April 24, 20242 yr The law is very simple, a solarpanel frame has to be earthed. I am personnaly totally against earthing a solar panel frame, except if it has a suitable 50 - 100KA lightning surge arrestor between earth and panel frame.. . However lightning will dispose of it energy by finding the best earth. That is not allways the shortest route. If your panel frame is the best earthed metal in the area, you are a sitting duck. If I look at all the high rise buidings in Johannesburrg, the frames of the alluminum windows are not earthed and I have not heard or experienced in the near 25 years I was dealing with Siemens lightning arresters and varistors and insurance issues, that a building was hit via the metal window frames, when the frame was not earthed. What is your opinion. Sadly the Siemens surge arrestor factory in Berlin who made the 50 KA lighning arrestors does no longer exist anymore. Who can help me with a company who sells high current and fast lightning surge arrestors of 50 KA - 100 KA in small quantities the maximum current we had measured in JHB was 50 KA , but there are allways exceptions, like 300.000 Ampere measured in Japan. Thanks if you know who sells them. BertKu.
April 25, 20242 yr Author I need a gas discharge lightning arrestor because the speed of such discharge arrestor is in nano seconds and the conducting to earth is about 10 nS that suits me, special for a lightning strike which are continuous bursts of high currents and it recovers as soon the voltage has dropped below 10 volt .Sadly the one arrestor I still had , I dropped and the glass broke and the Berlin factory does not exists anymore. There are 50 to 60 kA arrestors on the market, but they are made for 235 Volt and i like to have it down to 10 Volt and 10 nano Second otherwise it is not legal. The idea is , the lightning does not find it attractive as the earth resistance somewhere else is better to discharge the lightning current, but should i be so unlucky still to get a high surge from a lightning strike close by , i am safe with my installation. I hate to invite lightning onto my house, by having the best earthed solar panels in the area.
April 26, 20242 yr Our towns top electrician has the same theory about earthing outside object as he also said that if it's earth the the lightning will then follow that earthing and damage electronic . He said 90% of electric gate motors that are damage due to lightning all are earths the ones that are not earth last till they wear out .
April 27, 20242 yr Hi BertKu and GMAC I am like you in that I do not want to invite lightning to my house. The only thing so far I can fine is in the link below but I fear it is not what you originally requred. I would be glad to hear how you fit the item you describe from Siemens betwen the array and the ground as I have toyed witht the idea of removing the earth to the ground rod until I can find a suitable arrestor to put in between it and the array https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/224439027843?itmmeta=01HWFKD24DEWV2W77GM0RCH5RF&hash=item34419bc883:g:jUUAAOSw-Qdghbu2&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA8EY2X3UMk%2BhOldPE58ANc43bRrfUEvTjNtKzBy5i3LsaHHh9600Qj2l7QHRTK%2BLw%2Fyva1evyvArKoXf0HZDgpsmkJ8RaA3AwL39XUE%2BzQ72lo9d0fVFW77Hl%2BK6KcHa583RKwC2SUVSab%2F8V7oSxCQDBHGoiqlD%2BHC9%2F8KHcLH0be2NMDS8DRqOXBznJcNctrmfKJf18TqwioqsNBLRlqFzJPHI6fv7r3lfVgT3utPJ29UQqIKPDiJscmfDNDj0lISXS4wUm%2F4TpYQ7ymMshojEVftNnYkPK6eJPX8XiHUfIUT2PIRSoixUlmQFsrDyaOg%3D%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR6SitPPjYw https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/134683195330?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%3D1110018%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.COMPLISTINGS%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20210609144404%26meid%3De051653ea2d74a29a88c60b2c57cd8cb%26pid%3D101196%26rk%3D9%26rkt%3D12%26sd%3D224439027843%26itm%3D134683195330%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D4429486%26algv%3DCompVIDesktopATF2V4WithDefaultIMAFeature%26brand%3DTDK&_trksid=p4429486.c101196.m2219&itmprp=cksum%3A134683195330e051653ea2d74a29a88c60b2c57cd8cb|enc%3AAQAJAAABILUK373GZYwoSkhvUXwZwr2SLMQzpCH9tKsUlXR5IUOVFg6%2BDk7Rw1OZXS%2Bb4%2BWbaa%2FamoCN%2BreHLzvTWoEyq1YPZF9EL6OGqDXOeHTi0KtYWzW3ZbG2dji0ryZ%2FsqX4uSbivsJY48GlLWp3AFz2i2EIBqaLMnqeRWLTXfwDFqzbakwW9zdHTsxBEv2qRivsL3uUHJUNGUPNCTso%2FrxKIBnl00X2u9Fqa1hH3IHyZarieyMnaAn6Qu1%2BGJKCWv5832Rl9SlXmZjNJM%2BsRSGPZV2xtTSlzkJuKIjJISPdbYucoqSs9VoAqfoq9KFl7VFGUfT8eReNRsrEPrQcSITfc6ULXCaSXQdExrWrEG9ALQ7TLse7fKmiXZzQ8kp3%2Fj1yKg%3D%3D|ampid%3APL_CLK|clp%3A4429486&itmmeta=01HWFKE4NM06RGGS3VNHSGC6ES regards Bony999 Edited April 27, 20242 yr by bony999 missed first poster
