I have a dedicated PV system consisting of 4x 435W panels, Growatt SPF3000TL (24V) and a Hubble AM4 (2.75KWh) battery to isolate (from the grid) and feed my rather sensitive audio and video equipment. It is set up to feed in sequence Solar- Battery- Utility.

I started off with the system as is but using 2 x 100Ah deep cycle batteries in series (for 24V) before ‘upgrading’ to Li in late October. Batteries were then usually the source powering TV and audio from dark to maximum 22h00, when all would be on standby only. By morning, the Deep Cycle batteries were still OK, but with the Li, by 06h00 to 07h00, the system reverts to utility power as the battery has gone dead and the sun (located in Langebaan) is not sufficient yet. It seems to be getting worse over time too, with the system reverting to utility earlier and earlier despite having longer sunshine in the evenings. My panels face NNW and battery is fully charged around 13h00, and gets several more hours’ sun.

Voltages on the inverter is (I checked) exactly as per the manual page 5: Low 23V; Float, 28V and Bulk 29V.

The installer said that it is not necessary to connect the communication cable as voltages can be set on the inverter.

Now, as the Deep cycle batteries were set up to be drained to a max of 50%, while the Li one is supposed to be drained to 80%; my understanding is that the Li battery should outlast the Deep cycle ones by a rather large margin, yet is not so.

I have been told contradicting stories that the inverter cannot be set to Li battery and percentages set if the comms cable is not used, and also that it does not support (cannot) control the battery as it does not even have the hardware therefore.

Is it defaulting to 50%? If so, why did the deep cycle’s 50% prove to be more than the Li battery’s 50%?

The installer maintains that the inverter settings must be changed, and his contention is that the sequence should be Utility – solar- battery, but that defeats the purpose of the setup to isolate my equipment as utility is simply bypassing the inverter.

My contention is the Li battery is defective/does not have the purported capacity. Please advise?

There are more tails to the story of what transpired after I put the above out there elsewhere, but suffice to say for now, I'd appreciate inputs/opinions.

Edited December 10, 20213 yr by Pax

Hi,

I would start by getting hold of hubble directly, your inverter is not directly covered by the inverter guide below.

https://www.hubblelithium.co.za/growatt-hubble-setup.html

the lithium ion has far more capacity than the lead acids did, so you really should be getting far more uptime out of them, double or slightly more in fact.

having said that, poor settings can be detrimental to the products expected lifetime and performance, and needs to be checked, I'd do it today.

Edited December 10, 20213 yr by Nitrious

I did try to get help from Hubble. Response was extremely slow and not helpful. Complaining about the substandard service brought the wrath of the national sales coordinator who shreiked like a soprano in an opera when she called me to enquire 'what my problem is' and kept interrupting and talking over me when I answer questions, who then told staff not to respond to my enquiries (per mail to me, and no-one did respond further save for a salesman) because she did not like that I responded equally aggressively. I have also been told that as I did not buy from them, but through an installer, they are not interested in helping me. Explaining that the installer would not help, and I have nowhere else to turn to, did not help to change their stance,  so for now at least until I deal through the National Consumer Commission therewith, or the company sees this as a maverick employee damaging the corporate image and addresses this, I am asking here for help as my installer has all but disappeared.

At his stage it seems that if you do not buy from Hubble directly, they give one the cold shoulder and is not interested, which means that they by implication also will not honour any warranty.

In fact, as said, there was one salesman who defied the soprano and at least gave me the name of an installer in CT whom I must ask for help. Hubble clearly would not help, at least not out of their free will - the NCC will have to force them it seems.

I shall deal with the full version and names of staff I dealt with and the installer I used in another post as public service so people out there do not fall in the same trap and get treated in this fashion.

For now, every single input, save for referring me to the installer and manufacturer, shall be helpful.

Edited December 10, 20213 yr by Pax
spelling improved

 

 

6 hours ago, Pax said:

I have been told contradicting stories that the inverter cannot be set to Li battery and percentages set if the comms cable is not used, and also that it does not support (cannot) control the battery as it does not even have the hardware therefore.

In typical Lithium battery to inverter comms, it's actually the other way around, the battery's BMS is in the best position to call the shots, and it will allow or not allow certain things, and sometimes even forces / demands that certain things are done, all this towards the objective of protecting it and its cells. The inverter then needs to manage its supply sources around that, and make its own decisions, based on its setup and its objectives of keeping the essential loads serviced.

Did your installer recommend the battery to you, or did you purchase it out of your own volition? I am trying to understand why someone would buy a lithium battery without checking that inverter <-> battery comms is supported. 

Edited December 10, 20213 yr by YellowTapemeasure

Installer recommended the battery. I was in fact told by some the best battery would be Pylontech. The installer said Hubble is better and he had experienced problems with Pylontech. 

16 minutes ago, YellowTapemeasure said:

 

 

In typical Lithium battery to inverter comms, it's actually the other way around, the battery's BMS is in the best position to call the shots, and it will allow or not allow certain things, and sometimes even forces / demands that certain things are done, all this towards the objecive of protecting it and its cells. The inverter then needs to manage its supply sources around that, and make its own decisions, based on its setup and its objectives of keeping the essential loads serviced.

