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Good Evening Forum.

 

Ive done some reading on the forum as a guest but decided to join today to learn more and understand my systems better and to help my friends in the future.

 

I have 2 systems currently installed.

I have a 3KVA inverter.  48V DC one.  The time I bought it, the guy said it was a Mercer Unit.  But now where in the unit it says its a Mercer.  It’s currently setup as a Glorified UPS. I only have 4x 120AH CB3 batteries connected to it to power my lights in Loadshedding.  I do however want to  add 6x 360Watt Canadian Sun KUMAX panels.  

The Sticker on the side is as follow:

Inverter Mode:

Rated Power: 3000VA/2400W

DC Input: 48V DC. 50A

AC Output: 230VAC, 13A

 

Solar Charger Mode:

Rated Current: 60A

System Voltage: 48V DC

Operating Voltage: 60-115vdc

Max Solar Voltage: (voc)145VDC

 

So, my question is the following:

I have about 900W total draw from the system.  Will the 6x 360W Solar Panels be sufficient to power the load during the day? I want to wire them 3 in series and 2 packs to the fuse box the. The inverter
The batteries will be replaced with 250AH Gell batteries when the solar panels arrives.

Any guides on how to program the unit to do the following:

Solar as priority during the day to supply the demand and charge the batteries (or float the batteries)  My batteries should only be used at night if we have loadshedding.
 

My 5KVA inverter (The Sun Pays) I want to do the exact same with, but I already have 9x 330W panels on it and 8x 200AH Gel batteries.  I want this one to perform the same way. The panels are wires 3 in series then the 3 packs to the fuse box, then the inverter.

 

Photo attached of the 3KVA and 5KVA inverter

 

any advice on configuration will be appreciated.

 

 

3E4E7B05-E811-4EDE-972C-0C0E1DA561A7.jpeg

BA2E4B52-E6B7-4EED-8B38-9405EB9FEFF0.jpeg

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Your 6 x 360 watt panels should produce 2160 watt per hour and there is two schools one says 5 hour per day on average and one say 6 hours per day on average if we base it on 5 hours the solar array will produce 10800 watt average per day so based on that your solar system will produce a lot more than what you use if 900 watt is the total power consumed during loadshedding. The same calculation can be applied to your second option. 

Do you only use these devices for Backup purposes or do you intend on running dedicated loads of the systems on a day to day basis. You definately have a lot of solar power available for some essential loads and I am sure the systems can be configured to only access the batteries during loadshedding. 

However this is assuming your load does not exceed production however the inverters can recharge the batteries from utility power.

You must also consider the orientation of your solar panels Ideal is north facing between 5 and 35 degrees angle best angle for winter is 35 degrees and for summer is 5 degrees there are many and varried opinions on this Personally I prefer a good medium so I mount my panels as close to 25 degrees as I can.

Configuration of your Axpert tipe inverter is better answered by Axpert experts I have experiece with these inverters but will not call my self an expert on them.

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20 hours ago, JpPaulKruger said:

I have about 900W total draw from the system.  Will the 6x 360W Solar Panels be sufficient to power the load during the day?

Yes, but only for several hours of the day, and not if it's raining.

20 hours ago, JpPaulKruger said:

I want to wire them 3 in series and 2 packs to the fuse box the.

You'll likely run into problems. I suggest 2S3P (i.e. three strings of 2 panels in series). That's assuming that your 360 W panels are 72-cell, as I'd expect them to be.

20 hours ago, JpPaulKruger said:

Solar as priority during the day to supply the demand and charge the batteries (or float the batteries)  My batteries should only be used at night if we have loadshedding.

You want the SOL output source priority (setting 01).

20 hours ago, JpPaulKruger said:

Photo attached of the 3KVA and 5KVA inverter

Your 3 kVA, while apparently not a Mecer, is at least a genuine Voltronic Power model.

Your 5 kVA model however is a clone.

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10 hours ago, SteveFury said:

Your 6 x 360 watt panels should produce 2160 watt per hour and there is two schools one says 5 hour per day on average and one say 6 hours per day on average if we base it on 5 hours the solar array will produce 10800 watt average per day so based on that your solar system will produce a lot more than what you use if 900 watt is the total power consumed during loadshedding. The same calculation can be applied to your second option. 

