New to the forum

[Toxxyc]

Good morning, everyone.  I'm new here, and I'm hoping to mine a bit of the knowledge on here.

My story is simple.  I currently stay in a small town in a house with a small backup solar setup.  I bought the house with 2 x 450W panels, a Mecer 2.4kW inverter and 2 x 12V100AH gel batteries installed.  I hated the setup from the start as it's installed in the living room and the inverter isn't particularly quiet, but alas, I needed the backup in case of loadshedding (I work from home).

Eventually the gel batteries couldn't keep up with Stage 6 and so on load shedding, not getting enough time to charge to float between uses, and they gave up the ghost.  I DIY-replaced the two gel batteries with a Sunmagic 25.6V 150AH LiFePO4 battery.  The new lithium battery allowed the inverter to actually use it for what it was made for, and I set it to use the absolute minimum power from the battery, and charge via solar.  It's been working well-ish.

Anyway, time passed and we viewed a smallholding outside of town, put in a bit of a lowball offer (based on the work the place needs) and it got accepted.  So now we're moving.  However, the transformer costs on the smallholding is simply outrageous, so I'm going to take the place off grid.  It's not a big place and we don't use a lot of electricity (we work smart, using around 20kW a day, max 30kW a day when it's really cold and we run some heaters around the place.  Stovetop is gas, everything is LED and energy efficient, but the geyser is still electric.  We're not going to change that right now, it's a future thing.

So, what I want to do is simply not register the Eskom pole to my name when I buy the place, and they'll then cut the house off.  I then want to install a solar system that'll run the house.  The house has plenty of roof space (around 450 square meters), the DB is in the garage (so I can put everything in there, under roof, outside the house), and we're good to go.

However, the finances are a worry.  I need to finance the whole shebang as all cash we have is going into security on the smallholding.  So I searched around and found Solar.co.za and I'm wondering if they're legit, how it works, etc.  They have a rent-to-own system that's essentially financing the whole thing on their side, but I can't find much about them online, except for mixed reviews on HelloPeter.

So, here I am.  Can anyone recommend me a rent-to-own solar company that'll do what I need at around R3k per month?  From the solar.co.za guys I can get 16 x 455W panels, 2 x 5kW LuxPower inverters, and 3 x HinaESS 5.14kW batteries for ~R2,900 per month.  That's perfectly in my budget, and if I install a generator I have alongside that, I should be fine even on rainy days, right?

I hope to learn a lot, and expect a TON of questions from me!

[TheMac]

@Toxxyc  Welcome to the forum

[Bobster.]

2 hours ago, Toxxyc said:

So, what I want to do is simply not register the Eskom pole to my name when I buy the place, and they'll then cut the house off.

When you sell the house, you'll have to specify that there is no Eskom supply. Advice that estate agents give clients in suburban areas is to NOT go off-grid, even if you can and even if you have a mighty urge to tell Eskom what they can do with their supply. The estate agents think that the property without a grid connection will be harder to sell and you will have to drop your price because the purchaser is going to have go through all the pain, paperwork and payment for a grid connection. 

There's also the question of whether you CAN go off grid or not. You need quite a lot of equipment to produce 30kWh in a day. And remember that there will days when the sun doesn't shine on you. Sometimes we need that grid connection to fall back on.

You don't say what area you're in. There are some installers who offer rent-to-buy solutions, but only in specific areas.

Another option maybe to include the PV system in the bond.
 

[Toxxyc]

PV in the bond - I didn't think of that.

The new house is in Bela Bela.  Well, just outside Bela Bela.  30kWh would be worst case scenario, I don't think we've used that much in a long time.  It's usually between 15 and 20kWh per day, and that I think is doable.

Regarding going off grid, the reason is because just having the transformer connected to the house, the service and network fee is R117,22 per day.  That translates to R3 633,82 per month, which is almost double the amount that I'm spending on electricity currently, and that's without using a single Watt.  I don't intend on selling that property, hopefully ever, so it's our "settling down" place.

Keep in mind that the transformer remains in place, and I can just reconnect it if I wish.  I just have to register an account with Eskom, and it's connected again.  Selling should also not be an issue, since I sell it with the solar, which can be extended.  I'm not sure if my logic is flawed, but that's my idea, anyway.  I work from home, and during the day the house uses very little electricity (currently my average float in my house is under 400W).  For the days there is no sunlight, the generator will be used just to get us through.  I know it's extra money, but it's not R3,600 per month extra money.