May 2, 20242 yr Author On 2024/04/27 at 1:05 PM, bony999 said: Hi BertKu and GMAC I am like you in that I do not want to invite lightning to my house. The only thing so far I can fine is in the link below but I fear it is not what you originally requred. I would be glad to hear how you fit the item you describe from Siemens betwen the array and the ground as I have toyed witht the idea of removing the earth to the ground rod until I can find a suitable arrestor to put in between it and the array Bony999 Thank you Bonny, my apology, My wife had a hip replacement and that took me also down. Had to give her 100 % attention. That is interesting stuff you found for me. I hope to get something, which can handle higher currents and faster in time. The Siemens was up to 50 Ka and 10 nano second reaction time + max breakdown voltage was approx 10 Volt for duration of the strike. That one would have been ideal, The problem is. If the lightning strikes , let say 6 panels at the other end, the resistance of the frames to the earth might be 0,05 Ohm, but at 50.000 Ampere is means 2500 Volt still, thus i like to have arrestors on more than one frame with a fat copper bar to the central earth. But that is a dream, not easily to materialize. Bert
May 2, 20242 yr Author On 2024/04/26 at 10:13 PM, GMAC said: Our towns top electrician has the same theory about earthing outside object as he also said that if it's earth the the lightning will then follow that earthing and damage electronic . He said 90% of electric gate motors that are damage due to lightning all are earths the ones that are not earth last till they wear out . I am pleased that some people realize what the real problem is. Tell him, to thank him for using his practical experience, not those few engineers who have an incredible theoretical knowledge , but lack the practical side of it. He is right, for 20 years my electronic gate motor survived lightning by not having it earthed. Sadly i put an earth to it, after modifying the electronics and it blew all my Mosfets and even all transistors. It took only a month and now I had to rebuild the electronics again. Bert
May 2, 20242 yr Author On 2024/04/26 at 10:13 PM, GMAC said: Our towns top electrician has the same theory about earthing outside object as he also said that if it's earth the the lightning will then follow that earthing and damage electronic . He said 90% of electric gate motors that are damage due to lightning all are earths the ones that are not earth last till they wear out . I am pleased that some people realize what the real problem is. Tell him, to thank him for using his practical experience, not those few engineers who have an incredible theoretical knowledge , but lack the practical side of it. He is right, for 20 years my electronic gate motor survived lightning by not having it earthed. Sadly i put an earth to it, after modifying the electronics and it blew all my Mosfets and even all transistors. It took only a month and now I had to rebuild the electronics again. Bert
May 2, 20242 yr Author Hi Bony999,k fat 10 to 12 On your question , how I should do the mounting. I would run a copper thick fat 10 to 12 mm2 copper welding cable run along the various panels. Then connect at various places of the series of solar panels the lightning arrestors to the fat thick copper cable running to the earthing 3 ground pins. Bear in mind, lightning arrestors parallel close next to each other is a no go, I think. Otherwise i could have placed 20 x 10 KA lightning arrestors parallel. But they will probably pop like a popcorn machine. I wish that the Siemens factory would still be in exsistance in Berlin, I could have asked them to do an experiment for me, to place 10 arrestors parralel and shoot 50 KAmpere at it. Will they all pop, or will there a be a sequence of tripping and the 50 KAmpere is rerouted to earth. Bert P.S. Maybe CSIR may be able to do such a test. (lightning arrestor- small resistance)+ (lightning arrestor- small resistace ) etc with 10 z 10 KAmpere lightning arrestors all in a string. What would happen and will it be a good solution for 50 KA - 100 KA. Bert
May 2, 20242 yr Author 4 minutes ago, BertKu said: Hi Bony999,k fat 10 to 12 On your question , how I should do the mounting. I would run a copper thick fat 10 to 12 mm2 copper welding cable run along the various panels. Then connect at various places of the series of solar panels the lightning arrestors to the fat thick copper cable running to the earthing 3 ground pins. Bear in mind, lightning arrestors parallel close next to each other is a no go, I think. Otherwise i could have placed 20 x 10 KA lightning arrestors parallel. But they will probably pop like a popcorn machine. I wish that the Siemens factory would still be in exsistance in Berlin, I could have asked them to do an experiment for me, to place 10 arrestors parralel and shoot 50 KAmpere at it. Will they all pop, or will there a be a sequence of tripping and the 50 KAmpere is rerouted to earth. Bert P.S. Maybe CSIR may be able to do such a test. (lightning arrestor- small resistance)+ (lightning arrestor- small resistace ) etc with 10 z 10 KAmpere lightning arrestors all in a string. What would happen and will it be a good solution for 50 KA - 100 KA. Bert I searched in the internet, they think it could be beneficial o have a series of lightning arrestors parallel.
