2nd hand Victron equipment

[Guest]

24v Phoenix 1600VA 5 year old inverter, off-grid: R6000.00 neg - want to try a 24v Multiplus.

SOLD:
24v Victron Multiplus Compact 2000va, 4 years old: R13 000.00 neg
Victron BlueSolar 75/15 controller with cable: R 1500.00
Morningstar Tristar45 PWM Controller with cable: R1500

[___]

You finally succumbed to the call of the Axpert?

[SilverNodashi]

Wait, what?

[Guest]

I would rather have my toenails burnt and then pulled before I go to Voltronics. 

A long play in the works.

[Chris Hobson]

27 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

I would rather have my toenails burnt and then pulled before I go to Voltronics. 

One day I am going to remind you of this.. 

To be absolutely fair Voltronics is not in the same class as Victron but I'll clock in with you in a year or two's time. I think that China's electronics industry is a sleeping giant and they are going to produce good kit soon. I must admit Mike's reporting of mainboards and SCC needing replacing is a step in the wrong direction. When I contacted Voltronics about my rebranded Mecer the told me it was not supplied by them so I am really confused as to what is the real thing, rebranded, and what is a copy.

[Weasel]

Selling because the 12/350 can run anything. 

[viper_za]

Getting the 50w inverters he spoke about the other day along with the home made arduino MPPT with its 50w max panels.

[___]

Look inside the case of that Multiplus if the processor is the "new" one, ie firmware starts with 26- or 27. If it starts with 18 or 19 it's the old one. These units are worth significantly more if they have the new processor, because then they can run th 300 and 400 series firmwares which means they can do the fancy hub stuff.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Chris Hobson said:

One day I am going to remind you of this.. 

To be absolutely fair Voltronics is not in the same class as Victron but I'll clock in with you in a year or two's time. I think that China's electronics industry is a sleeping giant and they are going to produce good kit soon. I must admit Mike's reporting of mainboards and SCC needing replacing is a step in the wrong direction.

And Adries Malan recently. Chris, I think the chance of that is between zero and niks. 

If the units you guys have bought work for many many years, giving you joy, I would be very happy for all of you, really, no jokes. The passion is commendable and nothing so cool when you look back 5, then 10 then X years and the inverter still just works at that price you paid.

And Axpert's are THE best starting inverter EVER for a newbie, IF you are on this or the Australian forum!!!

Allow me a moment to speak frankly for if I am wrong, then whoopee for all the Voltronic users, I look the fool. But if I am right, and the trend escalates that Mike and Andries has seen so far, o man I would be really sad ... but one persons problem is another person opportunity. (evil grin)

Rant starts:
Many years ago LED lights came to SA. Man they where expensive. Next moment every 2nd person and their families where selling LED's, the Chinese oaks, each one copying from his pal's mother in law's kitchen bulb, they are very clever the Chinese, making even more and ever cheaper bulbs, even more local websites for LED's. The established brands and suppliers warned, but lost. Man I got lights for like R25 a pop with discounts and delivery included. Pulled in a lot of friends and family, we all bought. Yes there where failures, but they where promptly swapped.

3 years and counting, they are all failing, getting weaker then die. They are k_k compared to the same brand names, who's prices dropped(!!!) from back then. I lost it with a cheap sh_t TAL LED 10w last week and gooied a vloermoer of note, rounding it off with a backflip met my boepens en al, when I bought 2 x 5w ACDC LED bulbs and they outshone every single 5 and 7w bulb I have in the house. And the best, some of the original 7watt spares I had, never used, are just useless. Less than 3 watts of light compared.

Now, interestingly, the supplier I, we, bought from, have no more of these cheap sh_t LED's. None. I wonder why.
Rant over.

My reluctance for Axpert, or whatever they are called, was born when they came out with the original really stupid MPPT sized controllers for the inverters. It was a foefie. I wondered back then how "cheap" the controllers really where as I as was "into" cheap Chinese controllers back then. I still have 3 left ... want one? 

The Chinese make a lot of very cheap MPPT's.

Then overnight it exploded, the units rolled in due to Eskom failures, everyone a solar expert and then the rest caught on, easy money! People buying from TAL and online retailers and every 2nd website selling the inverter with most having no cooking clue of what is what to advise the customer properly. Not enough profit I suspect. Interesting the UPS people I deal with never really took to the Axpert. Never knew why but I did find it interesting.

