Jump to content

Batteries & their total cycles / lifespan


PsyCLown
 Share

Recommended Posts

Posted (edited)

Hey all,

 

So I have started looking into batteries a bit for my future solar setup and have noticed the claims from manufacturers seem to vary quite a bit. In a way the total cycles a battery can handle determines the lifespan of the battery, along with a few other factors.

 

The Pylontech US3000C seems to be rated for 6000+ cycles with a 90% DoD - which is impressive.

BSL Bull Batteries are 4000+ Cycles at 80% DoD

Hubble AM2 Batteries are 3000+ cycles at 100% DoD, 6000+ at 50% DoD

 


From the above specs, it would appear as if the Pylontech US3000C has a possible longer lifespan in terms of more cycles.
I suspect the rate of charge and rate of discharge will affect the battery health and lifespan though.

 

Pylontech (US3000C) state 37A recommended charge / discharge, 74A max charge / discharge. I do not believe they are 1C batteries, just under 1.8KW from a single battery as the recommended continuous draw. Maximum in theory should be 3.5KW according to the 74A max discharge current. As you add more batteries, I assume the charge rate and discharge rate would increase too as it is being split over multiple batteries.

Hubble (AM2) state 100A max discharge and 100A max charge, their batteries are 1C rated as well so can draw more power. I believe 4.8KW from a single battery, I assume continuously.

BSL Bull State 30A standard discharge, 100A max continuous discharge. I believe it is 1C and therefore 4.8KW from a single battery.

 

 

In terms of warranty, they all seem to be at least 60% of the battery capacity after 10 years of usage.

 

Pylontech: "Minimum Capacity/remaining capacity in this document would be not less than 60% of the Nominal Capacity at the end of Warranty Period."

Hubble: I could not find the info, but assume it would be the same. 60% at least after 10 years.

BSL:  "Minimum Capacity means at least 70% of the Nominal Capacity at the end of 7 years of Warranty Period. And Minimum Capacity of 10 years of Warranty Period would be not less than 60% of the Capacity at the end of 7 years Warranty Period"

 

 

So now, if the claimed number of cycles is what one should achieve before the battery reaches the 60% of it capacity, it seems as if the Pylontech US3000C offer better value in the sense of longer lifespan. Not to mention you can get more usage (discharge) out of a single cycle.

I am not going to do the maths as it is Friday and I am lazy, but we could in theory work out the total KWH one can in theory obtain from each battery based on their cycles and DoD % and the Pylontech would come out on top in this comparison.

Am I correct or am I missing something? I would assume those 6000+ cycles Pylontech claim is with the battery being charged and discharged at it's recommended current and not the maximum which is the only catch I can possibly see.

 

What are your thoughts?

Edited by PsyCLown
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, PsyCLown said:

Hey all,

 

So I have started looking into batteries a bit for my future solar setup and have noticed the claims from manufacturers seem to vary quite a bit. In a way the total cycles a battery can handle determines the lifespan of the battery, along with a few other factors.

 

The Pylontech US3000C seems to be rated for 6000+ cycles with a 90% DoD - which is impressive.

BSL Bull Batteries are 4000+ Cycles at 80% DoD

Hubble AM2 Batteries are 3000+ cycles at 100% DoD, 6000+ at 50% DoD

 


From the above specs, it would appear as if the Pylontech US3000C has a possible longer lifespan in terms of more cycles.
I suspect the rate of charge and rate of discharge will affect the battery health and lifespan though.

 

Pylontech (US3000C) state 37A recommended charge / discharge, 74A max charge / discharge. I do not believe they are 1C batteries, just under 1.8KW from a single battery as the recommended continuous draw. Maximum in theory should be 3.5KW according to the 74A max discharge current. As you add more batteries, I assume the charge rate and discharge rate would increase too as it is being split over multiple batteries.

Hubble (AM2) state 100A max discharge and 100A max charge, their batteries are 1C rated as well so can draw more power. I believe 4.8KW from a single battery, I assume continuously.

BSL Bull State 30A standard discharge, 100A max continuous discharge. I believe it is 1C and therefore 4.8KW from a single battery.

 

 

In terms of warranty, they all seem to be at least 60% of the battery capacity after 10 years of usage.

 

Pylontech: "Minimum Capacity/remaining capacity in this document would be not less than 60% of the Nominal Capacity at the end of Warranty Period."