Do you only use these devices for Backup purposes or do you intend on running dedicated loads of the systems on a day to day basis. You definately have a lot of solar power available for some essential loads and I am sure the systems can be configured to only access the batteries during loadshedding. 

However this is assuming your load does not exceed production however the inverters can recharge the batteries from utility power.

You must also consider the orientation of your solar panels Ideal is north facing between 5 and 35 degrees angle best angle for winter is 35 degrees and for summer is 5 degrees there are many and varried opinions on this Personally I prefer a good medium so I mount my panels as close to 25 degrees as I can.

Configuration of your Axpert tipe inverter is better answered by Axpert experts I have experiece with these inverters but will not call my self an expert on them.

Thank you very much for the reply.

Im planning on adding a swivel to my panels with 2 different setpoints.  1 for 5/10degrees and 1 for 30/35 degrees.  This I can change manually as I need to according to seasons.  Not sure if this is maybe overkill, but I like the challenge.

Currently on my 3KVA I only have lights and my fishtank.  I will add some other loads to it as well.  Like my Network cabinet and plugs in my bedrooms.  Luckily my DB Board is designed and done by me, so to move circuits from Non Essential to Essential is quite easy. I will be moving them over.

 

The 5KVA is currently running the 2nd household (the old folks) and they need the backup power more than me, so I populated their setup 1st.  They have all the lights and all the plugs connected to the 5KVA.  Except for plugs in the kitchen and plugs in the bedroom where they have the hairdryer connected.  Also the Air-cons, geyser and oven runs directly from Eskom. 

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4 hours ago, Coulomb said:

Yes, but only for several hours of the day, and not if it's raining.


You'll likely run into problems. I suggest 2S3P (i.e. three strings of 2 panels in series). That's assuming that your 360 W panels are 72-cell, as I'd expect them to be.

You want the SOL output source priority (setting 01).

Your 3 kVA, while apparently not a Mecer, is at least a genuine Voltronic Power model.

Your 5 kVA model however is a clone.

Thank you very much for the reply.

I’m still a noob here and I try to understand why we need to wire the panels in series.  I always did mine 3panels per string.  Like my 5KVA I have 9 panels  3 per string  so I have 3 strings of 3x330W panels each. Do I need to change this config?  Will I get better results?

 The panels that I got for my 3KVA inverter are these : https://www.solarelectricsupply.com/fileuploader/download/download/?d=0&file=custom%2Fupload%2FCanadian-Solar-KuMax-CS3U-P-5BB-solar-panel-datasheet.pdf

So you recommend I wire then 2 panels per string. So I’ll have 3 packs of 2 panels each?  Any reason why this is better than 2 packs of 3 each?  I’m just trying to understand the reason behind the different configurations.

 

Ill setup the 3KVA once the panels are on the roof .

 

My 5KVA inverter I bought from The Sun Pays.  Not sure why I went that route, but it was a while back.  I’ll do some reading website you posted regarding the clone. 

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6 hours ago, JpPaulKruger said:

I’m still a noob here and I try to understand why we need to wire the panels in series.

The panels are nominally "24 V panels". That's a bit historical, but you could connect one of these to a 24 V battery via a PWM controller, and it would charge the battery. There simply aren't enough volts to charge a 48 V battery without series connection. With series connection, the voltages add.

The problem with connecting three in series is that you end up with too much voltage on cold sunny days. For example, the smallest of the panels you linked to has a Voc (at 25°C) of 45.7 V; three of these in series makes 137.1 V. That's already way past the 115 V operating maximum voltage, though in reality the true figure is 130 V. As panels get colder, the voltage goes up; they have about 7% more voltage at 0°C. That's 147 V, above the "never exceed" voltage of 145 V. Things could blow up. At exactly 145 V, it should not blow up, but the power derates to zero. Even back at 140 V, the power derates to 33%. Also, on those cold days, it could take hours before the temperature rises enough for the voltage to fall low enough for the solar charge controller to start using power, which will eventually pull the panels towards Vmp, which is within spec and full power will be available. So you'll lose production as well as endangering your inverter-charger.

