Bobster. Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 City Power announced that they are going to be performing an audit of ripple switches. They will inspect, test, and, where necessary, replace. This got me wondering. If the geyser circuit is backed up (mine is, because we have a heat pump rather than use an element), would the pulses that control the ripple switch pass through the inverter? Sure, if it's backed up then your panels are supplying the geyser anyway. Except that in Johannesburg today they probably are not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobster. Posted January 9 Author Share Posted January 9 There is discussion about this in my neck of the woods. People are saying things like "well I can manage my consumption better than City Power can" etc. I suspect that it is very simple, that the by-laws say that you must have a ripple switch between the main breaker and the geyser breaker. If City Power do actually pull out their finger and do this (like they didn't do for the prepaid meter upgrades) then the guys who come to your house can't get bogged down in endless discussions about timer switches and geyserwise controllers and so on. They will just check for conformity with bylaws. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Douw G. Gerber Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 I have the same setup as @Bobster. - also keen to understand how these ripple relays will work with a setup where the geyser breaker is on the back-up loads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eugenevz Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 22 minutes ago, Bobster. said: There is discussion about this in my neck of the woods. People are saying things like "well I can manage my consumption better than City Power can" etc. I suspect that it is very simple, that the by-laws say that you must have a ripple switch between the main breaker and the geyser breaker. If City Power do actually pull out their finger and do this (like they didn't do for the prepaid meter upgrades) then the guys who come to your house can't get bogged down in endless discussions about timer switches and geyserwise controllers and so on. They will just check for conformity with bylaws. I kind of agree with the people that say they can manage their own consumption better than COJ, if the most recent debacles with COJ loadshedding schedules is anything to go by. But then again i understand the need also as so many people just have such a wasteful attitude of "i pay for electricity so i will use electricity" type of thing. Personally i just think it will be an exercise of futility, people will pretend not to be home or actually not being home when they do come by, some will argue with the municipality staff and others will just out right refuse them entry. Not too mention all the delays that will be caused by people like me that will want to verify whether they are actual employees. Side question, did they indicate who would be carrying the costs of these devices if it is found that none are installed or that they have possibly been disabled? JayMardern 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WannabeSolarSparky Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 Are they going to provide you with an ammended COC if they need to install a device? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Douw G. Gerber Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 33 minutes ago, WannabeSolarSparky said: Are they going to provide you with an ammended COC if they need to install a device? Good question Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WannabeSolarSparky Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 1 minute ago, Douw G. Gerber said: Good question Exactly and will these guys/girls coming to do this be suitable qualified to issue said COC Problem is most people will not even be aware of this requirement and will simply allow them to come in and make changes to their electrical system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobster. Posted January 9 Author Share Posted January 9 1 hour ago, Bobster. said: This got me wondering. If the geyser circuit is backed up (mine is, because we have a heat pump rather than use an element), would the pulses that control the ripple switch pass through the inverter? Or even if the geyser is not backed up, properly installed systems will have a device that controls what comes to and from the grid. So how does that work with a ripple switch? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobster. Posted January 9 Author Share Posted January 9 38 minutes ago, WannabeSolarSparky said: Are they going to provide you with an ammended COC if they need to install a device? At this point they are talking only about inspection and free replacement of any devices reported as or found to be duds. They are not changing the DB, and if they just replace anything found to be a dud, they are not changing the house's wiring in any significant way. So is a COC necessary? These devices have always been installed by the City. Was the City supposed to be issuing COCs all this time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobster. Posted January 9 Author Share Posted January 9 (edited) 50 minutes ago, Eugenevz said: Side question, did they indicate who would be carrying the costs of these devices if it is found that none are installed or that they have possibly been disabled? They are silent on that. They did say that any faulty units will be replaced at no cost (OK... no direct cost) to the property owner. And it's hard to imagine that part of the game is not catching out and warning folks who have bypassed or flat out removed a ripple switch. I must confess that I am ignorant of the regulations here. Is every geyser required to have a ripple switch? Every geyser circuit? And what if a granny flat gets built and has it's own geyser? Is one then supposed to notify the City and have them install a ripple switch? I'm not opposed to the idea of ripple switches, but others may differ. It comes down to individual rights V what is best for the