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PylonTech US3000C 3.5kWh Lithium-ion Batteries with Axpert MKS 5Kw inverter


Sass

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Hello all and Coulomb

 

I have 2 Axpert inverters supplying a system. The power are split and balanced for the flooded Excide batteries we use at the moment. Thing is these batteries seems to be going one after the other.

I am considering 7 Pylontech US3000C used as follows:

3X batteries on the one Axpert inverter with lighter usage

4x batteries on the other Axpert inverter with higher usage and critical full time supply

A few questions.

1. Are these inverters compatible with Li-Ion batteries? I note that when selecting battery type there are three options. Flooded, AGM and USER DEFINED

2. One inverter is powered with 12x JE 330W panels (the one with lighter usage) and one inverter is powered with 12x Canadian Solar 245W panels. Would this type of connection be useable with Li-Ion?

The VOC on both inverters are 145V and the array voltage 72V both. Will this affect the batteries in any negative way?

Any other advice?

 

Thanking you all!

 

 

 

 

 

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12 hours ago, Sass said:

Hello all and Coulomb

Hi. But am I not part of "all"? 😊

12 hours ago, Sass said:

I have 2 Axpert inverters supplying a system. The power are split and balanced for the flooded Excide batteries we use at the moment.

So not paralleled then?

12 hours ago, Sass said:

Thing is these batteries seems to be going one after the other.

Are they proper deep cycle battery modules?

12 hours ago, Sass said:

1. Are these inverters compatible with Li-Ion batteries? I note that when selecting battery type there are three options. Flooded, AGM and USER DEFINED

Yes. You would use the user defined settings.

12 hours ago, Sass said:

2. One inverter is powered with 12x JE 330W panels (the one with lighter usage) and one inverter is powered with 12x Canadian Solar 245W panels. Would this type of connection be useable with Li-Ion?

Yes, no problem.

12 hours ago, Sass said:

The VOC on both inverters are 145V and the array voltage 72V both. Will this affect the batteries in any negative way?

That's fine. I assume they're connected 2S.

12 hours ago, Sass said:

Any other advice?

You should search this forum for the settings that specify 52.5V for the absorb / bulk setting. 53.2V or higher will lead to trouble.

Consider reflashing the inverter firmwares with patched firmware, LFP flavour. It might be that if you used the lead acid flavour of patched firmware (fixing the premature float bugs), you might have had better life from the old battery. The LFP patched firmware manages LFP batteries better, removing some lead acid assumptions.

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  • 3 weeks later...

@Coulomb Thank you for your input and assistance so far.

Today I connected the PylonTech batteries to my MKS PF 5K inverter and followed the PylonTech battery start up procedure.

I also set the inverter settings as per the recommended settings by PylonTech.

System started up well and no problems. I let the batteries run on charge the whole day and switched over to this system using the changeover switch.

After a while I went back to look if everything was still fine, and I must say, thusfar the 6 battery units are not depleting fast. These have run for 5 hours now and still show 80%

However, the inverter has an error which I cannot cancel. It is displaying E4, flashing and with a beeping sound.

I do not find this error listed in my manual.

Do you have any idea what is the cause of this error?

I wish to point out that I do not have a comms cable from the batteries connected to the inverter,and I suspect this error is triggered as the inverter is unable to read the battery voltage.

I am aware that the Axpert voltage tracking is not very accurate, and do not know whether I would be safe to plug the RJ45 cable from the PylonTech comms port to the Axpert.

If I did use this comms cable, would I get a better idea of the voltages? I do not want to damage the inverter nor the batteries simply doing this if this is unsafe and I do not find any documented case if this cable could be connected between the two devices.

How do I go about this?

Thanks once again

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10 hours ago, Sass said:

I also set the inverter settings as per the recommended settings by PylonTech.

Err, the manufacturer is wrong. What would they know? 😉 Coulomb and many members here say "use 52.5 V!"  🙂

More seriously, they know how to eek the last coulomb from the battery, but not how to connect to inexpensive inverters that overshoot badly.

Quote

However, the inverter has an error which I cannot cancel. It is displaying E4, flashing and with a beeping sound.

It is perhaps Eq, the Equalisation warning? The lower-case 'q' looks like a '4' but with the top segment on. Note the difference between a warning, with the (warning) symbol next to the code, and the ERROR icon. But with flashing and beeping, that sure sounds like an error.

1994668420_Equalisationwarning2.png.e92fcd35f48085e89d9b96d38135714d.png

Quote

Do you have any idea what is the cause of this error?

If it's not the equalisation warning, no.

Quote

I wish to point out that I do not have a comms cable from the batteries connected to the inverter,and I suspect this error is triggered as the inverter is unable to read the battery voltage.