As panels get bigger, their voltages get bigger too. In the linked PDF, the Voc rises from 45.7 V to 46.1 V as the nominal power goes from 335 to 345 W. A 360 W panel would be even worse. Even the 345 W panel would be around 148 V at 0°C (and standard conditions, admittedly a rare occurrence). But I've seen time and again problems with 3S of 72-cell panels, that vanish when they are configured for 2S.

6 hours ago, JpPaulKruger said:

So you recommend I wire then 2 panels per string. So I’ll have 3 packs of 2 panels each?

Yes. You end up with the same nominal power, but at lower voltage and higher current. It does unfortunately mean more wiring. 

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5 hours ago, Coulomb said:

The panels are nominally "24 V panels". That's a bit historical, but you could connect one of these to a 24 V battery via a PWM controller, and it would charge the battery. There simply aren't enough volts to charge a 48 V battery without series connection. With series connection, the voltages add.

The problem with connecting three in series is that you end up with too much voltage on cold sunny days. For example, the smallest of the panels you linked to has a Voc (at 25°C) of 45.7 V; three of these in series makes 137.1 V. That's already way past the 115 V operating maximum voltage, though in reality the true figure is 130 V. As panels get colder, the voltage goes up; they have about 7% more voltage at 0°C. That's 147 V, above the "never exceed" voltage of 145 V. Things could blow up. At exactly 145 V, it should not blow up, but the power derates to zero. Even back at 140 V, the power derates to 33%. Also, on those cold days, it could take hours before the temperature rises enough for the voltage to fall low enough for the solar charge controller to start using power, which will eventually pull the panels towards Vmp, which is within spec and full power will be available. So you'll lose production as well as endangering your inverter-charger.

As panels get bigger, their voltages get bigger too. In the linked PDF, the Voc rises from 45.7 V to 46.1 V as the nominal power goes from 335 to 345 W. A 360 W panel would be even worse. Even the 345 W panel would be around 148 V at 0°C (and standard conditions, admittedly a rare occurrence). But I've seen time and again problems with 3S of 72-cell panels, that vanish when they are configured for 2S.

Yes. You end up with the same nominal power, but at lower voltage and higher current. It does unfortunately mean more wiring. 

This is explained very well!  Thanx @Coulomb.  The guy that introduced me to this setup, never explained to me in this much detail.  This means that the way he helped me wire up my 5KVA needs to be changed?  Cause it’s wired in 3 panels per pack.  And 3 packs.  I have 9x 330w panels on the roof already.  And I never go higher than 1.2/1.5kw of PV power.  Do you advice me to change this to 2panels per pack and having them in 4 packs (8panels) and just add another to make it 10?

 

then another question.

 

I struggle to calculate hoe long my batteries will

last during Loadshedding.

 

my 5KVA has 8x 200AH Gel Batteries.  If we work on a load of 1500Watts at night or during loadshedding?

 

same with my 3KVA. I’m getting 4x 150AH Gel Batteries.  How long will this last me on a load of 1000watts at night or during Loadshedding?

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1 hour ago, JpPaulKruger said:

This means that the way he helped me wire up my 5KVA needs to be changed?  Cause it’s wired in 3 panels per pack.  And 3 packs.  I have 9x 330w panels on the roof already.

It seems it's a bit late for you to change. The situation is quite marginal; you'll quite possibly get away with it. It really depends on how often you get 0°C or less with moderate sun. Living 10,000 km away, it's hard for me to say. I'd say leave it as is, but be watchful for problems.

Quote

And I never go higher than 1.2/1.5kw of PV power.  

That doesn't help when the problem is excessive PV voltage.

Quote

 

I struggle to calculate hoe long my batteries will last during Loadshedding.

my 5KVA has 8x 200AH Gel Batteries.  If we work on a load of 1500Watts at night or during loadshedding?

 

Lead acid batteries can only be used to 50% of capacity for any sort of longevity. 8 x 200 Ah 12 V modules is 48 V at 400 Ah. So that's 19.2 kWh. Take off the 50% you have to leave in the battery, that's 9.6 kWh. Let's take off another 10% for losses and a tiny bit of ageing. That's 8.64 kWh; round it down to 8.5 kWh. 1500 W is a fair load continuously or as an average, but let's work with that figure. 8.5 kWh / 1.5 kW = 5.7 h. But now we have another problem; the 200 Ah rating is likely at the 20 h rate; at more like the 5 h rate, lead acid batteries due to a thing called the Peukert effect have less capacity; let's call it 180 Ah, so that's a further discount of 10%, so we should be using 8.64 x 0.9 = 7.8 kWh capacity, round down to 7.5 kWh.

