COCT Generation of set Insentive makes batteries to expensive !!! Well done COCT

[Chloe 52]

Yes the inverter requires a reference voltage either via the grid or via a battery.

[Erastus 81]

7 hours ago, Kalahari Meerkat said:

Until the grid disappears....

 

Also your option is only financially viable if you're already on the grid and the energy provider will allow feed in. I have an acquaintance who's about to build somewhere outside the CT municipal area, along the west coast and he was talking about somewhere around 60 to 80kR for Eksdom to put in a prepaid meter and power line, there is no power on his premises at this stage, I suggested solar + hybrid inverter + wind turbine + some battery capacity and when all is smeared with what hit the fan a little generator to add some 'lectrons to the batteries. The wind turbine he'll homebrew, the rest will be cobbled together as cost effectively as possible...

 

Must be very far from Cape Town.  Inbox me a location let me see many small holdings with power from Cpt to Malmesbury to Agter Paarl To Stellenbosch to ...  He must be very far away.

[Erastus 81]

3 hours ago, PeterP said:

The Hybrid will still require a battery to function during grid-outage - panels will give no power. The reason to start with Hybrid is to give you the option to add battery later instead of having to buy a new inverter once you decide to do so. The Hybrid will export and work while grid is up like Erastus system at a fractionally higher upfront cost but with the added benefit you can add battery at any time (which anyone with a grid-tie only system would ultimately love to have when there is loadshedding...)

During the day use a seed generator and solar panels will supply the rest as it is grid tied. Cost +/- R 1200 battery cost R380, At night I have a different type of backup power. It did not cost R25K.  ..  My total system inverter, panels, meter installation cost was R66K plus 3K for COC's. I already got 14K back since Nov and with the added 25c of COCT I simply don't see that it make sense to pay off a battery in 5 years and then its time to say bye bye ...

I been using batteries in Backups .... since 1981 Yes Lipoe is a bit better but .....

Its important to note. I do not have fancy load balance'rs and batt protectors and all that expensive stuff.  I have many batt backup system in the field my normal lead acid ... last on the average 5 years with Eskom outages....  The majority 7 - 8 years.  The ones you buy from First National Batteries. Those that cost R 1300 for 05A batt.

When its for load shedding and power outages you do it right they go a very long way....

I am not here to argu about best systems and batteries. I am currently R900 away from paying my total COCT account with grid tie and all I am tryng to do is to get people to think grid tie.

Financially its worth it and its less than 1/2 the cost of a battery system.

I am not here to bad moth Lipoe or any inverter simply to get people to think a little different.  I just moved a good friend of mine with a Mecer inverter and batteries to grid tied. I think he said it cost him R46K this month he will pay something like R120.

The beauty about grid tie is you can start with less. and build and expand

 

Edited February 19 by Erastus

[Kalahari Meerkat 15]

6 minutes ago, Erastus said:

Must be very far from Cape Town.  Inbox me a location let me see many small holdings with power from Cpt to Malmesbury to Agter Paarl To Stellenbosch to ...  He must be very far away.

Somewhere around St Helena Baai, that Eksdom are doing quoting should pretty much indicate that Cape Town does not cover this far out of town...

[Erastus 81]

Here is the difference.

The friend I moved from the Mecer system to grid tied paid R 85 000 for full system.  That is 5 years ago.  His batteries are shot and requires replacement. Only good enough for load shedding and that is what he is using it for. When asking  him if he got his money back in 5 years simple answer  ... "not at all"... was the response.

He saw my system and I helped him. He spend +/- R46000 and is already getting benefits from it and recons it will be paid in less than 2 years and with the new 25c incentive even earlier and lets see what is going to happen with the new pricing.

I recon that is the point I am trying to make that for less than 1/2 the cost a grid tie system will have a "bigger" impact than a battery based system.  If you disagree.  Put the figures on the table so I can see and understand please.  I was of the grid with batteries and .... Then I installed grid tie and never looked back again.

I still have my off grid system somewhere I just don't see fit to use it as it is way to expensive because of the battery costs.  Two years I ran on solar and batteries.  Will take a lot to let me go that way again. The additional 25c sealed it for me. I will only maintain my smaal standby systems where a batt costs R280 and lasts for 3 - 4 years.

 

[Brani 33]

21 minutes ago, Erastus said:

Here is the difference.

