Hi all,

Here is a very interesting video by a physics professor regarding the real cost of solar power in the USA, and should be useful for people just starting (or thinking of starting) in solar PV. It should also, in my humble opinion, be interesting and educational for more experienced people and installers.

Hope this link works... Enjoy

Really good video, thank you. And an inspiration for the future. We are blessed with abundant sunshine in SA so should jump in

Having said that, I am shown outrageous quotations for installing solar systems for private homes. The get rich quick attitude is alive and well and dedicated to ripping off the unwary public

Thanks for the feedback, Chris. The video is a few years old, but still very relevant, in my opinion.

9 hours ago, chrisc said:

Having said that, I am shown outrageous quotations for installing solar systems for private homes. The get rich quick attitude is alive and well and dedicated to ripping off the unwary public

Yes, the old "Wet van Transvaal" is still alive and well, but if you shop around you are bound to find some reasonable quotes. I would, however, caution against just chasing the best price, and also look at the quality and reputation of the installer. This is what I did when I had my system installed some 9 months ago, and to date I'm very happy with how it turned out.

I am an installer. Friends have shown me some really over the top quotes. One firm sent a 2-page spec and did not notice that they had added the installation fee twice. When challenged about ir, he got quite rude

Edited July 2Jul 2 by chrisc

Perhaps someone should come up with a formula to evaluate the total cost of an installed system (and not just the panels, as in the video), so that people can compare their various quotations. The biggest challenge will probably be to assign a value/cost to the quality of the equipment, and even more so to the quality of the installer 🤔

Lets see if our fellow Forumites have any thoughts on this...

@TaliaB , @Calvin , @Scorp007 , @Bobster. , @Sidewinder @GreenFields , @Coulomb , @Steve87 , and anyone else who would like to make a suggestion... and apologies to all the other greats that I have missed 😊

7 hours ago, HennieL said:

Perhaps someone should come up with a formula to evaluate the total cost of an installed system (and not just the panels, as in the video), so that people can compare their various quotations. The biggest challenge will probably be to assign a value/cost to the quality of the equipment, and even more so to the quality of the installer 🤔

Lets see if our fellow Forumites have any thoughts on this...

@TaliaB , @Calvin , @Scorp007 , @Bobster. , @Sidewinder @GreenFields , @Coulomb , @Steve87 , and anyone else who would like to make a suggestion... and apologies to all the other greats that I have missed 😊

My take on this as you mentioned there are so many variables that a forum cannot always say if a quote is good or not. Say the roof is slate at 45 degrees.

Its like buying a 1600cc car. An 1980 model made in one country not power steering, Aircon or electric windows using a 19 voetsek engine with a carburettor.

Cheap inverter vs a great hybrid.

One can at least comment when it is an itemised quote which is not always provided.

6 hours ago, Scorp007 said:

My take on this as you mentioned there are so many variables that a forum cannot always say if a quote is good or not. Say the roof is slate at 45 degrees.

True, but I did not say it would be easy 🤗

Even though one would not be able to model every possible configuration, it would certainly help people who are just starting to think about solar to gauge if a quotation is reasonable, and also if the quality/reputation of the equipment (inverter, panels, batteries, mountings, isolation switches, etc.) are to their liking - some people would always want the very best, and would be prepared to pay a premium price, others would be happy to settle for "not too bad" if the price is right.

To keep it reasonably simple, one could draw up a matrix of equipment brands vs cost and quality, and also do something similar for various types of installations (i.e. roof types & slopes vs installation cost, etc.)

Obviously there will always be arguments for or against the ratings/factors proposed for these variables, but input from a panel of experienced people, and some measurement of consensus would go a long way towards making such a model workable. Let's think about it and see what comes out of the hat...

17 hours ago, HennieL said:

True, but I did not say it would be easy 🤗

Even though one would not be able to model every possible configuration, it would certainly help people who are just starting to think about solar to gauge if a quotation is reasonable, and also if the quality/reputation of the equipment (inverter, panels, batteries, mountings, isolation switches, etc.) are to their liking - some people would always want the very best, and would be prepared to pay a premium price, others would be happy to settle for "not too bad" if the price is right.

To keep it reasonably simple, one could draw up a matrix of equipment brands vs cost and quality, and also do something similar for various types of installations (i.e. roof types & slopes vs installation cost, etc.)

