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Batteries & their total cycles / lifespan


PsyCLown
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4 minutes ago, Brani said:

What I have noticed is that your document is from April 2021 and Leshen’s from December 2020. Unless they did a turnaround, I would assume it’s 5 years.

More concerning is how do you get 3000 cycles in 5 years, they mention whichever comes first. Do they count part charge/discharge or pro-rata? Leshen, you mentioned that Hubble definitely doesn’t count part cycles. 
 

Very similar to car warranties. 5 years or 100 000kms, whichever comes first.

It will depend on how many cycles is done in a day. The BMS will calculate exactly how many cycles are done, whether full or part and at what C rating. 
 

Please remember, which many forget. It’s 3000 cycles at 100% DOD at 1C. 

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3 minutes ago, Brani said:

Typically a cycle is 100-20-100 or part thereoff, but if you go from 100 to 20 and start charging in the morning to say 60, and then it rains and Eskom goes off and you go down to 20 again, and charge to full all in one day, is that 2 cycles? You could have 5 or 6 of those in one day, that surely can’t count as a cycle. This is the question for all brands, not a specific one.

Other than that, even if they count a double cycle, there is no way you can reach 3000 cycles in 5 years on a typical installation in South Africa.

But you aren’t getting it. It’s 3000 cycles at 1C. Are you always going to draw 100A from an AM2?

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4 minutes ago, Brani said:

My point exactly, why then shorten the warranty from 10 years to 5 years?

Have you been following this thread or do you cherry pick what to read. See post by Boerseun showing that the warranty is 10 years as confirmed by Hubble.  
 

Ask that warranty reduction question to Pylontech on their UP5000 because that’s where it’s relevant. 

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2 minutes ago, Brani said:

I can cherry pick the comment that triggers you, if you will.
The more I read the less confidence I have in those batteries, but that’s just my personal opinion so let’s leave it at that.

Best he comes up with updated document, was the other document from April fake?

I suggest you do leave it at that because you don’t add any value whatsoever to this thread. 
 

 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Brani said:

Typically a cycle is 100-20-100 or part thereoff, but if you go from 100 to 20 and start charging in the morning to say 60, and then it rains and Eskom goes off and you go down to 20 again, and charge to full all in one day, is that 2 cycles? You could have 5 or 6 of those in one day, that surely can’t count as a cycle. This is the question for all brands, not a specific one.

Other than that, even if they count a double cycle, there is no way you can reach 3000 cycles in 5 years on a typical installation in South Africa.

AFAIK a cycle means that you discharge the battery by 1C (or by the usable kwh, since most bms's will shut off at around 90%)

So say you have a 10kwh battery (of which 90% is usable), if you discharge it by 9kwh and then charge it by 9kwh it will be one cycle.

If you only discharge and charge 1kwh every day you will only be completing one cycle every 9 days.

If you, as in your example above, discharge 8kwh, charge 4kwh, and then discharge 4kwh in one day that will be a total discharge of 12kwh so it will be one and a third of a cycle.

So 3000 cycles will be 3000 x the usable kwh (or whatever percentage of the total kwh the manufacturer specifies) of the battery. If you reach that throughput before the end of the warranty period, you're out of luck.

Edited by tetrasection
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If you read their warranty, irrespective of the 5 or 10 years it only warrants that its good to 50% capacity up to 3000 cycles...So after 3000 cycles (irrespective of time, at 1C) they are happy that it will still have 50% of rated power.

In contrast the Pylontechs warranty, specific to SA, warrants 10yrs to 60% (if you don't register your batteries with them you only get 7 yrs but its to 70%)  of original capacity.

BUT the Pylontech warranty point 5 , says must use on "daily cycle basis", what does that mean? It MUST be cycled daily or it can only be cycled once daily?

Otherwise the warranties seems to have the same "non abuse" clauses etc....

 

 

Capture.PNG

Pylontech product warranty-US serie V1.1 SA20WS7055 South Africa.pdf

Edited by FixAMess
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5 minutes ago, FixAMess said:

BUT the Pylontech warranty point 5 , says must use on "daily cycle basis", what does that mean? It MUST be cycled daily or it can only be cycled once daily?

be used on a daily cycle basis.

Both singular, so I read that the frequency of cycling needs to be once per day. This ostensibly to avoid keeping the lithium battery at 100% for extended periods, which places wear on it. 