May 2, 20242 yr Hi BertKu I am grateful for the reply. I am not that familiar with the way these arrestors work and moreover how to connect the three legs. I have been looking into a way to connect an earth from the panels / frames that was never completely connected to the ground rod, i.e. something with an air gap or similar that could only be grounded when and if a sufficient current was put down the cable. That way there would be not permanent connection and it would only be in the event of a strike that there would be someway to dissipate the charge.. Now before anyone else reading this adds that I must be mad or similar, I will in the first instance say that it was my way of not having a direct path to ground for any stray lightning to follow, in much the same way as not being the best grounded array in the area. Currently I have no ground from the array and I am swaying between connecting or not connecting but until I am convinced it is better conected than not I will leave it as it is. If anyone else has a suggestion on a suitable way to ground the array without making it the best target for lightning then I would be very glad to hear it. Regards Bony999
May 5, 20242 yr Author On 2024/05/02 at 3:41 PM, bony999 said: Hi BertKu I am grateful for the reply. I am not that familiar with the way these arrestors work and moreover how to connect the three legs. I have been looking into a way to connect an earth from the panels / frames that was never completely connected to the ground rod, i.e. something with an air gap or similar that could only be grounded when and if a sufficient current was put down the cable. That way there would be not permanent connection and it would only be in the event of a strike that there would be someway to dissipate the charge.. Now before anyone else reading this adds that I must be mad or similar, I will in the first instance say that it was my way of not having a direct path to ground for any stray lightning to follow, in much the same way as not being the best grounded array in the area. Currently I have no ground from the array and I am swaying between connecting or not connecting but until I am convinced it is better connected than not I will leave it as it is. If anyone else has a suggestion on a suitable way to ground the array without making it the best target for lightning then I would be very glad to hear it. Regards Bony999 Hi Bony999 The dual lightning arrestors were special designed "floating wires" applications like telephone, 2 floating wires, whereby the both outside connections are for the floating wires and the middle part to earth. Should a lightning strike travel over the wires, the surge may not arrive at the same time to the lightning arrestor, thereby both lines are protected. You could see it as two lightning arrestors packed in one casing. Asking what my friend Google thinks, about placing lightning arrestors parallel, there are some who thinks it could be beneficial to have lots of arrestors parallel. I am concerned about that statement, because of the high current, that the first arrestor conducting will explode and then the next will explode etc. Well only a proper test will give an answer. To answer your idea of having a small cap one , i.e. thus the frames are not connected to earth, thus the lightning will not be attractive to go that route and probably skip your house, but the gap should in my view not be more than 1 mm. But the problem is, you are not according to the law. But if it hits your solar panels frames, the lightning may flow through glass impurities and flows into the wiring to your inverter. Also not a good idea. You see a lightning arrestor is conducting when a strike hits the frames and immediately within nano seconds flows to the 3 spiked very low earth resistance. I don't like lightning, I had a strike on my tennis court, the energy in the surrounding area was enormous. Bert
May 6, 20242 yr Author That is interesting. I googled and they stated that you can place lightning arrestors parallel having a similar characteristics I assume that they must come out of the same production batch, but they should be practical the same. I am going to try it with 20 or 30 x 10 or 20 Kilo Ampere lightning restorers parallel BertKu
May 6, 20242 yr Hi BertKu Although my underrstanding of how these work is limited, I will be very interested to know the outcome of your experiment. If you find it sucessful I would really like some details of how you wire them to get the best results, depending on the results obviously. Regards Bony999