Obviously there will always be arguments for or against the ratings/factors proposed for these variables, but input from a panel of experienced people, and some measurement of consensus would go a long way towards making such a model workable. Let's think about it and see what comes out of the hat...

Sounds like a good idea but also time is money for those really in the 'now to draw up such a matrix. We spend our time here because we like PV and to be self sufficient.

4 hours ago, Scorp007 said:

We spend our time here because we like PV and to be self sufficient.

Agreed, and that's why "we" would probably be more accurate and unbiased than "they" who do this for a living...

It would be great if more Forumites would chip in with opinions.

The trajectory of this discussion is very much welcome, in my view and makes sense especially given there's experts here who know how to calculate all if not most of the variables and also we have people who have "real-world" experiences of what was put on paper vs what they received and what they are experiencing in both the short term and long term. As someone who in my initial dive into Solar was absolutely reliant on installers and was willing to pay top-dollar, I still got my fingers and whole hand and body burnt and taken for a ride.

Now with experience am always willing to learn and also share my 2-cents. Installers who "supply and fix/fit" are also in this trade for making a living and making money and some are quite unscrupulous and this forum is a great help in correcting misconceptions and flagging also fly-by-night thieves. So am all for this idea of sharing, bantering, learning and re-learning.

The guy is really talking about what I understand to be a grid-tied system - inverter & panels but no battery. Batteries significantly change the ROI. Maybe such systems are becoming more popular in SA now that the likelihood of load shedding is so reduced. IDK. I bought a system with a battery, and the battery is the most expensive part of the system.

He makes another good point: The economic worth of the system to you depends on the price of electricity where you live. IDK what Eskom tariffs look like, but here in Johannesburg the default post-paid tariff carries fixed fees of just over a grand a month for a 60A single phase feed. You are in for a grand before you use a single kWh of electricity. But we pay less per kWh than folks in Cape Town do. So there is some maths for the purchaser to do.

And this is where a good installer comes in. A good installer will discuss your desired outcome, understand your current situation, guide you as regards likely savings. As in so many business areas, there is the bakkie brigade. They will quote a low price, slap some panels on your roof and an inverter in a corner. And that's it. The job may or may not meet safety requirements (that is to say it may or may not be legal) and should you want support after the install they will be unwilling and/or unable to provide that. (I have seen several properties in my neighbourhood with South facing panels - I find it hard to believe that those installers were doing the best for their client).

Other installers will take the time I already mentioned, will stay in touch with you for a while and monitor your system.

Then you have the rental companies who are attractive to the people who don't want to lay out a large wedge of cash and who don't walk to discuss technicalities. Those guys are not my cup of tea, but they are attractive to some.

A thing I notice in my neighbourhood is a change in conversation. A year ago it was that they could make me register my system after I've run out of ammunition. Now suddenly people are wanting to register. IDK why, my system was registered last year. So now the quality of the installation is done and really we should be doing what COCT enforces - you register first, then you install.

This is all about the installer, but an installer with skills and knowledge and paper work (can sign a COC, can do the registration or has access to somebody who can) is worth something and so is their time.

So for me this is like buying a "1600 cc car". Well there's whatever is the cheapest on the market right now, and there's the BMW and the AUDI. There's what is going to look flash in your driveway, and there's what is going to give you years of service - they may be the same, but it's not guaranteed and if you buy on price then you will get one (more likely the first) or the other but not both.

Too many variables beyond the price of the component.

I thought the guys who installed my system were good, and to be fair they provided support three or four years down the line.

Then I thought the guy who did my registration with the City was good.

Then I found out that my panels were not earthed - despite this being shown on the drawing submitted to the City. So my system was never compliant - despite the registration that was obtained.

The cost of a good system is more than the cost of the components.

To return to my opening point. I bought my system at a time when load shedding was on the rise - though not as bad as it would get. I work from home. We buy food in bulk and fill the deep freeze. We sailed through stage 6 with no hiccups. That's worth something too. I can't put a rands and cents value on it, but it has value. By one set of calculations I still have not recovered the cost of my system (we were not using a lot of electricity even before we went solar, because we are careful) but factor in those soft values (which may not apply any more) and there is working from home V commuting every day. Or working from home V the cost of a trolley inverter and new batteries every two years. No, I can't work it out either. My point is that the ROI proposition has changed and so the type of system we buy might have changed.

