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Deye 5K during Load shedding without a battery


Atmosphere
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Hi, is it possible to have this inverter supply load from PV while the grid is off such as in loadshedding? (I don't have a battery installed, only grid tied) 

 

How do I get to that setting? 

 

Tia! 

Edited by Atmosphere
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59 minutes ago, Atmosphere said:

Hi, is it possible to have this inverter supply load from PV while the grid is off such as in loadshedding? (I don't have a battery installed, only grid tied) 

 

How do I get to that setting? 

 

Tia! 

Not possible without batteries. 

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16 hours ago, Atmosphere said:

Hi, is it possible to have this inverter supply load from PV while the grid is off such as in loadshedding? (I don't have a battery installed, only grid tied) 

 

How do I get to that setting? 

 

Tia! 

You need a battery. Consider getting a small, relatively inexpensive one, like a Hubble AM-3.

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Another option is a generator instead of a battery. 

You need something that the inverter can use to regulate the solar coming in. 

A 5kW generator should work on the aux input. You will experience a delay as the generator takes longer to switch on if load shedding kicks in. Just make sure you get one that the inverter can send the gen start signal to. 

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7 hours ago, Atmosphere said:

Thanks

I didn't want to get batteries yet, but was considering Pylontech. 

If you had a deye/sunsynk and had to start from scratch, which brand would you choose? 

 

(I was hoping for wall mount... Simplest install near the inverter) 

I have 3x US3000Bs with my 5K Sunsynk, they work well, but if I did my install over today, I would have gone for Hubble AM-2s or BSL BATT (Bulls) battery. They have far higher charge / discharge rates than the Pylontech US series, clearly a superior product. And yes, the AM-2 and AM-3 are wall mount.

Edited by YellowTapemeasure
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And here is my little 5K Sunsynk charging my 3x Pylontech (0.5C) batteries today, 5247 Watts total including load, battery charge at 92 plus amps. If I only had one Pylontech, it would have been restricted to 37 amps, (1776W) max.

Hubble's AM-2 and AM-3 are 1C batteries, able to charge and discharge at far greater rates than Pylontech's US series. 

 

IMG_20210523_110225.jpg

Edited by YellowTapemeasure
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Just now, YellowTapemeasure said:

And here is my little 5K Sunsynk charging my 3x Pylontech (0.5C) batteries today, 5247 Watts at 92 plus amps. If I only had one Pylontech, it would have been restricted to 37 amps, (1776W) max.

Hubble's AM-2 and AM-3 are 1C batteries, able to charge and discharge at far greater rates than Pylontech's US series. 

 

IMG_20210523_110225.jpg

Nice explanation. Too bad some won’t want to understand what you mean. 

Hubble’s BMS is rated at 125A. Cells can easily deliver 150A however it’s limited to 100A. For this to be achieved, all internals have to handle this high current draw so thicker connectors, cabling etc etc. In other words, better quality internals.

The average individual doesn’t know when the grid is down and they often switch on a kettle and a microwave together and any 5kwh 0.5C battery’s BMS will shut it down and place the inverter in fault mode. Seen it all too often. But hey, you can always just add more Pylontechs provided your budget allows it. 

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1 hour ago, Atmosphere said:

Thanks

I didn't want to get batteries yet, but was considering Pylontech. 

If you had a deye/sunsynk and had to start from scratch, which brand would you choose? 

 

(I was hoping for wall mount... Simplest install near the inverter) 

I would Not Choose Pylontech too many horror stories on battery failure and warranty problems in the past couple of Months besides you require a lot of them in parallel to cover the warranty and a whole host of requirements that could possibly make your warranty void like no Coms No Earthing on the battery case etc 

You have other options Like BSLB pretty stable good battery with not too many complications Claims 6000 Cycles @80 %  also claims to be 1C, Revov if you dont mind used EV batteries Freedom Won is also a option very pricey and only gives 4000 cycles @80% afaik Blue Nova however they have some issues with their BMS so Does Revov the other option is Hubble Lithium also a great option no negative things about the battery 1C @100% DOD Good after sales support (local) not fussy when it comes the warranty and then you have Solar MD not Crazy about it personally looks to home made and Shoto .5C Battery and so on and so forth but I personally have the Hubble Lithium AM2 batteries and I am very pleased with their performance.