Hubble: I could not find the info, but assume it would be the same. 60% at least after 10 years.

BSL:  "Minimum Capacity means at least 70% of the Nominal Capacity at the end of 7 years of Warranty Period. And Minimum Capacity of 10 years of Warranty Period would be not less than 60% of the Capacity at the end of 7 years Warranty Period"

 

 

So now, if the claimed number of cycles is what one should achieve before the battery reaches the 60% of it capacity, it seems as if the Pylontech US3000C offer better value in the sense of longer lifespan. Not to mention you can get more usage (discharge) out of a single cycle.

I am not going to do the maths as it is Friday and I am lazy, but we could in theory work out the total KWH one can in theory obtain from each battery based on their cycles and DoD % and the Pylontech would come out on top in this comparison.

Am I correct or am I missing something? I would assume those 6000+ cycles Pylontech claim is with the battery being charged and discharged at it's recommended current and not the maximum which is the only catch I can possibly see.

 

What are your thoughts?

LBSA claim 7000 cycles at 100% DOD at 0.5C 🤷🏿‍♂️

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, PsyCLown said:

I would assume those 6000+ cycles Pylontech claim is with the battery being charged and discharged at it's recommended current and not the maximum which is the only catch I can possibly see.

Sounds about right.

A lot of fuss is made about the fact that the Pylon is not a "1C" battery, but it actually is: the specs are very clear "Maximum discharge 74A" with a 15s peak of 100A.  I suspect that you are right and that the recommended discharge rate of 37A is for the 6000 cycles.

Anyway, in practice the ability to completely discharge your batteries in 1 hour seems more relevant in an application like an EV than a domestic ESS. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Calvin said:

I suspect that you are right and that the recommended discharge rate of 37A is for the 6000 cycles.

I agree and would think if you discharge at even less than the 37A you could even get more than 6000 cycles from the Pylontech. One thing with the Pylontech is you can use battery-view software to view the log history of alarms and any over currents or any abnormal activity. I check mine every two months or so to check for any surprises that could damage the battery. I don’t know if this is possible with the Hubble’s and BSL’s?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Gerrie said:

I agree and would think if you discharge at even less than the 37A you could even get more than 6000 cycles from the Pylontech. One thing with the Pylontech is you can use battery-view software to view the log history of alarms and any over currents or any abnormal activity. I check mine every two months or so to check for any surprises that could damage the battery. I don’t know if this is possible with the Hubble’s and BSL’s?

Hubble’s BMS logs entire history of faults or over current etc. When connected to the RIOT, Hubble can remotely view battery parameters. 

 

Regarding BSL, the max discharge current with 2 x 5.1kwh is 210A which is easily paired with an 8kw Sunsynk which can only draw 185A max. So whether the BMS records faults or not, the inverter cannot damage the battery in any event. Same goes for Hubble. Unfortunately in this scenario, you would need 4 x UP5000 paired with an 8kw Sunsynk for a warranty to be valid. This is just unnecessary cost. 

 

If end users believe that a C rating isn’t important then a question which needs to be asked is, why does Pylontech not warranty 1 x UP5000 which is a 4.8kwh battery when installed with any 5kw inverter even though it can deliver 200A for 15s. You would need 2 x UP5000 for the warranty to be valid. Hubble and BSL don’t  have those issues. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Calvin said:

Sounds about right.

A lot of fuss is made about the fact that the Pylon is not a "1C" battery, but it actually is: the specs are very clear "Maximum discharge 74A" with a 15s peak of 100A.  I suspect that you are right and that the recommended discharge rate of 37A is for the 6000 cycles.

Anyway, in practice the ability to completely discharge your batteries in 1 hour seems more relevant in an application like an EV than a domestic ESS

I disagree. It's not only discharge, but charge too. On a cloudy day, with 50-60% cloud cover moving over lethargically, I have a limited window of opportunity to get my batteries charged. The fact (and reality) that I can charge at 1C (whilst the skies are clear) means that I can stuff electrons into the battery faster during these time-limited windows. If I were limited in charge rate, then I couldn't use it as effectively. There is definitely a use-case for a strong charge-rate, even in a domestic situation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi @Leshen, I have two Pylontech 2000 batteries ( paid R15,000 each last year 😢😢), so max discharge is a total of 50 amps, the bms limits the current to a max of just under 48 amps, rest comes from the grid, so I don’t understand how a fault can occur. The only time we had a shutdown when during load shedding, wife switched on both the kettle AND microwave at the same time, but as the load was removed the battery reset itself