[TaliaB]

3 hours ago, Toxxyc said:

So, here I am.  Can anyone recommend me a rent-to-own solar company that'll do what I need at around R3k per month?  From the solar.co.za guys I can get 16 x 455W panels, 2 x 5kW LuxPower inverters, and 3 x HinaESS 5.14kW batteries for ~R2,900 per month.  That's perfectly in my budget, and if I install a generator I have alongside that, I should be fine even on rainy days, right?

First of all welcome to the forum.

My personal opinion on going with rent to own option comes with risks if you look at the current solar industry climate. Since the miraculous disappearance of load shedding many solar companies including rental companies are taking strain to keep head above water. There are many solar companies that has applied for voluntary liquadation and should your solar system be part of the company assets they could remove the system should you not be able to come up with the capital. I would much rather try to own the system via a bank loan or as @Bobster.suggested through your bond repayments. 

The above suggested system falls in the mid range of quality and storage capacity. Off grid is quite a diffrent ball game and i would not settle for less that 20kwh battery storage and 8kwp solar backup. Redundancy is the operative word when it comes to off grid systems and needs careful planning and load considerations.

[Toxxyc]

I'm more than happy to do the careful load considerations, to be honest, as well as the planning.  I've got family on an off-grid farm who's running a 4kW Victron inverter (but it can run a bit higher apparently), with 10kW storage and 5kW's panels on the roof (10 x 500W).  They manage with careful planning, BUT their geysers are gas.

My plan is to go more than double that, so 2 x 5kW inverters, with 15kWh storage, perhaps even 20kWh, and with around 7.3kW's panels.  It should be fine here in the bushveld, we rarely have overcast weather that's blocking sunlight that much for extended periods.  And if we do, there's a generator.  Would that not be enough?

[TaliaB]

14 minutes ago, Toxxyc said:

I'm more than happy to do the careful load considerations, to be honest, as well as the planning.  I've got family on an off-grid farm who's running a 4kW Victron inverter (but it can run a bit higher apparently), with 10kW storage and 5kW's panels on the roof (10 x 500W).  They manage with careful planning, BUT their geysers are gas.

My plan is to go more than double that, so 2 x 5kW inverters, with 15kWh storage, perhaps even 20kWh, and with around 7.3kW's panels.  It should be fine here in the bushveld, we rarely have overcast weather that's blocking sunlight that much for extended periods.  And if we do, there's a generator.  Would that not be enough?

By all means i am not discouraging you to go the off grid route as it is done and to be frank i myself have installed a few off grid systems where clients are content. Your generator will be your last line of defence in case of emergencies. Like i said i would for peace of mind rather own the system than rent to own at this stage. 

[JacoG]

Toxxyc, my father has a farm not farm from you, he is currently running 8Kw inverter with 30 * 335w Panels (facing west and east), he has 3 * 5.1kw batteries. The system has been live for 3 years and he is very close to paying back the investment with the savings he has achieved by disconnecting Eskom (the farm had quite a big transformer installed)

Some changes he has made so far:

Gas geyser which he feeds inline with a Solar Geyser. Replace Oven with Gas hob and gas oven and he also bought a decent Generator for the cloudy weeks which does come every now and then.

There are several Fridges and Freezers which are on timers to switch off at night.

[Toxxyc]

I completely agree.  It's the goal, for sure, the budget for now is just going to take some strain.

See, the property was in the market for a market-related price.  However, upon inspection, I noticed that the property has NO security, as in, none, no fences, no gates, no burglar bars or security gates on the doors, etc. etc.  To boot, the swimming pool has a leak.

Now, the market related price of the property was way, WAY out of our budget, but we went and viewed anyway.  We ended up making an offer of what I think the property should be sold at, and then a bit less, because it'll be effort.  Unexpectedly, the slight lowball offer got accepted.

So now I have some funds available to spend, but it HAS to go toward security first.  Doing security means I can stay there with my wife and kids and not worry about our lives every single second of the day.  Unfortunately, it's also quite expensive, so the cash for a solar system is lacking, severely.  This is why I want to finance, or rent-to-own.  The monthly instalment on one of those systems are good enough that I can still survive every month, and take the smallholding off-grid.

This took me on a wild goose chase of suppliers and systems and whatnot.  There's so many, it's impossible to keep track.  You have GoSolr, who's been in the business for a long time, but their fees are too high and simply not worth it.  I looked at them previously, and with them, after 7 years, you can opt to have the system removed, or you can purchase it, so it's not yours yet.  At that point, they sell the system to you at almost full price, so it's a very expensive endeavour.

Then you have places like Alumo, Versofy, Solarite, <insert company name here>, who all do the same.  They also offer purely rentals.  A rental makes NO sense to me, as I plan on staying there for a long time, and I want to own the system (free electricity, yay).