I'm confused by your model; if it's an Axpert MKS PF1 (or PF1.0), then no, you can't connect a cable from the inverter to the battery's BMS. They don't have the firmware for it. The only models that can use this sort of cable are the ones with the removable display (Axpert King, Axpert VM III, Axpert Max, and recently the Axpert MKS III). Ah, is yours perhaps an MKS III with a removable display? These don't even appear on the Voltronic Power website, last I looked.

Quote

I am aware that the Axpert voltage tracking is not very accurate,

Actually, the battery voltage measurement is usually fine, it's their SOC reading that is terrible for LFP batteries.

Quote

If I did use this comms cable, would I get a better idea of the voltages?

No. But you can purchase ICC and have it connect to the battery BMS, and then ICC will know the battery's SOC accurately. It can then switch the Axpert from line to battery mode and vice versa at accurate SOC percentages.

 

Edited by Coulomb
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Hi @Coulombthank you for the reply.

 

I am a bit confused. You said "

Err, the manufacturer is wrong. What would they know? 😉 Coulomb and many members here say "use 52.5 V!"  🙂

More seriously, they know how to eek the last coulomb from the battery, but not how to connect to inexpensive inverters that overshoot badly."

Which setting number would that 52.5V apply to?

Sorry, my mistake. It is an Axpert MKS 5KVA inverter. Will a comms cable help me?

 

I am considering the ICC package but I have a Pi and am tying to establish what I should do with the software once loaded on the Pi. Anyhow I just need a way to see that everything is 100%

The E4 error was definitely E4 and not EQ. I turned that off before usine the PylonTech. It seems this error was because the batteries was not fully charged. It has gone now.

 

Regards

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Sass said:

You said "

Err, the manufacturer is wrong. What would they know? Coulomb and many members here say "use 52.5 V!"  

More seriously, they know how to eek the last coulomb from the battery, but not how to connect to inexpensive inverters that overshoot badly."

Which setting number would that 52.5V apply to?

The highest voltage setting, setting 26, absorb/bulk battery voltage.

I also recommend reducing the float voltage (setting 27), to 51.8 V.

3 hours ago, Sass said:

Sorry, my mistake. It is an Axpert MKS 5KVA inverter. Will a comms cable help me?

You can't connect from the inverter to the battery BMS, no. You can still use the appropriate cable to a Pi running ICC or other monitoring software.

3 hours ago, Sass said:

I am considering the ICC package but I have a Pi and am tying to establish what I should do with the software once loaded on the Pi. Anyhow I just need a way to see that everything is 100%

ICC really will give you better control, since switching from battery to/from grid will be at precise SOC percentages, not battery voltages, which only approximately relate to SOC. Once set up, you don't have to look at the pretty graphs if you don't want to.

If you just want to check that all is well, one of the free monitoring programs might be more appropriate. I don't know if any of those connect to BMS, though.

3 hours ago, Sass said:

The E4 error was definitely E4 and not EQ. I turned that off before usine the PylonTech. It seems this error was because the batteries was not fully charged. It has gone now.

Weird. I've never seen that error before.

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Hello @Coulomb

With your assistance I set the inverter to work with the batteries. Thanks for that.

Now I have a different issue.

For the last few days the system worked well until yesterday. 

When I switch everything on, the batteries wakes up the inverter. There are no error and no alarm.

Yet, I do not have 230V output!!

I have checked the wiring, reset the inverter, reset the batteries, disconnected and reconnected everything, tested all voltages from the PV input to the AC output.

In the past I could reset the system with the lead acid batteries and it would work with no problem.

However, this is new to me. After running strong for two years with no issues, what may be the matter?

It's an Axpert MKS 5KVA inverter.

Do you have a solution please?

 

Thank you

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8 hours ago, Sass said:

Yet, I do not have 230V output!!

Do you have arrows pointing to the load icon (compact fluoro bulb or IEC socket) on the LC Display?

You said you checked all inputs and outputs, I assume  that means you see 220ish volts at the AC-in terminals, but nothing at the AC-out terminals?

What output voltage does the inverter report? (Use the up and down buttons till you see a number at the right or bottom with "OUTPUT" and "V" showing.

What battery voltage does the inverter report? (A number at the left or top with "BATT" and "V" showing).

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Thank you @Coulomb. All it was is the inverter would not wake up unless there was sufficient solar radiation. So as soon as the minimum input voltage was reached the inverter connected at once. 

All is working well at the moment.

Today I received an ICC Raspberry kit to manage the batteries properly.

1. Is there any explanation on the correct connection between the Pylontech to Raspberry, for which I do have a cable as well? What I don't understand is where do I connect the Pylontech BMS cable to the batteries and

2. how to I connect the Axpert MKS 5K inverter to the Raspberry and

3. is there any specific settings on the Raspberry that I need to enter to ensure it connects to both the Pylontech batteries and to the inverter in the software?