The friend I moved from the Mecer system to grid tied paid R 85 000 for full system.  That is 5 years ago.  His batteries are shot and requires replacement. Only good enough for load shedding and that is what he is using it for. When asking  him if he got his money back in 5 years simple answer  ... "not at all"... was the response.

He saw my system and I helped him. He spend +/- R46000 and is already getting benefits from it and recons it will be paid in less than 2 years and with the new 25c incentive even earlier and lets see what is going to happen with the new pricing.

I recon that is the point I am trying to make that for less than 1/2 the cost a grid tie system will have a "bigger" impact than a battery based system.  If you disagree.  Put the figures on the table so I can see and understand please.  I was of the grid with batteries and .... Then I installed grid tie and never looked back again.

I still have my off grid system somewhere I just don't see fit to use it as it is way to expensive because of the battery costs.  Two years I ran on solar and batteries.  Will take a lot to let me go that way again. The additional 25c sealed it for me. I will only maintain my smaal standby systems where a batt costs R280 and lasts for 3 - 4 years.

 

I had a look at your case and on my previous calculation I didn’t know that you have a sun tracking system which enables you to maximize your panels production. This alone makes a huge difference and puts you at distinct advantage over the majority of us who just drop the panels on the roof and hope for the best. 
I just don’t like the fact that they make you pay for the new meter and then buy and resell at more than double the price. And if after a year they penalize you for being a net generator, it really isn’t fair. I hope for your sake that doesn’t happen. Soon with your wind generators and maybe some small battery backup for worst case scenario, you can truly be off grid and close the tap on them. That would be worth celebrating.

in my case, after monitoring my system performance, in hindsight I would have gone with less panels and more battery. On a good day I’m off the grid, battery charged before 12 and on a bad day I need few kW from Eskom. More battery would have solved this for me.

There are many different approaches and each one needs to consider their needs and budget. 

 

 

[Pumba 1]

Where does one get these R280 batteries that last 3 years?

[Erastus 81]

6 hours ago, Brani said:

I had a look at your case and on my previous calculation I didn’t know that you have a sun tracking system which enables you to maximize your panels production. This alone makes a huge difference and puts you at distinct advantage over the majority of us who just drop the panels on the roof and hope for the best. 
I just don’t like the fact that they make you pay for the new meter and then buy and resell at more than double the price. And if after a year they penalize you for being a net generator, it really isn’t fair. I hope for your sake that doesn’t happen. Soon with your wind generators and maybe some small battery backup for worst case scenario, you can truly be off grid and close the tap on them. That would be worth celebrating.

in my case, after monitoring my system performance, in hindsight I would have gone with less panels and more battery. On a good day I’m off the grid, battery charged before 12 and on a bad day I need few kW from Eskom. More battery would have solved this for me.

There are many different approaches and each one needs to consider their needs and budget. 

 

 

The sun tracker had me in court for 5 years with 4 criminal charges from COCT against me. Eventually the judge understood the issues and I was found not guilty with an order against the COCT. Yes the tracker makes an enormous difference up to 55% difference in power from the same panels. Covid are slowing me down is some aspects but hope to increase the tracker soon with 5 more panels.

The meter is very expensive R11K  When I build my house I had one L & G installed @ R6K. I believe we pay a lot due to the limited knowledge of those working for the council.

One of the sore points I have RE solar is that people who sell it very seldom does not understand how to calculate and assist people like you properly. That area is very thin ice and was already "shouted" at so let me stay away from it. The council is currently "slowing" my building plans and they try every trick and law to stop me and  I am very sure that soon I will be able to get going then hopefully I can push my full contract into the grid.

What you should also understand I do my own software and stuff with my own style backup system.  Therefore if I see something that wastes kw I replace that part and that makes a huge difference in cost and performance.

[Erastus 81]

6 hours ago, Pumba said:

Where does one get these R280 batteries that last 3 years?

In short its not the battery that's the problem its how the battery gets used that's the difference.

[Richard Mackay 110]

On 2021/02/18 at 7:58 PM, Erastus said:

A new incentive

offset by the COCT as from 1 Feb.  It is R0.25 per Kwhr:
 

Please provide more info..

[MockTurtle 5]

just a suggestion. maybe blur out your home address from that utility statement. with id theft being a thing and all that. just sayin'.

[Muchachos 4]

12 hours ago, Erastus said:

Yes the tracker makes an enormous difference up to 55% difference in power from the same panels. Covid are slowing me down is some aspects but hope to increase the tracker soon with 5 more panels.