Then I found solar.co.za or Solar Advice as I see they are more well known.  Plenty of good reviews, and their prices are almost too good to be true.  But, the domain's been in existence since 2003, so they look legit, and seem to have been around for a while.

I guess if the company does tank and the bank wants to come collect the system, I can just buy it out using a solar loan at that stage, no?

[Bobster.]

14 minutes ago, JacoG said:

Gas geyser which he feeds inline with a Solar Geyser. Replace Oven with Gas hob and gas oven

And that takes the two biggest loads in most homes out of the equation.

Another option is to use a heatpump for water heating. This will still use electricity, but less, so, again, you reduce your loads. 

Downside: Will need maintenance and you should bank on 10 to 12 years life.

[Toxxyc]

13 minutes ago, JacoG said:

Toxxyc, my father has a farm not farm from you, he is currently running 8Kw inverter with 30 * 335w Panels (facing west and east), he has 3 * 5.1kw batteries. The system has been live for 3 years and he is very close to paying back the investment with the savings he has achieved by disconnecting Eskom (the farm had quite a big transformer installed)

Some changes he has made so far:

Gas geyser which he feeds inline with a Solar Geyser. Replace Oven with Gas hob and gas oven and he also bought a decent Generator for the cloudy weeks which does come every now and then.

There are several Fridges and Freezers which are on timers to switch off at night.

Yeah we already have a very nice gas stove, and we RARELY use the oven.  If we do, it'll be with planning involved, it's never a "spur of the moment" thing.  We also have an air fryer, which uses a lot less energy, since the oven we have is quite large.
The thing I want to not do is "pay it back" on the Eskom pole, since I don't want the Eskom pole to begin with.  I've seen the people there use power, and I've seen the bill, and it makes my eyes water.  It's nice to know system can and do work, and I'm not even on a farm.  I'm just on a smallholding.  It's not even 5ha in size, and there's nothing on there using power, except the house.

I'm also already lining up for a 10kW (could be 8kW, I can't remember the numbers now) generator that'll be installed alongside the solar.  It'll be for peace of mind, and I'll run it once every while just to make sure it still starts and runs and all that.

I actually can't wait.  An off-grid homestead has been our dream for a long, long time.

[Toxxyc]

Just now, Bobster. said:

And that takes the two biggest loads in most homes out of the equation.

Another option is to use a heatpump for water heating. This will still use electricity, but less, so, again, you reduce your loads. 

Downside: Will need maintenance and you should bank on 10 to 12 years life.

We still use a regular electric geyser, but I can honestly say it's not a lot.  It's switched on for around 90 minutes a day, and that's it.  In winter it goes all the way up to those 90 minutes, but in summer we sometimes don't switch it on at all.  The residual heat from a day or two back's heating is enough to get us all through the cleaning process, all nice and fine.  Specially here, the summer does not warrant a warm shower or bath, and that's when we have a lack of sunlight as well.  Winter months are sunny and shining.

[Bobster.]

1 minute ago, Toxxyc said:

We still use a regular electric geyser, but I can honestly say it's not a lot.  It's switched on for around 90 minutes a day, and that's it.  In winter it goes all the way up to those 90 minutes, but in summer we sometimes don't switch it on at all.  The residual heat from a day or two back's heating is enough to get us all through the cleaning process, all nice and fine.  Specially here, the summer does not warrant a warm shower or bath, and that's when we have a lack of sunlight as well.  Winter months are sunny and shining.

OK. So if it's a 3kW element in the geyser then for those 90 minutes it will user 3kW. The point is that all inverters have a limit. At my home you can very easily trip the system (assuming you find that amusing) by turning on the dishwasher, the microwave and the air fryer whilst the heatpump is running. The total loads (even though some do not last that long) is over the limit of my inverter and so the system trips.

So we need to look at total kWh per day, which you do, and the possible momentary peak.

[Kalahari Meerkat]

@Toxxyc, here we are off the Eksdom train of unreasonable rates... and thus 100% off grid...

17 X 280W JA Solar panels, ground mounted on poles forming a some TP's and angle iron mounted on the side of the poles, giving us 9 panels (should have been 10) facing north at around 55 to 60 degrees off the vertical, I'd say and another 8 panels mounted also on wood & angle iron, but on a north-south pivot, meaning, in the morning I've got them facing east at 45deg off the vertical and by now, mid-day, laying flat and by 14:00 to 14:30, I'll swivel them facing west  at 45deg off the vertical.