So I think there's no template/matrix to be drawn up. Every client has different expectations, and the installer makes a difference. There are some installers who use this forum who, and I have some personal experience in this regard, provide a very complete service. You have other guys who will wait until the money has cleared their bank account, slap some equipment around your house and disappear. You will have DIYers.

I met one of the latter who told me the cost of going off grid was 40 grand. He bought bits and piece from Builders and did it all himself. Who knows what he has and how good a job it does and if it is legal. And who knows whether or not he would have done better if he'd got somebody with a clue to provide a system for him.

TLDR. I don't think it's just about the cost and quality of the components.

Edited July 5Jul 5 by Bobster.
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Agreed, there are so many variables involved that a universal economic model is very difficult. The cost of generating equipment, and the cost of storage, the site-specific factors impacting installation, installer's markups, the expected lifespan of various components, degradation over time, the user's needs and usage profile, time of use, the municipal purchase tariffs, feed-in tariffs, the terms and conditions of grid export, meter costs, and also cost-avoidance. At least there are online tools and rules of thumb that can help predict generation, and one should be able to draw up a budget or a spreadsheet based on your power bill of how you intend to generate and use that power, and know at what cost you'd no longer be saving enough money for it to be worthwhile.

Or, if the "industry" would settle on the expected cost for a standard/benchmark kit that would fit most folks' needs, say a 5-10kW hybrid inverter with specific amount of panels and battery, plus installation parts, something that's available in every major town and city, say through a national retailer, with recommended fitment costs within a certain distance from the store, and a certain distance from the DB board, single-storey, etc. then that might be a way to work around the variation in quotes.

2 hours ago, Bobster. said:

I have seen several properties in my neighbourhood with South facing panels - I find it hard to believe that those installers were doing the best for their client...

Other installers will take the time I already mentioned, will stay in touch with you for a while and monitor your system...

This is all about the installer, but an installer with skills and knowledge and paper work (can sign a COC, can do the registration or has access to somebody who can) is worth something and so is their time...

So I think there's no template/matrix to be drawn up. Every client has different expectations, and the installer makes a difference. There are some installers who use this forum who, and I have some personal experience in this regard, provide a very complete service. You have other guys who will wait until the money has cleared their bank account, slap some equipment around your house and disappear. You will have DIYers...

I don't think it's just about the cost and quality of the components...

Thanks for your detailed, and well thought-out and articulated response - and I agree that there are some very good (ethics and value wise...) installers, but the problem arise when an inexperienced new PV owner-to-be decides to bite the bullet and install "some solar".

When I installed my first inverter (for myself) way before Loadshedding was even a word (around 2007 if I remember correctly...) there was very little information available on designing a system, and on available components. I basically had to bite the bullet and chose my inverter just based on country of manufacture (a Swiss made Studer XPC 2200-24...). Even in those days the batteries were ridiculously expensive, and I had to settle for 4x 12V telecoms type deep cycle VRLA sealed units that were made in China (and that lasted a good 16 years, I'm happy to say...). Although I did do my homework as best I could, given the scarcity of any decent reviews and data, it was still a gamble. Solar panels in South Africa were as scarce as chicken teeth, and I thus just used my system as a backup for some critical equipment that I wanted to always have power, fed from a rather reliable grid...

I designed my current system myself, based on what I learned through my trial and error first system, and after having done a lot of online research over a period of a few years, and only once prices dropped to more reasonable levels after Escom managed to eliminate most load shedding (mid 2024...). I thus specified the equipment to be quoted on, and the installation was done by a licensed electrician that came highly recommended by some happy clients that I know very well. Even so, to this day I don't know if my choice of equipment was the best "bang for the buck", or if the installation could perhaps have been done better - after some 10 months everything is still working as expected, but 10 months is a very short time in the life of a PV system...

So, from personal experience, I would have been much happier if I had access to unbiased feedback from experienced people on a Forum such as this, and I am still of the opinion that a "quality vs price" matrix of equipment would be of value to the majority of people just starting on their journey into solar.

23 hours ago, HennieL said:

So, from personal experience, I would have been much happier if I had access to unbiased feedback from experienced people on a Forum such as this, and I am still of the opinion that a "quality vs price" matrix of equipment would be of value to the majority of people just starting on their journey into solar.

I'm currently involved in an upgrade of a solar farm in La Réunion and a bit pressed for time, but I’ll circle back soon with some insights and a matrix comparing price vs quality vs ROI, using a key metric for fair comparison."