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Tariq said:

Hi @Leshen, I have two Pylontech 2000 batteries ( paid R15,000 each last year 😢😢), so max discharge is a total of 50 amps, the bms limits the current to a max of just under 48 amps, rest comes from the grid, so I don’t understand how a fault can occur. The only time we had a shutdown when during load shedding, wife switched on both the kettle AND microwave at the same time, but as the load was removed the battery reset itself

Hi Tariq. 
 

I think you answered your question in your post. 
 

So if Pylontech determine that the load was too much on the battery then they won’t honour the warranty. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

39 minutes ago, Leshen said:

Hi Tariq. 
 

I think you answered your question in your post. 
 

So if Pylontech determine that the load was too much on the battery then they won’t honour the warranty. 

I think what he's saying is that the BMS prevents over discharge. The sunsynk cannot pull more than what the BMS limits it to. Unless there's a way to override the BMS limits on the sunsynk, there's no reason to not honour a warranty claim. 

If I have a single pylontech US3000 battery on an 8kw sunsynk, the sunsynk will not be able to pull 8kw from the battery as the BMS will limit this to 37A. The BMS will allow 74A for 15 seconds and switch off. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

40 minutes ago, Achmat said:

I think what he's saying is that the BMS prevents over discharge. The sunsynk cannot pull more than what the BMS limits it to. Unless there's a way to override the BMS limits on the sunsynk, there's no reason to not honour a warranty claim. 

If I have a single pylontech US3000 battery on an 8kw sunsynk, the sunsynk will not be able to pull 8kw from the battery as the BMS will limit this to 37A. The BMS will allow 74A for 15 seconds and switch off. 

Hi Achmat. 
 

If Pylontech’s BMS was perfect and worked as it should then they would allow you to pair a single Pylontech US3000C with an 8kw Sunsynk but they don’t allow this and they will not honour a warranty in this example. 
 

See attached warranty. 

Pylontech_product_warranty_US serie-EU_2020 Oct.pdf

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, Leshen said:

Hi Achmat. 
 

If Pylontech’s BMS was perfect and worked as it should then they would allow you to pair a single Pylontech US3000C with an 8kw Sunsynk but they don’t allow this and they will not honour a warranty in this example. 
 

See attached warranty. 

Pylontech_product_warranty_US serie-EU_2020 Oct.pdf 448.19 kB · 1 download

Can you quote the line where they say its excluded. On my mobile so might miss it on that doc. 

I can understand not honouring warrantee claims if you try to override the BMS protection features but I really don't see where they say you must spec the battery bank to inverter size for it to be valid. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

58 minutes ago, Achmat said:

I think what he's saying is that the BMS prevents over discharge. The sunsynk cannot pull more than what the BMS limits it to. Unless there's a way to override the BMS limits on the sunsynk, there's no reason to not honour a warranty claim. 

If I have a single pylontech US3000 battery on an 8kw sunsynk, the sunsynk will not be able to pull 8kw from the battery as the BMS will limit this to 37A. The BMS will allow 74A for 15 seconds and switch off. 

The Pylontech warranty is very clear 

You have to install the Pylontech batteries exactly as is described in the Pylontech installer manual for the version of battery you own that includes the amount of batteries per inverter specification also the inverter must be an approved Inverter so for an example If you have a 5KW Sunsynk the minimum allowable Pylontech US3000C batteries are 3 Batteries if not then your Warranty is Null and void because they will require you to send Photographs very detailed Wiring Diagram and Schematics of your installation also they will require you to send information of your installer who installed the system and also proof that a COC for the installation has been issued If it were the US2000 batteries then your minimum requirement would be 4 US 2000 batteries if not then the warranty is null and Void if it is the new UP5000 Battery which is supposed to be a 1C Battery  you have to have 2 units connected to a 5KW inverter which means the UP5000 is not a 1C battery also if you have one UP5000 your warranty would be Null and Void

If the pylontech batteries are not installed Exactly as it is specified in the Installer manual the warranties are null and void that includes Earthing Communication as specified for the UP5000 and all the other settings even if you do not preset the inverter before you connect the batteries and cause a Spike into the BMS of Say a US3000C above 72 amps your warranty is also void and they will be able to see this spike logged in the BMS Pylontechs BMS clearly does not Protect the battery against High AMP current draws otherwise this would not be specifically mentioned in the installer manual and warnings by the suppliers.