 

Thanks kindly

 

Regards

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 2021/04/08 at 12:56 PM, Sass said:

Thank you @Coulomb. All it was is the inverter would not wake up unless there was sufficient solar radiation. So as soon as the minimum input voltage was reached the inverter connected at once. 

All is working well at the moment.

Today I received an ICC Raspberry kit to manage the batteries properly.

1. Is there any explanation on the correct connection between the Pylontech to Raspberry, for which I do have a cable as well? What I don't understand is where do I connect the Pylontech BMS cable to the batteries and

2. how to I connect the Axpert MKS 5K inverter to the Raspberry and

3. is there any specific settings on the Raspberry that I need to enter to ensure it connects to both the Pylontech batteries and to the inverter in the software?

 

Thanks kindly

 

Regards

Did you get the RP with the special cable, and do you have your USB cable to the Axpert inverter, also don't forget to go into settings in the ICC and make the software control the pylontech, this ignores anything from your inverter.

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  • 2 weeks later...

@Coulomb perhaps you can assist me with another question please?

The Axpert PF08 that I have that is similar to yours does not display any mode to do battery equalisation. Is this something I have to set up or is this feature not included in this inverter?

Is there a way around this?

Thank you!

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10 hours ago, Sass said:

The Axpert PF08 that I have that is similar to yours does not display any mode to do battery equalisation. Is this something I have to set up or is this feature not included in this inverter?

There is no equalisation in any firmware designed for PF0.8 models, as far as I know.

10 hours ago, Sass said:

Is there a way around this?

The equalisation implemented in the Axpert inverter firmware is a simple over-charge, designed for flooded lead-acid batteries. The cells that are low get charged; the ones that are already full boil away some of their water, which gets replaced next time the cells get watered. (The acid stays behind, only the H₂ and O₂ from the water get evolved as gases). This is not something you want to do with lithium batteries. It's handy to use it for another purpose (working around the premature float bug), but there is fully patched firmware for that purpose. So you don't need it. Your battery's BMS should be performing equalisation (of a much different and gentler kind) already.

If you really wanted equalisation, a few people have updated their firmware on PF0.8 machines to 74.XX, which is PF1 firmware (58.4 V, not 64 V). This turns your machine into a "PF1" model, meaning that the firmware won't protect against loads between 4 and 5 k W. My understanding is that they replace the semiconductors (pretty much all of them except for the 4 inverter IGBTs) with higher specification parts in the PF1 models. Unless you do this to your PF0.8 machine(s), and it's a lot of work, PF1 firmware in a PF0.8 machine is extremely risky. I would not attempt it.

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Thank you @Coulomb. I think I will change my system and use the MKS inverter with the lead acid batteries and the PF08 inverter with the PylonTech batteries in that case. That should not be any problem, should it?

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On 2021/04/30 at 6:23 AM, Sass said:

I think I will change my system and use the MKS inverter with the lead acid batteries and the PF08 inverter with the PylonTech batteries in that case. That should not be any problem, should it?

As long as the Axpert MKS has equalisation, assuming that they need it, yes.

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 2021/04/29 at 5:24 AM, Coulomb said:

There is no equalisation in any firmware designed for PF0.8 models, as far as I know.

The equalisation implemented in the Axpert inverter firmware is a simple over-charge, designed for flooded lead-acid batteries. The cells that are low get charged; the ones that are already full boil away some of their water, which gets replaced next time the cells get watered. (The acid stays behind, only the H₂ and O₂ from the water get evolved as gases). This is not something you want to do with lithium batteries. It's handy to use it for another purpose (working around the premature float bug), but there is fully patched firmware for that purpose. So you don't need it. Your battery's BMS should be performing equalisation (of a much different and gentler kind) already.

If you really wanted equalisation, a few people have updated their firmware on PF0.8 machines to 74.XX, which is PF1 firmware (58.4 V, not 64 V). This turns your machine into a "PF1" model, meaning that the firmware won't protect against loads between 4 and 5 k W. My understanding is that they replace the semiconductors (pretty much all of them except for the 4 inverter IGBTs) with higher specification parts in the PF1 models. Unless you do this to your PF0.8 machine(s), and it's a lot of work, PF1 firmware in a PF0.8 machine is extremely risky. I would not attempt it.

Thanks @Coulomb. If you say you would not attempt it, I won't. The battery banks on this inverter does not have BMS. In fact, I have installed 3 Victron Battery Balancers to ensure equal load balancing but I am stuffed. Totally unable to get the one one battery balancer to function. It does not even turn on. I have done wiring according to Victron recommendations but there is no way. If I shuffle the three around then one won't work, and it is always the one in the middle. That tells me there is no product failure issue. Either I am doing it wrong, or the Victron installation diagram is wrong. I wonder just what the heck I am doing wrong?

Best regards

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