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13 minutes ago, FixAMess said:

If you read their warranty, irrespective of the 5 or 10 years it only warrants that its good to 50% capacity up to 3000 cycles...So after 3000 cycles (irrespective of time, at 1C) they are happy that it will still have 50% of rated power.

When reading the conditions of the warrantee it seems that you cannot claim for a battery that could still supply 50% of its capacity as it is not considered faulty. Also looking at the last part of conditions it seems if these batteries are not kept below 25 degrees the warrantee cannot be honored. This is problematic for South African conditions as the ambient temperatures easily exceeds 25 degrees in summer.

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41 minutes ago, Gerrie said:

This is problematic for South African conditions as the ambient temperatures easily exceeds 25 degrees in summer.

Not only ambient: all batteries have internal resistance, which generate heat proportional to the square of the current.  So, charging at 1C for 1 hour will heat the battery up 10 times more than charging it at 0.1C for 10 hours.

I suspect that this is a big part of the reason why Pylon do not want you to charge/discharge at 1C.

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On 2021/06/10 at 10:59 AM, YellowTapemeasure said:

be used on a daily cycle basis.

Both singular, so I read that the frequency of cycling needs to be once per day. This ostensibly to avoid keeping the lithium battery at 100% for extended periods, which places wear on it. 

The question is, do they want a full cycle each day or how much discharge would they be satisfied with per day?

If one goes away on holiday, power usage for that period won't be as high.

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37 minutes ago, PsyCLown said:

The question is, do they want a full cycle each day or how much discharge would they be satisfied with per day?

If one goes away on holiday, power usage for that period won't be as high.

I think this section along with the @25 degrees thing is just them referring to the fact that those were the test conditions under which the battery is expected to provide x number of cycles.

Interpreting it as if they are saying they would void your warranty if you don't discharge the battery even for a single day or don't keep the temperature at exactly 25 degrees just doesn't make sense to me.

Edited by tetrasection
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10 hours ago, tetrasection said:

I think this section along with the @25 degrees thing is just them referring to the fact that those were the test conditions under which the battery is expected to provide x number of cycles.

Interpreting it as if they are saying they would void your warranty if you don't discharge the battery even for a single day or don't keep the temperature at exactly 25 degrees just doesn't make sense to me.

And therein lies the rub. It's not meant to make sense to the user. 

It's a condition that exists to provide a means for the manufacturer to escape fulfilling the warranty.  

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Been following this thread with some interest and admittedly trepidation going into my own solar installation. Just confirming, would a sunsynk 5kw paired with either 2 of Pylon UP5000 4.8kWh Li-Ion Solar Battery 48V or a single BSLB 10.2 KWH 51v Power Wall Lithium Battery be a safe combination warranty wise?

Edited by zathras
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1 hour ago, zathras said:

Been following this thread with some interest and admittedly trepidation going into my own solar installation. Just confirming, would a sunsynk 5kw paired with either 2 of Pylon UP5000 4.8kWh Li-Ion Solar Battery 48V or a single BSLB 10.2 KWH 51v Power Wall Lithium Battery be a safe combination warranty wise?

IMO this is the one to go for: https://www.solarpanelenergy.co.za/p/938241/dyness-96kwh-lithium-ion-battery-power-box

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3 hours ago, tetrasection said:

The only issue with this one is that if it pack up, you will be left without battery back up while waiting for warranty replacement. It will be better to buy four x US2000B or two Dyness 4.8Kw 😁

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5 hours ago, zathras said:

Been following this thread with some interest and admittedly trepidation going into my own solar installation. Just confirming, would a sunsynk 5kw paired with either 2 of Pylon UP5000 4.8kWh Li-Ion Solar Battery 48V or a single BSLB 10.2 KWH 51v Power Wall Lithium Battery be a safe combination warranty wise?

Pairing the inverter with a battery in terms of battery size doesn't guarantee that you will not over charge or over discharge you battery. How you set up your system to avoid conditions that will lead to your warranty being voided, is the trick. For example, if you know that you will be using your back up system only to power few lights and a TV, you can safely use one Pylon US2000B with a 5KW inverter without a doubt. If you were to use a smaller inverter, you will have an issue with overloading the inverter when in By-pass grid mode. when the grid is not available i.e loadshedding, your heaters, stoves, geysers and all other heavy power consuming appliances can be isolated so that your one battery can only be used to run essentials. It is not a must to match the inverter out put to the battery, it is a must to match your battery capacity to your essential load demand 

Edited by hoohloc
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15 hours ago, zathras said:

Been following this thread with some interest and admittedly trepidation going into my own solar installation. Just confirming, would a sunsynk 5kw paired with either 2 of Pylon UP5000 4.8kWh Li-Ion Solar Battery 48V or a single BSLB 10.2 KWH 51v Power Wall Lithium Battery be a safe combination warranty wise?