The other issue I picked up was the speed at which the changes are being done since that first batches arrived, new models coming out faster than you can cope, way too fast for proper testing and research, in my opinion.

So my gut feel says, same as the LED's, this is a boom and it is going to end and then there will be less distributors, no recourse, and even less sellers and at higher prices, same "formula" as the LED's. That is my gut.

And then I read you said:

1 hour ago, Chris Hobson said:

When I contacted Voltronics about my rebranded Mecer the told me it was not supplied by them so I am really confused as to what is the real thing, rebranded, and what is a copy.

So is this the same, maybe, what happened with the LED lights, every 2nd China oak copying the next guy driving price down on cheap bulk? Everyone climbing on the band wagon making quick money as with, yes, again the LED's?

Chris, sorry, but I just cannot get past the above unless yours and all other other staunch supporters have reported back all going for 5+ years with no drama, here in SA, unless you pull a TTT on a device, and got it fixed.

[Guest]

52 minutes ago, Weasel said:

Selling because the 12/350 can run anything. 

Nope - but I am going to try the fridge one of these days ... unless you guys tell me rather not?

 

49 minutes ago, viper_za said:

Getting the 50w inverters he spoke about the other day along with the home made arduino MPPT with its 50w max panels.

Nope. LED's, the cheap sh_t ones, flicker too much plus I have not sorted the charging out to do it fast enough. 

[SilverNodashi]

10 hours ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

And Adries Malan recently. Chris, I think the chance of that is between zero and niks. 

If the units you guys have bought work for many many years, giving you joy, I would be very happy for all of you, really, no jokes. The passion is commendable and nothing so cool when you look back 5, then 10 then X years and the inverter still just works at that price you paid.

And Axpert's are THE best starting inverter EVER for a newbie, IF you are on this or the Australian forum!!!

Allow me a moment to speak frankly for if I am wrong, then whoopee for all the Voltronic users, I look the fool. But if I am right, and the trend escalates that Mike and Andries has seen so far, o man I would be really sad ... but one persons problem is another person opportunity. (evil grin)

Rant starts:
Many years ago LED lights came to SA. Man they where expensive. Next moment every 2nd person and their families where selling LED's, the Chinese oaks, each one copying from his pal's mother in law's kitchen bulb, they are very clever the Chinese, making even more and ever cheaper bulbs, even more local websites for LED's. The established brands and suppliers warned, but lost. Man I got lights for like R25 a pop with discounts and delivery included. Pulled in a lot of friends and family, we all bought. Yes there where failures, but they where promptly swapped.

3 years and counting, they are all failing, getting weaker then die. They are k_k compared to the same brand names, who's prices dropped(!!!) from back then. I lost it with a cheap sh_t TAL LED 10w last week and gooied a vloermoer of note, rounding it off with a backflip met my boepens en al, when I bought 2 x 5w ACDC LED bulbs and they outshone every single 5 and 7w bulb I have in the house. And the best, some of the original 7watt spares I had, never used, are just useless. Less than 3 watts of light compared.

Now, interestingly, the supplier I, we, bought from, have no more of these cheap sh_t LED's. None. I wonder why.
Rant over.

My reluctance for Axpert, or whatever they are called, was born when they came out with the original really stupid MPPT sized controllers for the inverters. It was a foefie. I wondered back then how "cheap" the controllers really where as I as was "into" cheap Chinese controllers back then. I still have 3 left ... want one? 

The Chinese make a lot of very cheap MPPT's.

Then overnight it exploded, the units rolled in due to Eskom failures, everyone a solar expert and then the rest caught on, easy money! People buying from TAL and online retailers and every 2nd website selling the inverter with most having no cooking clue of what is what to advise the customer properly. Not enough profit I suspect. Interesting the UPS people I deal with never really took to the Axpert. Never knew why but I did find it interesting.

The other issue I picked up was the speed at which the changes are being done since that first batches arrived, new models coming out faster than you can cope, way too fast for proper testing and research, in my opinion.

So my gut feel says, same as the LED's, this is a boom and it is going to end and then there will be less distributors, no recourse, and even less sellers and at higher prices, same "formula" as the LED's. That is my gut.