May 7, 20242 yr Author 21 hours ago, bony999 said: Hi BertKu Although my underrstanding of how these work is limited, I will be very interested to know the outcome of your experiment. If you find it sucessful I would really like some details of how you wire them to get the best results, depending on the results obviously. Regards Bony999 Hi Bony999 One cannot use a lightning arrestor over items, like 230VAC application or when the arrestor will damage something when the voltage is dropped to 10 Volt,like in a mains circuit with transformer. Only if the short circuit takes place , that than no equipment is damaged. example: input over an areal, on top of a tower etc, building, boat, routing the lightning to earth. The strike is in bursts normally and as soon it hits the arrestor, within 10 nanosecond, the arrestor shortens to 10 Volt (Siemens most types) and if the current is in bursts, the arrestor recovers at a rise time of 75 Volt/us, thus that is my gamble, that arrestors placed parallel would all conduct practically at the same time. But, it should be the same make and the same model and current ratings. I am gambling that the heat dissipation, if the first one collapses, is not enough to damage the first one, but that the current starts spreading over the multiple arrestors. Hi Bony999 I had a wifi interuption and started all over again, here are both replies One can only use a gassarrestor in an application that the shortening does not damage the application Mounting over the 230 Volt AC is a no go. The working of a lightning arrestor (Siemens small types) the lightning strike drops to 10 Volt over the arrestor and this is within 10 Nanoseconds, Thus the voltage of the strike drops to 10 Volt provided it is within the current rating. The arrestor is conducted . As soon the electrons are discharged the arrestor is opening up at +/-75Volt/uS and then the next burst discharge. When the 75Volt/uS is not reached, the arrestors absorb the next current burst straight away and that means that a second parallel arrestor most likely does not shortens and the first arrestors blows to pieces. The problem is Bony999, I can only tell you if it works, when I get a lightning strike and that should not be happening as the frames are not directly connected to earth but via a series of parallel connected lightning arrestors. I am lower than all the surrounding buildings and lightning goes via the best earth route. A piece of metal on a roof does not attract lightning. Only if it is connected somehow as the best earth route. Bertku
May 12, 20242 yr Author On 2024/04/26 at 10:13 PM, GMAC said: Our towns top electrician has the same theory about earthing outside object as he also said that if it's earth the the lightning will then follow that earthing and damage electronic . He said 90% of electric gate motors that are damage due to lightning all are earths the ones that are not earth last till they wear out . Hi Bonny999 and GMAC Yes I found the right solution. 2 of those parallel will solve the problem at a 2 corners with the solar panels frames proper connected to a 10mm thick (80 mm2) copper welding wire via 4 lightning arrestors parallel each to 3 earthing pins in the ground. Surge protection devices Power supply units Green energy installations, such as photovoltaic and wind energy Potential bonding in telecommunications, railway and pipeline installations Features I imp up to 100 kA In up to 100 kA UL 1449 approved Withstand capability acc. to IEC 61643-11 Customer-specific terminals RoHS-compatible I will approach the committee and ask for approval to place lightning arrestors to be placed between solar panels frame and earth. BertKu
May 14, 20242 yr Author On 2024/05/12 at 2:40 PM, BertKu said: Hi Bonny999 and GMAC Yes I found the right solution. 2 of those parallel will solve the problem at a 2 corners with the solar panels frames proper connected to a 10mm thick (80 mm2) copper welding wire via 4 lightning arrestors parallel each to 3 earthing pins in the ground. Surge protection devices Power supply units Green energy installations, such as photovoltaic and wind energy Potential bonding in telecommunications, railway and pipeline installations Features I imp up to 100 kA In up to 100 kA UL 1449 approved Withstand capability acc. to IEC 61643-11 Customer-specific terminals RoHS-compatible I will approach the committee and ask for approval to place lightning arrestors to be placed between solar panels frame and earth. BertKu I forgot to mention. They are manufcturered by TDK and sold in RSA by Electro......... Surge Arresters for L-N and N-PE Applications TDK has developed a new line of EPCOS surge arresters that are designed especially for AC power line applications based on the IEC lightning protection zone concept. The new arresters meet the requirements for class I, II, and III protection with current capabilities of up to 100 kA for L-N as well as N-PE applications. Regards Bert
