interest. Until then, I think they do. 

Some may not agree with that. I understand that. This is actually quite a touchy subject. I post the steps that I take so that everybody can get a better idea of what is involved and make their own decisions. Or just decide that a bobster and his money are easily parted 🙂 

So I just got a call from the engineer who is managing my registration. Next steps are
1) He is submitting my paperwork today
2) He will be coming here probably Friday to affix the warning labels that are required (there are two. One of these goes on the municipal meter box)
3) Then City Power will contact him (because he is acting as my proxy) to make an appointment for my site visit. The City won't charge me for this.
4) The site visit will be concerned with the solar installation. They are not going to go poking around in the DB. There will be some tests.
5) If City Power are satisified they will give me a registration certificate and they will RECCOMEND that I switch back to the post-paid tariff. This is not mandatory (at this time). They do this because there are cases where pre-paid meters misbehave and people complain about getting billed too much. Apparently this does not happen when the meter is configured for post-paid billing.

This is all for City Power. But I would think that if you have somebody competent and professional advising you, they will walk you through the process that applies wherever you are.

Edited February 1, 20241 yr by Bobster.

I asked. The guy is happy for me to post his name and number on forums.
Blessing Madyangove
063 720 5325

The company is Pure Energy Solutions
Email: [email protected]

There is no guarantee of costs. He would need to start with a site visit and understand what he is dealing with.

Edited February 1, 20241 yr by Bobster.

Its interesting following these posts from here in Dbn because at the moment we dont have to register our systems with the municipality.

That will change as they are so far behind here on all fronts.If they want this whole song and dance as discussed above then I shall disconnect from the grid.

I suspect with revenues dropping off dramatically that a special tariff for solar owners will come and that would also make me go off grid which i can do already.

1 hour ago, Nicholas Strachan said:

Its interesting following these posts from here in Dbn because at the moment we dont have to register our systems with the municipality.

That will change as they are so far behind here on all fronts.If they want this whole song and dance as discussed above then I shall disconnect from the grid.

I suspect with revenues dropping off dramatically that a special tariff for solar owners will come and that would also make me go off grid which i can do already.

One of the problems in Jhb is that there is a registration process, and they do want systems registered, but they have been very bad at spreading the word. COCT made a huge hooha about it, so even if you think it's an outrageous policy at least you know it's policy.

32 minutes ago, Bobster. said:

One of the problems in Jhb is that there is a registration process, and they do want systems registered, but they have been very bad at spreading the word. COCT made a huge hooha about it, so even if you think it's an outrageous policy at least you know it's policy.

Exactly. As long as you know what you are dealing with its fine.Ethekweni here Dbn are such a shambles.