So in your case Pylontech will not cover your warranty if you have a failure of any kind on your battery..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Also 

The Pylontech installation manual provides clear steps to ensure the correct set-up and installation of the batteries in a system. Before installation, be sure to cut off the grid power and make sure the battery is in the turned-off mode. Also remember: • Wiring must be correct, do not mistake the positive and negative cables, and ensure no short circuit with the external device. • It is prohibited to connect the battery and AC power directly. • The embedded BMS in the battery is designed for 48VDC, please DO NOT connect the battery in series. • The battery system must be well grounded and the resistance must be less than 1 ohm. • Please ensure the electrical parameters of battery system are compatible to related equipment. • Keep the battery away from water and fire. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, Achmat said:

Can you quote the line where they say its excluded. On my mobile so might miss it on that doc. 

I can understand not honouring warrantee claims if you try to override the BMS protection features but I really don't see where they say you must spec the battery bank to inverter size for it to be valid. 

 

Hi Achmat. 
 

I contacted Segen solar yesterday to supply a client with an Axpert VM3 paired with a US3000C and they will not allow me to make the purchase as they do not allow pairing a 5kw inverter with a Pylontech battery that can only deliver 1.75kw. 
 

Speak to Full Circle Solar who have been around for very long and Paul will tell you this as well. 
 

If you are confident that Pylontech will honor a warranty claim with an incorrectly designed system then that’s great however they can contact you and ask you what size inverter you have and what battery etc. See quote as requested. 
 

Pylontech may contact You for further information regarding a defect. Pylontech may require You to complete root analysis testing of the Product to provide evidence supporting the claim. Final verification of the claim will be made by Pylontech.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Brani said:

@Leshen can you please provide us with Hubble warranty documents? 
I can’t seem to find it on their website.

This discussion is about Pylontech I don't see the relevance should we then look at Blue Nova, Freedom Won, Revov, Tesla , BSLB , Narada , Shoto , Giter , Kodak, and so on warranties too ?

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, Boerseun said:

Also 

The Pylontech installation manual provides clear steps to ensure the correct set-up and installation of the batteries in a system. Before installation, be sure to cut off the grid power and make sure the battery is in the turned-off mode. Also remember: • Wiring must be correct, do not mistake the positive and negative cables, and ensure no short circuit with the external device. • It is prohibited to connect the battery and AC power directly. • The embedded BMS in the battery is designed for 48VDC, please DO NOT connect the battery in series. • The battery system must be well grounded and the resistance must be less than 1 ohm. • Please ensure the electrical parameters of battery system are compatible to related equipment. • Keep the battery away from water and fire. 

I still don't find anything indicating from the pylontech documentation that you must size the battery bank to the inverter size. Just a recommended battery bank size from Segen Solar. 

They do highlight all the safety features of the BMS that manages over charge and discharge rates. What's the point of this safety feature if its not covered by the warrantee. 

Also no evidence of a warranty not honored due to a single battery on a big inverter. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Brani said:

The discussion is about number of cycles that Pylontech gives versus Hubble. So if we are looking at Pylontech warranty conditions, it is only fair to compare the two.

OK at what C Rating is Pylontechs Claim ? for its 6000 cycles

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Achmat said:

I still don't find anything indicating from the pylontech documentation that you must size the battery bank to the inverter size. Just a recommended battery bank size from Segen Solar. 

They do highlight all the safety features of the BMS that manages over charge and discharge rates. What's the point of this safety feature if its not covered by the warrantee. 

Also no evidence of a warranty not honored due to a single battery on a big inverter. 

Hi Achmat. 
 

Unfortunately we as installers don’t deal directly with Pylontech however we do deal with Segen and their requirements are quite clear ie a 5kw inverter paired with a minimum of 2 x UP5000. 
 

When there is  a warranty claim, I have to contact Segen, not Pylontech, and I can assure you that they want to see everything regarding an install, ie wiring diagram, pics etc. 
 

I won’t take that risk, I would rather install a system that complies with Segen’s T&Cs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...