May 20, 20242 yr Hi BertKu I have read you last two posts with interest. I have a vaugue idea of the connection method you have detailed but I would be gratful of a bit more information regarding the connections. I assume the 10mm cable is solderd to the first leg of the arrestor but I am unsure how you then parallel the arrestors and then run to the earth pins. I am not an electricain but I have installed my system and it has beeen working fine for over a year now. My biggest concern throughout has been the earthing of the array on the roof. Initially I had it connected to a ground rod but then after looking into arrestors etc I decided not to make the array a good spot for lightning to seek out. I have trawled the internet for solutions and it was you original post that got my attention. If you are able to give more details of your connection method I would be very grateful. Regards Bony999
May 23, 20242 yr Author On 2024/05/20 at 11:11 AM, bony999 said: Hi BertKu I have read you last two posts with interest. I have a vaugue idea of the connection method you have detailed but I would be gratful of a bit more information regarding the connections. I assume the 10mm cable is solderd to the first leg of the arrestor but I am unsure how you then parallel the arrestors and then run to the earth pins. I am not an electricain but I have installed my system and it has beeen working fine for over a year now. My biggest concern throughout has been the earthing of the array on the roof. Initially I had it connected to a ground rod but then after looking into arrestors etc I decided not to make the array a good spot for lightning to seek out. I have trawled the internet for solutions and it was you original post that got my attention. If you are able to give more details of your connection method I would be very grateful. Regards Bony999 Sorry Bony 999, I went down and am only now able to reply. 1) First at all keep your earth pin into the ground, provided it is less the 10 Ohm Otherwise you have to add spikes or relocate them, 2) I took thick copper plumbing pipe and hammer them flat, so that it could withstand high currents and drilled 2 holes and mount them with SS 316 bolts and nuts and a few panels with yellow copper bolts and nuts all together.. so that all the panel frames are one!!. a The 100Ka lightning arrestor is mounted between the one end of all the panels and the one on the other end. . Between the 2 lightning arrestors other ends , I have a 8 mm copper welding cable wire mounted to my earth spikes I have. That is all , Should the lightning find my installation attractive, which is not possible, because I dont think so/ But should I have an hit or a close by hit with high voltage field, it will collapse to earth and the surge is rerouted to earth. Bert
May 23, 20242 yr Hello BertKu dont worry about the time to reply I am never in that much of a rush. I have all of my panels connected together and on the frames with 6 mm earth cable so that all of the panels and all of the mountng are connected from the top to the bottom. I have a 6 mm cable that then runs from the frames the panels are mounted on, to an earth rod in the garden. My interest is how you parallel the arrestors and connect them to the cable. are you able to post a picture of the arrestors in place to give me a better idea of how they are connected both to the cable and the earth? If not don't worry. I am very unfamiliar with the way these devices are connected up and if I am going to try to do the same I want to ensure I wire it correctly as the last thing I want on my room if the lightning. Thanks for the reply regards Bony999
June 2, 20242 yr Author On 2024/05/23 at 4:51 PM, bony999 said: Hello BertKu dont worry about the time to reply I am never in that much of a rush. I have all of my panels connected together and on the frames with 6 mm earth cable so that all of the panels and all of the mountng are connected from the top to the bottom. I have a 6 mm cable that then runs from the frames the panels are mounted on, to an earth rod in the garden. My interest is how you parallel the arrestors and connect them to the cable. are you able to post a picture of the arrestors in place to give me a better idea of how they are connected both to the cable and the earth? If not don't worry. I am very unfamiliar with the way these devices are connected up and if I am going to try to do the same I want to ensure I wire it correctly as the last thing I want on my room if the lightning. Thanks for the reply regards Bony999 Hi Bony999 All lightning arresters have a mounting device where they are fit in. Ask your supplier in my case Electrcomp to email you the details of the device you have selected. i.e. I am going for 100KA TDK Epcos ceramic arrestor, if they can import them in small volumes. Bert
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