And then I read you said:

So is this the same, maybe, what happened with the LED lights, every 2nd China oak copying the next guy driving price down on cheap bulk? Everyone climbing on the band wagon making quick money as with, yes, again the LED's?

Chris, sorry, but I just cannot get past the above unless yours and all other other staunch supporters have reported back all going for 5+ years with no drama, here in SA, unless you pull a TTT on a device, and got it fixed.

I'm not going to quote inbetween the lines since the forum software doesn't do it properly!

So, here' my 2c. You're right about the LED's - there's cheap stuff, and there's decent stuff. And then you have suppliers who rip you off cause they can. I get anything between 40 * 80% discount on some stuff, at some of my suppliers! Do the math. 80% is a LOT. 

I've also, recently seen many well known suppliers who started stocking the same cheap LED's - why? Did it get better? Or are they just riding the cheap-ass bandwagon and pocketing nicely from it? I think it's the latter. Having replaced both good brand LED lights and cheap LED lights, I can say this. Old / inadequate wiring, old switches and rusty light fittings will fail any LED light prematurely. Flaky day/night switches as well. LED's are not as tough as incandescent light bulbs.

Taking this further, many of the biggest brands, of just about anything technology driven has a factory (or 5) in China! And Japan. And sometimes in Taiwan. And many of these companies (factories?) produce both the expensive / trusted equipment, and cheaper "brands". Does it necessarily make the cheaper ones worse? Two car brands, Hyundai and Kia seems to have proven this theory wrong. Axpert is too new on the market to prove the same. 

On the support issue from Voltronic, many factories / companies don't offer support for rebranded products. It's generally the OEM partner's responsibility to carry support. For the same reason why your supplier doesn't support your clients (normal occurrence in most industries). Intel doesn't support your faulty HP laptop, HP does.

Sure, the Axpers are cheap, but they offer features which the Victron's don't. So it's not just a matter of price, heck there are many other brands cheaper than Victron. And some more expensive brands as well. But Victrons have limited "feedback" - users need to figure out what the LED's mean, and how the jumpers work to properly configure their inverters. Many other brands don't have this limitation and do sell easier for that very reason. 

Imagine driving a Beem / Merc / Maserati but having to figure out how fast you drive, or how the indicators work based on a technical manual which doesn't always make sens? ^joke^ That's probably why there are so many toyota's on the roads  ^/joke^

 

 

 

[___]

Victron did away with the Jumpers about two years ago... there's like two whole major firmware versions between then and now... try to keep up to date will you! :-P They decided the RAM used by that code can be put to better use.

With that said, I don't think a comparison between crap LEDs from china and the Axpert is fair. Also, there is a massive difference between stuff made in Taiwan and stuff made in China (as in The People's Republic). Yes, lots of people have factories in China and sometimes the same factory churns out the same stuff under different names. Go to a television store and line up a Telefunken with a JVC. See those similarities? Yes, they are made in the same factory. But... but... Telefunken is like this old dependable German make and JVC are the original high-end VHS equipment maker.... no, haven't been for a long time. The name was bought.

Guys, if you really want to see total havoc, try buying a piano. There's like 5000 brands in the world, most of them built in China and Korea, and the Chinese ones are MOSTLY crap. If you want to see just how poor the "made in the same factory" argument fares, you need look no further than the piano. They will literally make a brilliant and a crap piano in the same building. Read this for a bit of a laugh:

http://www.steinwaynaples.com/lets-compare-pianos-from-the-same-factory/

Further, I am reminded of the 90s when I lived not very far from the guy who had the Hyundai Agency in Windhoek. Here was this guy importing these cars from Korea, unknown brand... we were all like... no way, can't buy that. Better stick with the brands you know...

You know what? Those guys who bought the first Hyundais absolutely scored. It was as dependable as a Toyota at a significantly smaller price. Here is my point though: It could easily have gone the other way. Unless you're some kind of soothsayer or diviner, you don't know.

Take as another data point the previous Toyota Corolla model (2007-2012). Compared to their previous cars, this one should be great, right? So don't get me wrong, it is still a great car, but it is not as great as the 1998-2002 model was (judged by it's competition), and then some of their cars allegedly tried to kill the Americans, a worthwhile endeavour perhaps, but somewhat frowned upon in motoring circles. Moral of that story: Even a track record isn't everything, every new model essentially starts over.