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Warranty Returns that clients do not get their warranty honored because the batteries where over discharged once (other Suppliers honor their warranties if the batteries were over discharged) BMS Failure if US3000C Batteries were discharged above maximum continuous discharge Client has to foot the bill for the BMS repair and the warranty on the battery becomes void Warranty becomes void if there was no Communication between the battery and the inverter Like with older Axpert based installations almost none of the other manufacturers require coms between the battery and the inverter Warranty is void if you don't have the Recommended amount of Pylontech batteries in your installation and so the list goes on there is a lot more reasons why I dislike the battery the fact that they claim it is a 1c Battery but it is not Their new US5000 only has a 5 year warranty with tons of terms and conditions with relatively bad cycle life and specs also not a true 1C battery The fact that the battery still uses old LFP Technology I can go on but I think those are good reasons.

 

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1 hour ago, Boerseun said:

The fact that the battery still uses old LFP Technology

@Boerseun: What on earth is "old LFP Technology"?  To the best of my knowledge all the mainstream batteries use LiFePo4 chemistry.  Whether you call this old or new surely does not matter.  What does matter is that the batteries perform very well in independent tests.

1 hour ago, Boerseun said:

clients do not get their warranty honored because the batteries where over discharged once

The BMS shuts the battery down when it gets to the limit.  How do you "over discharge" it?

 

1 hour ago, Boerseun said:

they claim it is a 1c Battery but it is not

"they claim it is a 1c" Actually they recommend 0.5C for continuous discharge.

(Below a bit of my US3000B specification.)

Recommend Charge/Discharge Current (A) 37
Max. Charge/Discharge Current (A) 74
Peak Charge/Discharge Current (A) [email protected]

"but it is not" - and you know this how? 

1 hour ago, Boerseun said:

Warranty becomes void if there was no Communication between the battery and the inverter Like with older Axpert based installations

Very odd, given that there are official Pylontech documents that gives settings to use with these older Voltronics inverters.  Also, I find no mention of this "condition" in the actual warranty documents.

I could go on, but it seems to me that you have access to some alternative facts that I do not have.  Perhaps you can share the source(s) of your information?

BTW you did not mention the one thing about them that I find really annoying: the fact that the BMS's SOC is useless between 89 and 100%.  This can lead to real issues.

Edited by Calvin
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Pylontech is actually a seven year warranty and you get three more years upon registering with the manufacturer ( will say that why not just start out with a 10 year warranty.

Edited by Tariq
.
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13 minutes ago, Calvin said:

What on earth is "old LFP Technology"?  To the best of my knowledge all the mainstream batteries use LiFePo4 chemistry.  Whether you call this old or new surely does not matter.  What does matter is that the batteries perform very well in independent tests.

What is an NMC battery? In short, NMC batteries offer a combination of Nickel, Manganese and Cobalt. They are sometimes known as Lithium Manganese Cobalt Oxide batteries. NMC batteries have a high specific energy or power. (IE Smaller Size) 

A lithium-ion battery usually uses lithium cobalt dioxide (LiCoO2) or lithium manganese oxide (LiMn2O4) as the cathode. Whereas, a lithium-iron battery, or a lithium-iron-phosphate battery, is typically made with lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4) as the cathode.

Lithium iron phosphate (LFP), lithium nickel manganese cobalt oxide (NMC), lithium nickel cobalt aluminum (NCA), and lithium cobalt oxide (LCO) are the preferred battery chemistries for EV applications due to their distinguishing properties, namely, relatively high-energy densities and safety features.

The NMC Tech is what Money is being spent on now for development in the EV industry. PS Courtesy of google 

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20 minutes ago, Boerseun said:

The NMC Tech is what Money is being spent on now for development in the EV industry

That I am aware of.  I thought we were talking about solar Energy Storage Systems here, where energy density is not much of an issue.

It is still not clear to me why you dislike Pylons because they "still uses old LFP Technology" - it is the same as your beloved Hubble I believe?