That is great efficiency. How do I get trackers installed at my house?

[Brani 33]

8 hours ago, Richard Mackay said:

Please provide more info..

https://resource.capetown.gov.za/documentcentre/Documents/Financial documents/Ann6_2020-21_Electricity_Generation_and_Distribution-Consumptive.pdf

[Brani 33]

12 hours ago, Erastus said:

In short its not the battery that's the problem its how the battery gets used that's the difference.

When you get 4 hour load shedding or Power off for extended period of time, there goes the battery for gate and garage motor. Unless you decide to jump over the gate, or manage it better. Thing of the past since we don’t go off any more.

[Brani 33]

12 hours ago, Erastus said:

One of the sore points I have RE solar is that people who sell it very seldom does not understand how to calculate and assist people like you properly.

That is very condescending. I have done my own calculations but had no solar tracker. My calculations are ok. 
Your base assumptions are based on what YOU pay for the stuff. You have to calculate the market value. If I had bought the solar kit that fell off the truck at 1/10th of the value, it will pay itself very quickly. So you reduced number of panels needed through writing your own software and spending how many hours on your own design. If you would put a market value for your Labour and engineering into your system, it’s very expensive. 
For ordinary guys like me, we have to take what’s available on the market and make the best out of it.

 

[Erastus 81]

4 hours ago, Brani said:

That is very condescending. I have done my own calculations but had no solar tracker. My calculations are ok. 
Your base assumptions are based on what YOU pay for the stuff. You have to calculate the market value. If I had bought the solar kit that fell off the truck at 1/10th of the value, it will pay itself very quickly. So you reduced number of panels needed through writing your own software and spending how many hours on your own design. If you would put a market value for your Labour and engineering into your system, it’s very expensive. 
For ordinary guys like me, we have to take what’s available on the market and make the best out of it.

 

Been developing software and designing electronics  for a few years. Took me 3 days to get my 6 phase meter going. I have many routines and many control software in libraries. KISS makes life very easy.

I help ordinary people and I do it for free.  If you been close I would have gladly helped. Just helped somebody he has 5Kw grid tied inverter and 10 panels he did the frame himself.  10x 3300 panels panels inverter cost less than  R19000. R700 for electrical COC and R3K for solar COC.

Brani I  do not have interest in making money from solar. The only interest I have is that more people should go on solar and less make use of Eskom & COCT and other gov organizations.  COCT kept me in court with 4 criminal cases on my solar panels for 5 years and then got a court order against them therefore if I can take $ away from them then I will help.

Maybe I should get my small backup system on the market for people to use but then I do not want to affect companies and maybe I should get my 3phase 10Kw inverter available so others can benefit from it too.  Will see this year for now I want to get my wind generator going as this combined with the inverter is a mean system  Last the 10K inverter cost 9K its designed to run at 99.5% power and then it is 99.2% efficient.

Nice thing is one can start with 3Kw then 6 then 10Kw.  It is a different approach and I compared it to a few recon cost per Kw not easily matched.
 

For now all I am doing is for those who wnats to start and see it as very costly there is a less expensive way. I do not want to crit any make system batt cable cable tie ....

Only people should understand there are less money demanding systems.  I use Lipoe batt myself and they are very good but for Eskom outage its hard to beat a 105Z deep cycle battery on ROI

Please do see it not as attacking any system but simply one to safe get connected with grid tie

 

Edited February 20 by Erastus

[Erastus 81]

7 hours ago, MockTurtle said:

just a suggestion. maybe blur out your home address from that utility statement. with id theft being a thing and all that. just sayin'.

Thanks I saw it to late and can't edit it ....

[Erastus 81]

On 2021/02/20 at 3:21 PM, Muchachos said:

That is great efficiency. How do I get trackers installed at my house?

They work very well. I did my own unit.  Very efficient
 

 

Edited February 21 by Erastus

[Richard Mackay 110]

On 2021/02/18 at 7:58 PM, Erastus said:

A new incentive

offset by the COCT as from 1 Feb.  It is R0.25 per Kwhr:
 

I have tried to understand this account but have not succeeded.

So 296 kWh was consumed and billed at R1.84 per kWh 

Is the 1326 kWh what was fed back into the grid (Generation Offset?)

What is the Generation Offset Incentive and how was the 568 kWh arrived at??  