So now we get 7.5 kWh / 1.5 kW = 5.0 h. That's assuming that you can switch off the inverter at 50% depth of discharge, and a bunch of other things. But it should give you an idea.

Quote

same with my 3KVA. I’m getting 4x 150AH Gel Batteries.  How long will this last me on a load of 1000watts at night or during Loadshedding?

So that's 48 V @ 150 Ah before discounting, or 0.375 of the larger battery's capacity. So work on 7.8 x 0.375 = 2.93 kWh, round out to 3 kWh. 3 kWh / 1.0 kW = 3 h. It may actually be a lot less, since the above calculations were assuming a load of C/5, and this will be a load of C/3, so the Peukert effect will be worse. They're probably older as well.

I hope I didn't err with the maths.

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@Coulomb sound math just one thing I would like to add is the assumed duty cycle of the batteries vary vastly even with Gel batteries and the Average duty cycle of a decent Gel battery is never more than 3600 Cycles @20% DOD cycling the same battery to 50% will only give about 1200 Cycles and a estimated life of 3 years..so I normally recommend a 20% DOD for reasonable life this reduces the available usable capacity signficantly. 

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17 hours ago, Coulomb said:

It seems it's a bit late for you to change. The situation is quite marginal; you'll quite possibly get away with it. It really depends on how often you get 0°C or less with moderate sun. Living 10,000 km away, it's hard for me to say. I'd say leave it as is, but be watchful for problems.

That doesn't help when the problem is excessive PV voltage.

Lead acid batteries can only be used to 50% of capacity for any sort of longevity. 8 x 200 Ah 12 V modules is 48 V at 400 Ah. So that's 19.2 kWh. Take off the 50% you have to leave in the battery, that's 9.6 kWh. Let's take off another 10% for losses and a tiny bit of ageing. That's 8.64 kWh; round it down to 8.5 kWh. 1500 W is a fair load continuously or as an average, but let's work with that figure. 8.5 kWh / 1.5 kW = 5.7 h. But now we have another problem; the 200 Ah rating is likely at the 20 h rate; at more like the 5 h rate, lead acid batteries due to a thing called the Peukert effect have less capacity; let's call it 180 Ah, so that's a further discount of 10%, so we should be using 8.64 x 0.9 = 7.8 kWh capacity, round down to 7.5 kWh.

So now we get 7.5 kWh / 1.5 kW = 5.0 h. That's assuming that you can switch off the inverter at 50% depth of discharge, and a bunch of other things. But it should give you an idea.

So that's 48 V @ 150 Ah before discounting, or 0.375 of the larger battery's capacity. So work on 7.8 x 0.375 = 2.93 kWh, round out to 3 kWh. 3 kWh / 1.0 kW = 3 h. It may actually be a lot less, since the above calculations were assuming a load of C/5, and this will be a load of C/3, so the Peukert effect will be worse. They're probably older as well.

I hope I didn't err with the maths.

I highly doubt that the load will be a constant 1500w at night.  It’s just a quick thumbsuck figure. 

 

so if I , as suggested by @SteveFury, dod the batteries to 20% , any advice on how to program the inverter to never use more than the 20%
 

I do plan on adding the ICC module to the inverters soon.

 

Once again.  Thankful for the explanations on all  my questions thus far 

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14 hours ago, SteveFury said:

@Coulomb sound math just one thing I would like to add is the assumed duty cycle of the batteries vary vastly even with Gel batteries and the Average duty cycle of a decent Gel battery is never more than 3600 Cycles @20% DOD cycling the same battery to 50% will only give about 1200 Cycles and a estimated life of 3 years..

Sure. But my understanding is that @JpPaulKruger is wanting this mainly or exclusively for load shedding. In that case, it seems to me that you want to minimise your candle time; to hell with the battery life (up to a point of course) because candles suck. Eskom might get their act together in a few months, then the DOD can be cut back to 20% without needing to burn beeswax because the utility can take the load at the 20% DOD point. 50% is an arbitrary figure too of course, just a compromise between battery life and load shed runtime that leans heavily towards runtime, while hopefully not burning up too much battery life.