City as a whole. Clearly they can and should be used to reduce load at times of high demand. And once upon a time, later than 2000 but before load shedding, they were being used for exactly that. Edited January 9 by Bobster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WannabeSolarSparky Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 9 minutes ago, Bobster. said: These devices have always been installed by the City. Was the City supposed to be issuing COCs all this time? The electricians on the site should be able to answer that, they do/should know the regulations better than me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eugenevz Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 1 hour ago, Bobster. said: They are silent on that. They did say that any faulty units will be replaced at no cost (OK... no direct cost) to the property owner. And it's hard to imagine that part of the game is not catching out and warning folks who have bypassed or flat out removed a ripple switch. I must confess that I am ignorant of the regulations here. Is every geyser required to have a ripple switch? Every geyser circuit? And what if a granny flat gets built and has it's own geyser? Is one then supposed to notify the City and have them install a ripple switch? I'm not opposed to the idea of ripple switches, but others may differ. It comes down to individual rights V what is best for the City as a whole. Clearly they can and should be used to reduce load at times of high demand. And once upon a time, later than 2000 but before load shedding, they were being used for exactly that. About 30 to 60 years ago i guess it was mandatory, not really sure now. I do remember hearing the ripple switch turn on and off in my first place back when loadshedding just started. My concern is, having moved now, that i do not know whether this place has a ripple switch or whether the previous owners removed/disabled it, so i would see it very unfair if they expect us to carry the cost directly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobster. Posted January 9 Author Share Posted January 9 28 minutes ago, Eugenevz said: About 30 to 60 years ago i guess it was mandatory, not really sure now. Well I can remember mine being used by the City in... hmmm... it was post 2000, earlier than 2012. 28 minutes ago, Eugenevz said: I do remember hearing the ripple switch turn on and off in my first place back when loadshedding just started. My concern is, having moved now, that i do not know whether this place has a ripple switch or whether the previous owners removed/disabled it, so i would see it very unfair if they expect us to carry the cost directly It is a mess. There must be many people who, as you did, bought a house and got a COC which they just had to trust. It would be unfair now to penalise those people who acted with honest intent. Of course, anybody the City catches out will just say "well that's how it was. I got a COC." Best solution is for the City to say that you should have one but you don't, so we'll install one right now, free, gratis, and for nothing. Probably all they can do. I'm not saying they will do that, but it seems to me that there is no other way to do it, and if they can make a real difference to demand and thus to shedding then that's not such a bad outcome. But it begs the question: If they were going to install these smart meters that could do load limiting, then why are they now bothering with ripple switches? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WannabeSolarSparky Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 9 minutes ago, Bobster. said: But it begs the question: If they were going to install these smart meters that could do load limiting, then why are they now bothering with ripple switches? Cheaper and quicker to install. Bobster. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scorp007 Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 I cannot talk for other munics but in Tshwane there was a clear circuit provided and the feed from the ripple relay output had to be wired without a connection point in your DB directly via the conduit feeding the geyser It is not about managing the load to the geyser when it suits the consumer. It was meant for the munic to manage their maximum demand as the bulk of the cost to a munic is the maximum power used in say the highest load during about a 20min period in the month. The reason is Eskom did have to provide this high level whenever the munic decided to use this high level even if just for 20min. I would not trust consumers to always ensure their geysers are off during the evening peak. JayMardern 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayMardern Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 5 hours ago, Eugenevz said: I kind of agree with the people that say they can manage their own consumption better than COJ, if the most recent debacles with COJ loadshedding schedules is anything to go by. But then again i understand the need also as so many people just have such a wasteful attitude of "i pay for electricity so i will use electricity" type of thing. That CoJ loadshedding change-and-then-change back was pretty frustrating. I spent hours perfecting my Time-of-Use settings to minimize battery charging at night (targeting 'only' 2-hour load-sheds to allow for lower SoC and capitalize on charging during the day from PV) - only to have to undo it all a month later. Not to mention all the schedules in our loadshedding apps having to change and then change back; the Mrs. thought the last load-shed was an unplanned outage because she was still on the 'new' schedules that got reversed. They absolutely didn't do their research properly. 