Have you read both of the warranties, and if so, what are your concerns?

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7 hours ago, YellowTapemeasure said:

Have you read both of the warranties, and if so, what are your concerns?

Thank you kindly for all the responses and advice everyone.

My main concern was that if my battery failed prematurely, my warranty would still be valid, based on the inverter-battery combination, so that I'm not drawing more than the C rating of the battery.

Having read some the Canberra battery test centre results, based on their torture testing, and with batteries being such a significant outlay, it's probably the part of my intended solar system I'm still pretty undecided on. https://www.solarquotes.com.au/blog/battery-test-centre-reports/

Regarding the pylontech batteries, @Vassenand other members, what are the advantages and disadvantages of 2 UP5000 Vs 3 US3000C? Do you get cabinets for the UP5000? Those are an additional cost to factor in.

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32 minutes ago, zathras said:

Thank you kindly for all the responses and advice everyone.

My main concern was that if my battery failed prematurely, my warranty would still be valid, based on the inverter-battery combination, so that I'm not drawing more than the C rating of the battery.

Having read some the Canberra battery test centre results, based on their torture testing, and with batteries being such a significant outlay, it's probably the part of my intended solar system I'm still pretty undecided on. https://www.solarquotes.com.au/blog/battery-test-centre-reports/

Regarding the pylontech batteries, @Vassenand other members, what are the advantages and disadvantages of 2 UP5000 Vs 3 US3000C? Do you get cabinets for the UP5000? Those are an additional cost to factor in.

I take it that you are going to be cycling the batteries every day?

What about temperature? Will they be installed in a controlled temperature environment?

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9 hours ago, Vassen said:

Seems like every pylontech vs… ends up like that. 

It ends up like that whenever Hubble gets mentioned. 
 

9 hours ago, Vassen said:

Strange that Hubble went from a 10 year warranty, down to a 5 year and then back to 10 years. Any idea why this was the case. 

Not sure why that was the case, however it is 10 years. 
 

9 hours ago, Vassen said:

As far as I know, the pylontech US5000 has always been a 5 year warranty, so they haven’t really reduced. It was designed as such so I think it’s a bit unfair to state that they have reduced the warranty on this. 

What I meant was that when Pylontech introduced the US2000B and then the US2000C, it came with a longer warranty than 5 years. So it’s strange to me that as technology advances with an established international brand, their latest development, UP5000, only has a 5 year warranty which isn’t extendable through registration. Hence I said a reduction. 
 

You are fortunate enough to have a 21kwh battery bank therefore C rating is not an issue. The majority of the population however are on an extremely tight budget and a 5kw inverter paired with a 51v 100AH 1C battery is a great solution. 

9 hours ago, Vassen said:

Hubble is a local brand, how sure are we that they will still be around in 5 or 10 years… given the state of our country and the crap that we are forced to live with. 

Hubble is assembled in China using BYD cells. Im not sure what the issue is with “local brands”. Unfortunately, nobody knows what the future holds and that goes for all brands. 

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1 hour ago, zathras said:

what are the advantages and disadvantages of 2 UP5000 Vs 3 US3000C? Do you get cabinets for the UP5000? Those are an additional cost to factor in.

The only advantage is you have a longer warranty on the US3000C. Also little more capacity with 3 x US3000C. You do get cabinets for all Pylontechs and they are at an additional cost.  

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1 hour ago, YellowTapemeasure said:

I take it that you are going to be cycling the batteries every day?

What about temperature? Will they be installed in a controlled temperature environment?

Good question, hadn't thought that much about all the implications of cycling. I would probably set it to a more conservative depth of discharge, e.g 30%, even if it meant switching back to grid at some point in the night. We'll see when the city of Joburg solar tariffs kick in. 

Installer should be coming out soon for site visit then will discussed installation locations with him. For now, the rooms I've earmarked as possibilities don't have extreme temperatures where the battery would be charging or discharging below zero or greater than 25 to 30 degree Celsius. But they aren't temperature controlled. The house is north facing with pink aerolite, so temperature doesn't get too extreme. No aircons needed in summer.

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