 

[Erastus 81]

24 minutes ago, Richard Mackay said:

I have tried to understand this account but have not succeeded.

So 296 kWh was consumed and billed at R1.84 per kWh 

Is the 1326 kWh what was fed back into the grid (Generation Offset?)

What is the Generation Offset Incentive and how was the 568 kWh arrived at??  

 

If you look at the 1326 Kwh  that is from Jan 16  to Feb 12

The 568 is 25c incentive as from 1 Feb to 12 Feb. 12 day I put back 568Kwhr.

[Richard Mackay 110]

12 hours ago, Erastus said:

If you look at the 1326 Kwh  that is from Jan 16  to Feb 12

The 568 is 25c incentive as from 1 Feb to 12 Feb. 12 day I put back 568Kwhr.

Strange billing!

So what is the difference between Generation offset and Generation offset incentive??

[Erastus 81]

15 hours ago, Richard Mackay said:

I have tried to understand this account but have not succeeded.

So 296 kWh was consumed and billed at R1.84 per kWh 

Is the 1326 kWh what was fed back into the grid (Generation Offset?)

What is the Generation Offset Incentive and how was the 568 kWh arrived at??  

 

The amounts is as follows:

Service Levey            R226.36
295.80 @ R1.83..       R543.66  my usage when there is no sun
1326.02 @ R0.73      -R971.18   My total Kwhr I put back from 16/01/2021 to 12/022021 
586.29   @ R0.25c   -R142.07   An additional incentive for us to feed back into the COCT network as from 1 02  - 12/02/2021

Gives me back -R343.23 for the current month.  Let me give you  my Feb spread sheet:

Feb	R Flux		Import Kwhr	Export Kwhr	R Import	R Export	Nett R X.xx	R Total	Follow The Sun	Zero Line
1	61.100	17.816	12.517	-43.284	R 23.02	R-42.52	R-19.50	R-19.50	30.767	0
2	70.000	20.859	8.746	-49.141	R 16.09	R-48.27	R-32.18	R-51.68	40.395	0
3	74.700	17.216	11.956	-57.484	R 21.99	R-56.47	R-34.48	R-86.16	45.528	0
4	73.100	25.471	11.186	-47.629	R 20.57	R-46.79	R-26.21	R-112.37	36.443	0
5	73.100	22.469	10.321	-50.631	R 18.98	R-49.73	R-30.75	R-143.12	40.310	0
6	70.200	18.590	9.102	-51.610	R 16.74	R-50.70	R-33.96	R-177.07	42.508	0
7	72.900	18.912	10.543	-53.988	R 19.39	R-53.03	R-33.64	R-210.71	43.445	0
8	73.000	22.862	10.857	-50.138	R 19.97	R-49.25	R-29.28	R-240.00	39.281	0
9	72.500	22.467	7.938	-50.033	R 14.60	R-49.15	R-34.55	R-274.54	42.095	0
10	55.600	17.314	11.431	-38.286	R 21.03	R-37.61	R-16.58	R-291.13	26.855	0
11	70.600	21.550	10.973	-49.050	R 20.18	R-48.18	R-28.00	R-319.13	38.077	0
12	57.500	17.194	13.892	-40.306	R 25.55	R-39.59	R-14.04	R-333.17	26.414	0
13	69.500	18.990	10.210	-50.510	R 18.78	R-49.62	R-30.84	R-364.00	40.300	0
14	43.400	17.051	11.270	-26.349	R 20.73	R-25.88	R-5.15	R-369.16	15.079	0
15	64.400	21.508	11.822	-42.892	R 21.74	R-42.13	R-20.39	R-389.55	31.070	0
16	70.200	25.293	10.360	-44.907	R 19.06	R-44.11	R-25.06	R-414.60	34.547	0
17	70.200	20.676	12.480	-49.524	R 22.95	R-48.65	R-25.69	R-440.30	37.044	0
18	54.700	20.507	17.869	-34.193	R 32.87	R-33.59	R-0.72	R-441.02	16.324	0
19	69.500	24.079	11.052	-45.421	R 20.33	R-44.62	R-24.29	R-465.31	34.369	0
20	64.200	17.995	12.904	-46.205	R 23.73	R-45.39	R-21.65	R-486.96	33.301	0
21	64.800	18.968	10.416	-45.832	R 19.16	R-45.02	R-25.86	R-512.82	35.416	0
22	0.000	0.000	0.000	0.000	R 0.00	R 0.00	R 0.00	R-512.82	0.000	0
23	0.000	0.000	0.000	0.000	R 0.00	R 0.00	R 0.00	R-512.82	0.000	0
24	0.000	0.000	0.000	0.000	R 0.00	R 0.00	R 0.00	R-512.82	0.000	0
25	0.000	0.000	0.000	0.000	R 0.00	R 0.00	R 0.00	R-512.82	0.000	0
26	0.000	0.000	0.000	0.000	R 0.00	R 0.00	R 0.00	R-512.82	0.000	0
27	0.000	0.000	0.000	0.000	R 0.00	R 0.00	R 0.00	R-512.82	0.000	0
28	0.000	0.000	0.000	0.000	R 0.00	R 0.00	R 0.00	R-512.82	0.000	0
	1,395.200	406.000	237.845	-967.413	R 437.47	R-950.29	R-512.82		729.568
	69.760			-729.568		R-47.51	R-716.65
	1,953.280			406.741			R 1,341.89
	No Batteries
	237.845	967.413	0
	237.845	-967.413
11.89	249.737	-1,015.784	-48.37
	487.582	-1,983.197	0
			0
	import	export	28
	487.58	-1983.20	20
Markup %	Kwh Usage	-1,495.614	21
187.24	R 1.84	R 0.98	R 0.73
	R 896.81	R-1,948.09	R 0.25
R 478.95	356.1	R-1,051.28
		R-716.65
	Cost	R-1,051.28	R-1,469.14