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9 hours ago, JpPaulKruger said:

so if I , as suggested by @SteveFury, dod the batteries to 20% , any advice on how to program the inverter to never use more than the 20%

It's a matter of increasing setting 12, the back to utility voltage.

Quote

I do plan on adding the ICC module to the inverters soon.

That's good, because I believe that ICC can do the switch to/from utility at a given SOC, regardless of load, temperature, battery age, and all the other things that affect battery voltage.

However, I don't know if ICC can tell the inverter to turn off to save the battery. People are connecting small relays to their inverters' power switches to achieve this, and use ICC to drive those relays, but not everyone is happy to go tearing into their inverters to do this.

Edited by Coulomb
Added "to save the battery"
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So.

 

Ive finished installing my 6x 365W Canadian Sun panels over the weekend, and I’m now busy playing around with the default settings on the Inverter.

I would like to set it up as follow.

 

Solar should supply load, then Eskom (might want to change this later on, but I don’t want to discharge my batteries more than 20/30%

 

would you guys mind checking out my existing settings and give some advice as to where I should change something?

01  SOL

02  30A

03  APL

04  DISABLED

05  USER

06 DISABLED

07 DISABLED

09  50

11  15

12  50

13  54

16  CSO SOLAR FIRST

18  BON ON

19 ESP

20  LON  ON

22 AON ON

23 BYE ENABLED 

25 FEN ENABLED

26  56.4

27  56

29  42

 

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I need to change out my old 150AH CB3 batteries with new 150AH Gel Batteries, But I first want to make sure my settings are perfect. Don’t want to damage the batteries if not needed.

 

Initially I only wanted to use batteries when we have loadshedding at night.  But I think I want to change this to actually use the batteries at night as well. Especially when we are sleeping, only my fridge and fishtank and security lights will be running.

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On 2020/08/02 at 10:45 PM, JpPaulKruger said:

27  56

Is this because of the premature float bug? They copied that too?

Is there no setting 32, or 33-39?

On 2020/08/02 at 10:45 PM, JpPaulKruger said:

29  42

That's really low. For battery life, I'd bump that up a fair bit. At least 46 V. Since you're using this as a UPS, and load shedding seems to be more or less regular, this changes from a once or twice in the life of the battery emergency event to a routine shutoff point.

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5 hours ago, Coulomb said:

Is this because of the premature float bug? They copied that too?

Is there no setting 32, or 33-39?

That's really low. For battery life, I'd bump that up a fair bit. At least 46 V. Since you're using this as a UPS, and load shedding seems to be more or less regular, this changes from a once or twice in the life of the battery emergency event to a routine shutoff point.

No settings higer than 29 on my 3KVA. Only the ones mentioned.

 

I wanted to use it as a UPS but realized I might as well use the batteries at night time as well instead of only during Loadshedding.

 

so I need to change the settings to accommodate this feature.  But in the same sentence, I don’t want to discharge the batteries more that 30-40%. The it needs to go back to utility.

 

ive tested it now for a few evenings and I use maximum of 500-600w on the inverter DB outlet.  So this, during the day gets carried by Solar and at night by grid.  But want the batteries to contribute at night.

 

so I assume I need to change setting 1 to SBU,  

 

and the. 26,27,29 to accommodate the discharge limit?

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8 hours ago, JpPaulKruger said:

No settings higer than 29 on my 3KVA. Only the ones mentioned.

Ok, so the high value for 27 (usually 54 V for lead acid) is appropriate to work around the premature float bugs.

8 hours ago, JpPaulKruger said:

I might as well use the batteries at night time as well instead of only during Loadshedding.

Oh. So yes, you then want SBU for setting 01.

8 hours ago, JpPaulKruger said:

I don’t want to discharge the batteries more that 30-40%

That's controlled by settings 12 and 13. The higher setting 12, the sooner the inverter goes back to grid. The higher the setting 13, the later it switches back to battery. These you have to set by trial and error, since it depends on your loads and other factors. 50 V for setting 12 seems like a good place to start.