So for now I will stick to my opinion: The Voltronics are 5-year inverters. For what you pay, that is perfectly fine :-)

[Guest]

But Silver, I never once mentioned Victron did I? My perspective on why I don't want to buy Axpert. 

Plonk, I said it is my perspective on why I don't want to buy Axpert.  
And the inverters are being copied, which was what triggered it all.

I agree 100% with Plonkster, the Voltronic range is 5 year inverter, brilliant to start with as it does not cost you an arm and a leg like some makes do.

 

Markups, Sunday in Game I picked up a brand name 3w bulb was R79.00. Someone stole my trolley in one of the ayles so I though I will get one at Builders across the street as I am going there. The exact same brand, just 4w, R139.00 - I left.

Markups are sometimes ridiculous as we are taken for a ride.

[Guest]

Once you have blue on your wall, you will beg, borrow and steal to keep it there.

Found a new supplier for Victron equipment. 18 years in business supplying Victron. Fly any part you want in, also repairs. 

Spoke to the main boss for over an hour, what a interesting person, We laughed, joked, talked politics and solar, just clicked.

Was good before, now it is even better.

 

[___]

43 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

Spoke to the main boss for over an hour, what a interesting person, We laughed, joked, talked politics and solar, just clicked.

Well face it, it's good business is it not? Because of that attitude they have towards customers and hobbyists and all sorts of technical people, people like you and I are on this forum singing their praises.

You should have gone on that training day TTT. André is JUST such a nice guy. He'll tell you all about people wanting to drive fast on marie biscuit wheels... :-)

[Guest]

It was a awesome chat. I am sooo going to have beers with him!

The stories my new friend shared about guys wanting to trade in "other" inverters for Victron, which is not possible. Victron for Victron yes, about people wanting to sue Grundfos for pumps not preforming to specs until he asks them to bring in the panels only to find them the cheapest brand the guy could buy when his 4 x 50w preform better than their 4 x 75w panels, and all that when you specialise in off-grid systems, yachts and keeping antivenom at the right temp in ambulances, and you are not interested in the least to market to home users, it is a different world than where we live.

What I liked VERY much, if I want to buy a 2nd hand Victron, I can send it to them for testing, but he said I would be stretched to find 2nd hand Victron. And he is right.

And if they have the parts from other units, they will re-use or ship in new if client wants. And he drives a '78 bakkie ... my type of guy on that front too.

Unbeknownst to him, he sold me my Phoenix, and when I told him what I did with the 350va, he had a good chuckle. And their prices ... I liked them, need to find a bank to rob or trade in the kids, cannot sell the Wife, too much hassle.

[Chris Hobson]

2 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

cannot sell the Wife,

You may find that the secondhand wife market is as difficult as the secondhand Victron market for different reasons. TTT I know  blou is jou gunsteling kleur maar daai vrou van jou slat jou pimpel en pers.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Chris Hobson said:

You may find that the secondhand wife market is as difficult as the secondhand Victron market for different reasons. TTT I know  blou is jou gunsteling kleur maar daai vrou van jou slat jou pimpel en pers.

Ja, NOW I know ... will be out of the hospital Friday next week.

Still no Blue decoration prominently mounted on the wall in living room though. Art must be appreciated and shared, I said. Just got a strange look, NO idea what she meant.

[SilverNodashi]

4 hours ago, plonkster said:

Victron did away with the Jumpers about two years ago... there's like two whole major firmware versions between then and now... try to keep up to date will you! :-P They decided the RAM used by that code can be put to better use.

With that said, I don't think a comparison between crap LEDs from china and the Axpert is fair. Also, there is a massive difference between stuff made in Taiwan and stuff made in China (as in The People's Republic). Yes, lots of people have factories in China and sometimes the same factory churns out the same stuff under different names. Go to a television store and line up a Telefunken with a JVC. See those similarities? Yes, they are made in the same factory. But... but... Telefunken is like this old dependable German make and JVC are the original high-end VHS equipment maker.... no, haven't been for a long time. The name was bought.