57 minutes ago, Scorp007 said: I cannot talk for other munics but in Tshwane there was a clear circuit provided and the feed from the ripple relay output had to be wired without a connection point in your DB directly via the conduit feeding the geyser It is not about managing the load to the geyser when it suits the consumer. It was meant for the munic to manage their maximum demand as the bulk of the cost to a munic is the maximum power used in say the highest load during about a 20min period in the month. The reason is Eskom did have to provide this high level whenever the munic decided to use this high level even if just for 20min. I would not trust consumers to always ensure their geysers are off during the evening peak. Agreed with this. As long they don't ripple-relay during the day (since doing so might push load away from PV back to grid for those with solar systems installed! Not that it matters in a rainy day like today ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scorp007 Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 (edited) The bottom line the ripple was to manage peak loads (from 1976 or earlier in Tshwane) and not our own convenience. For that reason we got PV systems. When Eskom had surplus power it fell in disuse in a number of munics. That was also when there was a major drive to electrify areas that had no power. Then we got a power crisis 15 yrs ago and LS ongoing. Edited January 9 by Scorp007 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I84RiS Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 10 hours ago, Bobster. said: City Power announced that they are going to be performing an audit of ripple switches. They will inspect, test, and, where necessary, replace. This got me wondering. If the geyser circuit is backed up (mine is, because we have a heat pump rather than use an element), would the pulses that control the ripple switch pass through the inverter? Sure, if it's backed up then your panels are supplying the geyser anyway. Except that in Johannesburg today they probably are not. I had my ripple control device disabled when I installed the heat pump. It is very bad for power to be cut and restored to a heatpump at random. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scorp007 Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 (edited) 1 hour ago, I84RiS said: I had my ripple control device disabled when I installed the heat pump. It is very bad for power to be cut and restored to a heatpump at random. Interesting comment. I have been using a timer to cut the power to my heat pump as well as all the cuts via LS. My pump has been running trouble free for 12 yrs. This is exceeded a typical life expectancy. Not saying it is because of the timer Edited January 9 by Scorp007 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobster. Posted January 10 Author Share Posted January 10 13 hours ago, I84RiS said: I had my ripple control device disabled when I installed the heat pump. It is very bad for power to be cut and restored to a heatpump at random. I think that's redundant now with all the load shedding. Mine has run in essentially three configurations 1) No timer, no backup power 2) Using the built in timer, no backup power 3) Using the built in timer, now backed up And in September last year it had it's 13th birthday and it just keeps on rolling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eugenevz Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 On 2024/01/09 at 9:29 PM, Scorp007 said: Interesting comment. I have been using a timer to cut the power to my heat pump as well as all the cuts via LS. My pump has been running trouble free for 12 yrs. This is exceeded a typical life expectancy. Not saying it is because of the timer I can only assume I84RiS meant when it gets shutdown mid heating rather than a controlled timer shutting it down. To be fair though, i cannot see that getting variable spikes between 230V and 250V could be good for any electrical device's life span Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scorp007 Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 2 hours ago, Eugenevz said: I can only assume I84RiS meant when it gets shutdown mid heating rather than a controlled timer shutting it down. To be fair though, i cannot see that getting variable spikes between 230V and 250V could be good for any electrical device's life span OK. Point taken but but say the full cycle needs 80min and my timer set for 30min it is still shut down mid cycle. The same when there is LS. In winter a full heating cycle might take up to 150+min depending on the ambient temp. There are many times that I give a quick splash and dash before LS when it is switched off mid cycle by LS. If my unit packs up due to this after 12yrs I won't complain. Not many electronic things these days last 12yrs even if you treat them with TLC. Douw G. Gerber 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I84RiS Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 On 2024/01/09 at 9:29 PM, Scorp007 said: Interesting comment. I have been using a timer to cut the power to my heat pump as well as all the cuts via LS. My pump has been running trouble free for 12 yrs. This is exceeded a typical life expectancy. Not saying it is because of the timer Late to respond, my installer was adamant that poorly timed power cuts are not good for the pump, he was not that concerned about the compressor. He mentioned that he has repaired/replaced a number of heatpump pumps since loadshedding frequencies increased. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scorp007 Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 2 hours ago, I84RiS said: Late to respond, my installer was adamant that poorly timed power cuts are not good for the pump, he was not that concerned about the compressor. He mentioned that he has repaired/replaced a number of heatpump pumps since loadshedding frequencies increased. Thanks for the information. I would not be able to tell how many were perhaps replaced due to installers saving a few $ on the strainer. If we see how many people had pump problems and strainers only fitted during pump replacement gives a good indication. This also includes installers graded by by the manufacturers. Some manufacturers are strict on the requirement to use their graded installers. I think only installers will be able to give an indication how many did not have strainers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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