Edited by Calvin
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30 minutes ago, Boerseun said:

Smaller Size

Since we're mostly interested in home power storage, hopefully recharged by solar, the size is less important, since most people are replacing or opting for LiFePO4's over lead acid variants and guess what? over the lead acid's we have significantly smaller size and weight in the LiFePO4's.

Who is using NMC's for solar energy storage? Personally I will end up with LTO for my energy storage, but one should probably look at what else is out there and being peddled...

As for the Pylontech story, nee wat, only because they were one of the first on the market with significant market share do scare stories make the rounds, provide actual documented proof else treat these night time campfire scare stories as exactly what they are, a good yarn, but no truth to them...

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54 minutes ago, Tariq said:

Pylontech is actually a seven year warranty and you get three more years upon registering with the manufacturer ( will say that why not just start out with a 10 year warranty.

Hi Tariq.

Pylontech UP5000 unfortunately only has a 5 year warranty. 

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As snippeted from here...

Lithium Cobalt (LiCoO2) — LCO
3.60V nominal; typical operating range 3.0–4.2V/cell
Specific energy (capacity) 150–200Wh/kg. Specialty cells provide up to 240Wh/kg.
Charge (C-rate) 0.7–1C, charges to 4.20V (most cells); 3h charge typical. Charge current above 1C shortens battery life.
Discharge (C-rate) 1C; 2.50V cut off. Discharge current above 1C shortens battery life.
Cycle life 500–1000, related to depth of discharge, load, temperature
Comments Very high specific energy, limited specific power. Cobalt is expensive. Serves as Energy Cell. Market share has stabilized.
2019 update: Early version; no longer relevant.

Lithium Manganese (LiMn2O4) — LMO
3.70V (3.80V) nominal; typical operating range 3.0–4.2V/cell
Specific energy (capacity) 100–150Wh/kg
Charge (C-rate) 0.7–1C typical, 3C maximum
Discharge (C-rate) 1C; 10C possible with some cells, 30C pulse (5s)
Cycle life 300–700 (related to depth of discharge, temperature)
Comments High power but less capacity; safer than Li-cobalt; commonly mixed with NMC to improve performance.
2019 update: Less relevant now; limited growth potential.

Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt (LiNiMnCoO2) — NMC
3.60V, 3.70V nominal; typical operating range 3.0–4.2V/cell, or higher
Specific energy (capacity) 150–220Wh/kg
Charge (C-rate) 0.7–1C, charges to 4.20V, some go to 4.30V; 3h charge typical. Charge current above 1C shortens battery life.
Discharge (C-rate) 1C; 2C possible on some cells; 2.50V cut-off
Cycle life 1000–2000 (related to depth of discharge, temperature)
Comments Provides high capacity and high power. Serves as Hybrid Cell. Favorite chemistry for many uses; market share is increasing.
2019 update: Leading system; dominant cathode chemistry.

Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4) — LFP
3.20, 3.30V nominal; typical operating range 2.5–3.65V/cell
Specific energy (capacity) 90–120Wh/kg
Charge (C-rate) 1C typical, charges to 3.65V; 3h charge time typical
Discharge (C-rate) 1C, 25C on some cells; 40A pulse (2s); 2.50V cut-off (lower that 2V causes damage)
Cycle life 2000 and higher (related to depth of discharge, temperature)
Comments Very flat voltage discharge curve but low capacity. One of safest Li-ions. Used for special markets. Elevated self-discharge.
2019 update: Used primarily for energy storage, moderate growth.

Lithium Nickel Cobalt Aluminum (LiNiCoAlO2) — NCA
3.60V nominal; typical operating range 3.0–4.2V/cell
Specific energy (capacity) 200-260Wh/kg; 300Wh/kg predictable
Charge (C-rate) 0.7C, charges to 4.20V (most cells), 3h charge typical, fast charge possible with some cells
Discharge (C-rate) 1C typical; 3.00V cut-off; high discharge rate shortens battery life
Cycle life 500 (related to depth of discharge, temperature)
Comments Shares similarities with Li-cobalt. Serves as Energy Cell.
2019 update: Mainly used by Panasonic and Tesla; growth potential.