Guys, if you really want to see total havoc, try buying a piano. There's like 5000 brands in the world, most of them built in China and Korea, and the Chinese ones are MOSTLY crap. If you want to see just how poor the "made in the same factory" argument fares, you need look no further than the piano. They will literally make a brilliant and a crap piano in the same building. Read this for a bit of a laugh:

http://www.steinwaynaples.com/lets-compare-pianos-from-the-same-factory/

Further, I am reminded of the 90s when I lived not very far from the guy who had the Hyundai Agency in Windhoek. Here was this guy importing these cars from Korea, unknown brand... we were all like... no way, can't buy that. Better stick with the brands you know...

You know what? Those guys who bought the first Hyundais absolutely scored. It was as dependable as a Toyota at a significantly smaller price. Here is my point though: It could easily have gone the other way. Unless you're some kind of soothsayer or diviner, you don't know.

Take as another data point the previous Toyota Corolla model (2007-2012). Compared to their previous cars, this one should be great, right? So don't get me wrong, it is still a great car, but it is not as great as the 1998-2002 model was (judged by it's competition), and then some of their cars allegedly tried to kill the Americans, a worthwhile endeavour perhaps, but somewhat frowned upon in motoring circles. Moral of that story: Even a track record isn't everything, every new model essentially starts over.

So for now I will stick to my opinion: The Voltronics are 5-year inverters. For what you pay, that is perfectly fine :-)

Odd. We installed some Victron multiplus 5Kw inverters in March and they still had jumpers. Supplier probably had old stock?

 

Yes, there's a difference between a Chinese and Taiwanese product, but did you know that many Taiwanees companies / products have factories in China, even though they quality is the same?

What you're missing though, is that I didn't compare the Victron to the Axpert - alone ,but rather brought up the fact that the Victron is falling behind (even though they're expensive and sales reps like selling them to you cause they make nice profit). Many other inverters have much better interfaces for the end user to quickly see what's going on. Microcare, as example, have LED and LCD MPPT charge controllers. The MPPT version is more expensive, but can log data for 30 days. The LED ones are perfect for small standalone setups, but the LCD gives more control and a better understanding of the system. 

but, let's keep these discussions in the forums and not in the classifieds?

[SilverNodashi]

2 hours ago, Chris Hobson said:

You may find that the secondhand wife market is as difficult as the secondhand Victron market for different reasons. TTT I know  blou is jou gunsteling kleur maar daai vrou van jou slat jou pimpel en pers.

hahaha. I wouldn't want a 2nd hand wife! Took me 10 years to train this one, and she's still moaning and groaning sometimes

[___]

9 minutes ago, SilverNodashi said:

Odd. We installed some Victron multiplus 5Kw inverters in March and they still had jumpers. Supplier probably had old stock?

Okay, so I googled that. In the 3xx version of firmware, the dipswitches were taken out to free up space. In the 4xx version they were put back because it's still useful when you can configure a simple installation without having to use a laptop. So it's a best-of-both scenario.

I would not compare the Microcare unit here. The Victron MPPT is IP65. The Microcare unit rusts after 2 years! :-) And the new 150/70 does have an LCD (but it's 9k!) :-)

[SilverNodashi]

8 minutes ago, plonkster said:

Okay, so I googled that. In the 3xx version of firmware, the dipswitches were taken out to free up space. In the 4xx version they were put back because it's still useful when you can configure a simple installation without having to use a laptop. So it's a best-of-both scenario.

I would not compare the Microcare unit here. The Victron MPPT is IP65. The Microcare unit rusts after 2 years! :-) And the new 150/70 does have an LCD (but it's 9k!) :-)

ok, well I guess you win. Victron is simply the best.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, SilverNodashi said:

Victron is simply the best.

One down, who's next? 

[___]

22 minutes ago, SilverNodashi said:

ok, well I guess you win. Victron is simply the best.

No, I actually think Outback scores a little higher. Personal opinion. I like the Microcare, for its simplicity, I know the circuitry in that thing better than the back of my hand. That LCD is a stock-standard unit that costs 5USD on ebay, incidentally very similar to the one used on the WRND controller. I'm sorry, I don't mean to play the fan boy too hard, I just can't help it when people say things like "they are falling behind". No, they are not. They serve a different kind of customer. (And I did say that the one with the LCD costs 9k... that's hardly a good thing).

[viper_za]

1 minute ago, plonkster said:

They serve a different kind of customer.

The stuck in the old way customer.
Sorry Plonkster you walked into this one