Did your installer recommend the battery to you, or did you purchase it out of your own volition? I am trying to understand why someone would buy a lithium battery without checking that inverter <-> battery comms is supported. 

Still, should the battery not perform better? What would be my best solution? Have a different battery installed or a different inverter, or should it in fact work as is? 

Edited December 10, 20213 yr by Pax

I don't know the Growatt at all, so I cannot help there.

It sounds to me like your main issue is your installer. If I were you, I would push for a resolution from him, considering that fact that he recommended the battery with your inverter despite the fact that comms is not supported. Alternatively, replace your installer with someone more reputable.

 

According to the Hubble website and sales pamphlet:
https://www.hubblelithium.co.za/uploads/1/3/5/0/135079623/hubble_lithium_am-4_pamphlet_v1.5.pdf
Specification: 25.5V 2.6kWh, on page 2, it states 100Ah at 25.5V = 2,550W which is close to the marking 2.6kWh.

Ah * Volts = Watt hours, from the calculations you should have 1.7x the energy (Wh) available with the AM4.

In order to confirm what's going on, you need to access the AM4's Battery Management System (BMS) data.
You will need a serial cable, and software that can decode the data.

I use Solar-Assistant to read the Hubble AM2 BMS - not sure about if it will work with AM4
The BMS provides very useful data like Rated Capacity Ah, SoC, Charge Cycles, etc.
See https://solar-assistant.io/help/dashboard/battery
Below is BMS data from my 4xAM2 extracted from Solar-Assistant to Excel:

 
>The installer said that it is not necessary to connect the communication cable as voltages can be set on the inverter.
As others have suggested, for Lithium batteries, it's recommended to have the BMS connected to the inverter (CANBus/RS485/etc) so that the BMS can inform the inverter as to it's State of Charge (SoC) which is more accurate than Volts.
Check if there is a firmware update for the Growatt. Newer firmware may have support for Hubble.

The BMS also performs other functions like Cell Balancing every few days when the SoC is 100%.

Without data you will struggle to identify what's going on.

Suggestions:
1) Update firmware for better integration and bug fixes (can you tell I'm a computer technician? 🙂)
2) Log BMS and Inverter data - keep history
3) Use data guide your plant settings
4) Use data to prove/disprove the problem

Edited December 10, 20213 yr by system32

I'm surprised at hubble's support response, theres actually a hubble guy on the forum here, maybe he can step in

since your inverter doesnt support direct comms with the bms. I suggest the following steps.

1. post a screenshot of your current inverter settings so we can help you check them, this will ensure your system is at least setup properly for the moment.

2. get hold of manie @ https://iccsoftware.co.za/ 

they're busy on a push to add more inverter and battery support, ask if yours can be added, then icc can act as intermediary between your inverter and battery.

this likely wont be instant, but will provide a long term solution for your needs.

3. another possible option would be to sell your inverter and get something that's actually compatible with the battery, but shouldn't be necessary with the steps above.

also I did pick up your installer was the problem in this equation, and clearly did not do his homework, but simply made a sale.

personally I would get a verified hubble installer in your area should it not be resolved via the steps outlines above, rather than someones "contact". 

 

Edited December 11, 20213 yr by Nitrious

23 hours ago, Nitrious said:

Hi,

I would start by getting hold of hubble directly, your inverter is not directly covered by the inverter guide below.

https://www.hubblelithium.co.za/growatt-hubble-setup.html

the lithium ion has far more capacity than the lead acids did, so you really should be getting far more uptime out of them, double or slightly more in fact.

having said that, poor settings can be detrimental to the products expected lifetime and performance, and needs to be checked, I'd do it today.

OK, been asked to check settings. I have checked and noted in the manual, which is easier than taking 21 screen pictures on the unit, so here goes:

Growatt Settings .pdf

https://www.hubblelithium.co.za/mecer-hubble-setup.html - look for Mecer 24v

you could possibly consider software to connect to your growatt inverter instead of using the builtin display, did you not get a cd with it.

additionally you have to get your hubble warranty sorted out, and in place with hubble, it may require a visit by a hubble recommended tech/installer to sign off on.

perhaps when calling, enquire about your situation regarding tech/installer signoff, rather than anything else, if you can, get it in writing via email.

Mecer 24V - same limitations as your growatt inverter, no bms comms
Hubble AM-4

Battery Charge Amps - Recommended 40Amp per battery -> 20A acceptable, you could use 30A

Battery Type - USE/Custom -> setting USE 05, in place

1. Voltage point back to Utility - 28V - (website) appear reversed with 2. -> 23v might be a bit low, use 24v instead.

2. Voltage point back to Battery - 24V - (website) appear reversed with 1. -> 27v is fine.

Bulk Charge - 29V -> spot on

Float Charge Voltage - 28V -> spot on

Low DC Cut off - 22.5V -> 23v is fine.

its not as bad as I thought when I first went through the pdf, however warranty and inverter - battery comms should your next priority.

 

 

 

Edited December 11, 20213 yr by Nitrious