Lithium Titanate (Li2TiO3) — LTO
2.40V nominal; typical operating range 1.8–2.85V/cell
Specific energy (capacity) 50–80Wh/kg
Charge (C-rate) 1C typical; 5C maximum, charges to 2.85V
Discharge (C-rate)  10C possible, 30C 5s pulse; 1.80V cut-off  on LCO/LTO
Cycle life 3,000–7,000
Comments Long life, fast charge, wide temperature range but low specific energy and expensive. Among safest Li-ion batteries.
2019 update: Ability to ultra-fast charge; high cost limits to special application.

Cycle life seems quite poor one some, like NCA, lets hope they can tweak the chemistry to up those numbers some...

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1 hour ago, Calvin said:

That I am aware of.  I thought we were talking about solar Energy Storage Systems here, where energy density is not much of an issue.

It is still not clear to me why you dislike Pylons because they "still uses old LFP Technology" - it is the same as your beloved Hubble I believe?

I think he is also referring to the beloved BSL

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3 hours ago, Calvin said:

That I am aware of.  I thought we were talking about solar Energy Storage Systems here, where energy density is not much of an issue.

It is still not clear to me why you dislike Pylons because they "still uses old LFP Technology" - it is the same as your beloved Hubble I believe?

Hubble AM2 Uses New BYD NMC Cells 😂 But stick to what you believe in its my opinion and you can have yours Bud 

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18 minutes ago, Boerseun said:

Hubble AM2 Uses New BYD NMC Cells

Fair enough, I did not know that.  My knowledge is expanded, thanks.🙂

Any chance of expanding my knowledge further by answering any of the questions I asked earlier?

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5 minutes ago, Brani said:

According to the Hubble website, AM-2, AM-3 and AM-4 all use Li-ion cells.Did anyone bother to tell them?

Let’s just all agree that Hubble and Sunsynk is the way to go and close the forum (maybe leave a section for Voltronic support group as they definitely need it).

 

Nobody said that Hubble doesn’t use Li-Ion technology.
 

LFP - Lithium Iron Phosphate 

NMC - Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt 

 

Both are Lithium Ion technology. Just different chemistries. Maybe do some reading before making such statements. 

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25 minutes ago, Brani said:

Sorry my bad, got a quick lesson there.

According to the data presented before by @Kalahari Meerkat NMC is widely used in EV’s with high specific power but lower expected cycle life. 
@Leshen are you confident that company registered and established in 2020 will honor the warranty 5-10 year down the line? 
My objection is that knocking down other proven products (like Pylontech) is not making your product any better.

 

I don't see where  @Leshen is knocking down other products, at least not in this thread.

 

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5 minutes ago, Brani said:

Sorry my bad, got a quick lesson there.

According to the data presented before by @Kalahari Meerkat NMC is widely used in EV’s with high specific power but lower expected cycle life. 
@Leshen are you confident that company registered and established in 2020 will honor the warranty 5-10 year down the line? 
My objection is that knocking down other proven products (like Pylontech) is not making your product any better.

 

I can confidently tell you, after dealing with Hubble, that they really provide a great product and service. Their AM range of batteries have BYD (est 1995) cells which are tried and tested. 
 

As an installer, we deal directly with Hubble, however we definitely don’t deal directly with Pylontech. As I mentioned in a previous thread, 2 x AM2’s BMS’s failed and Hubble’s engineers suspected a voltage surge which damaged the BMS, however without any questions asked, they were replaced. I think that says a lot. 
 

Yes Hubble haven’t been around for very long however all companies started off being new. Regarding Pylontech (est 2009), I don’t like that they can’t produce a 1C battery (due to cost) and I know many members here think that’s insignificant, but it really is in a couple of ways. 
 

Whether Hubble will be around in 10 years time, I think so, as they are looking into Lithium Titanate chemistry. They are also designing their own BMS to work with second life cells which will be much cheaper. Exciting stuff as China, America and Europe don’t want second life cells so it will be dumped into Africa. 
 

 

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