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Hi Guys.

 

So.  I’ve installed the new batteries today.  All went well.  Except now all of a sudden the unit gives me a 04 Error Code “Low Batteries”?  Could this be that the batteries still needs to charge or am I doing something wrong?  It only shows this error during day time when PV supplies load and Eskom is not available.  When Eskom comes back online, The PV drops from 850W to 5w and the inverter goes into bypass mode and pv only charges the batteries.  I always had CSB Lead Acid batteries, but now I have 4x 150AH Sealed Gell Batteries.

Ive made some other changes to the settings as well.

setting 12 on 50

setting 13 on 54

setting 26 on 54

setting 27 on 55.4

setting 29 on 50

 

Could these settings maybe be the cause of the 04 error? Or could it be that the batteries still needs charging?

 

Also, My charging LED when Fully Lid, means the batteries are fully charged, but the battery icon still flashes to indicate charging?

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13 hours ago, JpPaulKruger said:

now all of a sudden the unit gives me a 04 Error Code “Low Batteries”?  

I assume you mean warning 04, also "battery low". Fault code 04 (error 04) would stop the inverter, and you'd get the ERROR indicator (blue lettering on white) rather than the warning symbol (, exclamation in a triangle).

Quote

When Eskom comes back online, The PV drops from 850W to 5w and the inverter goes into bypass mode and pv only charges the batteries.  

Taking the load off the battery will raise its voltage; when it reaches the value in setting 29 (low battery cutoff voltage) plus 4.0 V, the warning will go away.

Quote

now I have 4x 150AH Sealed Gell Batteries.

I think you'll find that those will want about 14.1 V per 12 V module to fully charge, so that's 56.4 V total.

Quote

 

setting 12 on 50

setting 13 on 54

setting 26 on 54

setting 27 on 55.4

setting 29 on 50

 

I assume that you must have swapped the values for settings 26 and 27; on a real Axpert, setting 26 (the absorb/CV voltage) has to be higher than setting 27 (the float voltage).

Quote

Could these settings maybe be the cause of the 04 error?

Yes, this is the infamous undocumented behaviour of Axperts (and presumably their clones). It's discussed in FAQ question 1, though from the point of view of a system with a LFP battery. Setting 29 is meant to be about your 0% SOC point (actually, -2% per the simplistic reported SOC), so if the battery voltage is within 2.0 V of this, it considers the battery voltage to be low, and issues the warning. The warning doesn't go away until 4.0 V above setting 29 (for 48 V inverters).

The trouble starts when people need to use setting 29 to be the thing that saves the battery for excessive discharge every load shed, which is unfortunately so regular now. So you'd want setting 29 to represent about 50% discharge when under load, and that's very different from the ~0% SOC assumed. So to keep the warning from happening, make setting 29 2.0 V less than setting 12. Then at the point where the alarm would be about to start, the inverter switches to bypass mode anyway (if AC-in is present, of course). During a load shed, the alarm will still come on at 50 V, but the battery really is low at that point, so you can use the alarm as a signal to try to minimise loads. There is no harm to the inverter from having the alarm sounding. It may not be so good for your battery or for your nerves, of course.

Quote

Also, My charging LED when Fully Lid, means the batteries are fully charged, but the battery icon still flashes to indicate charging?

The charge LED going solid indicates that you are in float mode. I suspect that the flashing battery icon indicates low battery rather than charging.

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Thank you so very much for this feedback.  It really helps me understand my inverter better.  I will be playing around with it a bit more today and fine tune the settings even more.

 

why would the inverter only indicate 8-15W of PV power while charging the batteries via PV and the load via bypass if the PV is sufficient to power the load and charge the batteries?

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2 hours ago, JpPaulKruger said:

why would the inverter only indicate 8-15W of PV power while charging the batteries via PV and the load via bypass if the PV is sufficient to power the load and charge the batteries?

Neither of your models can blend AC-in power with battery or solar power. In bypass mode, ALL the load power is supplied from AC-in. But if you have a full battery and enough available PV power, you should be in battery mode, where PV power supplies all or some of the load. If you've just entered bypass mode because of a momentary overload, you should be back to battery mode in ten minutes (two minutes for fully patched firmware). 

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