Inverter is currently still a single 5kW Sunsynk with an 8kW BSL battery (way too small) and 2 X 15kW EVE 304Ah based batteries with a JK 150A BMS for each of the 15kW 16cell batteries. We generate this time of year, around 30kW per day and consume around 24 to 25, sometimes a bit more, but basically we're covered.

So effective 4.76kWp solar into 5kW inverter with 38kW battery capacity. I am going to add more panels, change the inverter to 9kW effective Victron and eventually probably add another 30kW battery capacity, but at the moment, we don't need it, only if we have a few cloudy days, which don't occur too often in this neck of the woods, do we need to be a bit careful on the consumption end. We don't have an electric HWC, but purely one with 12 evacuated glass tubes, in summer its a problem, I need to make an afdakkie for the damn thing, since the water can get close to boiling, I reckon. We do cook with gas, run a 500W or 750W pump to pump water from the canal, quite often for 6 hours a day or so, the only time the inverter has ever been tripped is by my other half using a broken (shorted) extension lead, else our peak usually doesn't make it beyond 4kW draw, of course one manages things, dishwasher on, wait for its heating cycles to finish before using the ketlle or microwave or the induction plate.

I'll attach a screenshot of yesterday's energy usage/production, note the batteries did not get 100% full, since we had a cloudy day over the weekend and some clouds during early morning yesterday and again this morning, but the batteries were probably close to 95% full yesterday evening.

Either way, we've been off Eksdom's poverty train of shame now since mid 2020 and, I'm guessing that by mid next year we would have paid for all the gear, relative to throwing money at that monopoly operator.

I'm also attaching PV1 and PV2 power production and Inverter power for yesterday.

It certainly is doable to be off grid and live normally, the only thing is to keep in mind what is running, before switching on heavy consumers... here a chest freezer and 3 fridge/freezers keep the consumption high overnight, although, once temperatures drop some, they do behave a bit better.

[HendrikBigChief]

4 minutes ago, Kalahari Meerkat said:

@Toxxyc, here we are off the Eksdom train of unreasonable rates... and thus 100% off grid...

17 X 280W JA Solar panels, ground mounted on poles forming a some TP's and angle iron mounted on the side of the poles, giving us 9 panels (should have been 10) facing north at around 55 to 60 degrees off the vertical, I'd say and another 8 panels mounted also on wood & angle iron, but on a north-south pivot, meaning, in the morning I've got them facing east at 45deg off the vertical and by now, mid-day, laying flat and by 14:00 to 14:30, I'll swivel them facing west  at 45deg off the vertical.

Inverter is currently still a single 5kW Sunsynk with an 8kW BSL battery (way too small) and 2 X 15kW EVE 304Ah based batteries with a JK 150A BMS for each of the 15kW 16cell batteries. We generate this time of year, around 30kW per day and consume around 24 to 25, sometimes a bit more, but basically we're covered.

So effective 4.76kWp solar into 5kW inverter with 38kW battery capacity. I am going to add more panels, change the inverter to 9kW effective Victron and eventually probably add another 30kW battery capacity, but at the moment, we don't need it, only if we have a few cloudy days, which don't occur too often in this neck of the woods, do we need to be a bit careful on the consumption end. We don't have an electric HWC, but purely one with 12 evacuated glass tubes, in summer its a problem, I need to make an afdakkie for the damn thing, since the water can get close to boiling, I reckon. We do cook with gas, run a 500W or 750W pump to pump water from the canal, quite often for 6 hours a day or so, the only time the inverter has ever been tripped is by my other half using a broken (shorted) extension lead, else our peak usually doesn't make it beyond 4kW draw, of course one manages things, dishwasher on, wait for its heating cycles to finish before using the ketlle or microwave or the induction plate.

I'll attach a screenshot of yesterday's energy usage/production, note the batteries did not get 100% full, since we had a cloudy day over the weekend and some clouds during early morning yesterday and again this morning, but the batteries were probably close to 95% full yesterday evening.

Either way, we've been off Eksdom's poverty train of shame now since mid 2020 and, I'm guessing that by mid next year we would have paid for all the gear, relative to throwing money at that monopoly operator.

I'm also attaching PV1 and PV2 power production and Inverter power for yesterday.

It certainly is doable to be off grid and live normally, the only thing is to keep in mind what is running, before switching on heavy consumers... here a chest freezer and 3 fridge/freezers keep the consumption high overnight, although, once temperatures drop some, they do behave a bit better.

Your base load is very high, looks like 750W constantly, my house uses 80W during the night.