[Erastus 81]

On 2021/02/19 at 8:00 AM, PeterP said:

Grid Tied Inverter - which has to switch off when grid is down. I like your example, but would recommend setting up with a Hybrid inverter if the feed-in is attractive in your area as this can be expanded to work when grid is down (only requires battery).

 

Most people going solar, do so to be loadshedding proof - I offer the grid-tie version but once it's clear it has to switch off when grid is down it's mostly a non-starter

Not true.  To save.  I do not have expensive batteries etc.  My solar panels and inverter cost me less than 2 batteries.  As from 22 Oct till 15 Feb I saved R14 400 hard cash that I should have paid the council and that with all the load shedding.

You can not beat this configuration

 

Edited February 22 by Erastus

[Erastus 81]

On 2021/02/21 at 7:31 PM, Richard Mackay said:

 

The difference tracker versus no tracker:

[PeterP 32]

19 hours ago, Erastus said:

Not true.  To save.  I do not have expensive batteries etc.  My solar panels and inverter cost me less than 2 batteries.  As from 22 Oct till 15 Feb I saved R14 400 hard cash that I should have paid the council and that with all the load shedding.

You can not beat this configuration

 

You are currently making good return and your system will have a very high IRR, but it seems you are exporting more than what the CoCT SSEG system allows for (ie you are not currently a net consumer). Net consumer is calculated on annual consumption and production so you might still be ok once winter is taken into consideration, but seeing your impressive tracker results, I'm not sure

You are missing my point about having the option to add batteries, of course it will be more expensive and thus IRR will be potentially reduced but batteries are all about having power when Eskom can't supply - for most people (not you), eliminating loadshedding, is as important as the ROI. On a small residential system the Hybrid inverter may add R10K up-front, but then you are at least able to add batteries at a later point if the feed-in tariff is reduced (or eliminated) - or loadshedding ramps up even more.

One of the main problems with CoCT SSEG feed-in system is that you are effectively entering into a 1 year contract with the City on your 20-25 year solar investment. The monthly SSEG connection fee, tariff and feed-in tariff are changed annually which means your system IRR is very vulnerable, especially if it is dependent on the feed-in, to achieve savings (eg. City may only offer R0.33/kWh feed-in next year or R0.10/kWh or none at all.....). The R0.25/kWh incentive is for first year only and may not even apply to systems added in future years. If CoCT would offer a feed-in deal fixed for 5 years then we'd be able to do our sums and make much more informed decisions.

With a self-consumption battery system you will fix your R/kWh rate for life of system (currently R1 - R1.50/kWh) so it's a bit easier to work out the IRR as the Eskom kWh tariff historically has only ever gone up. Feed-in tariffs world-wide have mostly been coming down.

Currently, hybrid battery system in Cape Town expected pay-back is 5-8 years, grid-tie SSEG can be as low as 3-4 years (but no grid - no worky).