[Kalahari Meerkat]

24 minutes ago, HendrikBigChief said:

Your base load is very high, looks like 750W constantly, my house uses 80W during the night.

Yes and I don't mind, whats your daily peak temperatures right now, for instance...here, right now, 32degC in the shade and yesterdays peak around 36.5degC in the shade... refer to refrigeration mentioned above... in summer our night average will be around the 1kW constant mark...., since our daytime temperatures will peak above 40degC every day, just about and night time can remain above 30degC on the minimum, can't compare Slaapstad with the Kalahari....

[Toxxyc]

Our day temp today is around 30'C.  We've had 38'C earlier in the week already, but it's uncommon for this time of year.  In high summer, in other words, January, we can go to the middle 40s, but it's also not too common.

 

Our base load at the home here is around 130W, from what the inverter says.  That means the fridge and freezer, as well as nightlights, phone chargers, electric fence, etc. running, so that's nice and low.

[Scorp007]

1 hour ago, HendrikBigChief said:

Your base load is very high, looks like 750W constantly, my house uses 80W during the night.

You doing great. You must have modern fridges. Mine runs around 300W.

[HendrikBigChief]

6 minutes ago, Scorp007 said:

You doing great. You must have modern fridges. Mine runs around 300W.

You are right. My fridge is around a year old, uses 30W when actively running.

[Toxxyc]

OK guys, next question.

I'm worried about installing a 1 x 8kW inverter as the only option.  If the inverter pops, the whole house is without power.  The other option is therefore 2 x 5kW LuxPower inverters, instead of the 1 x 8kW Deye.

The big problem is the LuxPowers only come with a 2 year warranty, whereas the Deye has 10 years there.  What would be the best option here?

[HendrikBigChief]

12 minutes ago, Toxxyc said:

OK guys, next question.

I'm worried about installing a 1 x 8kW inverter as the only option.  If the inverter pops, the whole house is without power.  The other option is therefore 2 x 5kW LuxPower inverters, instead of the 1 x 8kW Deye.

The big problem is the LuxPowers only come with a 2 year warranty, whereas the Deye has 10 years there.  What would be the best option here?

I know from your initial post you are on a smallholding and you want to be off grid, however, having the grid as a backup is always useful. You can simply install a changeover switch that supplies your house with either the inverter or grid, that way if the inverter pops you can simply use the grid until the new inverter arrives. One quality inverter is better than two cheaper inverters in my opinion.

[Toxxyc]

1 minute ago, HendrikBigChief said:

I know from your initial post you are on a smallholding and you want to be off grid, however, having the grid as a backup is always useful. You can simply install a changeover switch that supplies your house with either the inverter or grid, that way if the inverter pops you can simply use the grid until the new inverter arrives. One quality inverter is better than two cheaper inverters in my opinion.

Thanks.  The bigger one would be a Deye, and the two smaller ones would be LuxPowers.  This is the choice I have to make.

Regarding keeping the grid connected - I can't do that.  The smallholding is powered by Eskom direct, which incurs fees.  As I have it, those fees are payable, if you use their electricity or not, and they are at LandRate 1:

Network capacity charge @ R64.03

Service charge @ R53.19

For a total of R117.22 per day, just to keep it connected.  Over 31 days in a month, that's R3 633.83 per month.  Unless I'm mistaken, that's payable even if you don't use the grid at all, with the mains switched off.  For that money I'd rather run a generator.  R3 600 is a tidy amount of diesel to burn through.

[HendrikBigChief]

6 minutes ago, Toxxyc said:

Thanks.  The bigger one would be a Deye, and the two smaller ones would be LuxPowers.  This is the choice I have to make.

Regarding keeping the grid connected - I can't do that.  The smallholding is powered by Eskom direct, which incurs fees.  As I have it, those fees are payable, if you use their electricity or not, and they are at LandRate 1:

Network capacity charge @ R64.03

Service charge @ R53.19

For a total of R117.22 per day, just to keep it connected.  Over 31 days in a month, that's R3 633.83 per month.  Unless I'm mistaken, that's payable even if you don't use the grid at all, with the mains switched off.  For that money I'd rather run a generator.  R3 600 is a tidy amount of diesel to burn through.

ok, well, a trusty old petrol generator for emergencies can also work, or candles 

[mossie.jhb]

is Eskom Pre-paid not a cheaper option than the Eskom Post Paid.

could also drop down to Single phase Eskom Pre-Paid.

[Toxxyc]

I already have a generator as well.  I'm not sure if it's an 8kW or a 10kW, but it's in good condition and running well, and it'll be wired into the inverter as backup.  That's why I don't see the benefit of the Eskom connection.