Sholto Posted April 7, 2018 Share Posted April 7, 2018 Hi All I have an Axpert inverter, (model version M-5k-64-PAR-A). I have two GCLS 6.2KW Litium Ion batteries attached to it, which is charged off a Solar Array of 9x265w Amerisolar Pannels. It’s to power our small household, which is off-grid, and is supplemented by a 6KvA generator as needed. My problem is as follows... The inverter seems to be stopping the charge from the panels. It will be going along nicely on any given day, and then the PV input will drop to 30W, on the back of 0 Amps. The input Voltage also then sticks between 100v to 105v. It will then stay there and not recover. I am at my wits-end, and would appreciate any comment on fixing this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilotfish Posted April 7, 2018 Share Posted April 7, 2018 Does the battery start charging again if you fire up the gennie? (so is it battery issue of inverter issue) Is the charge not being terminated by the battery BMS? If not then maybe your inverter is going into premature float - upgrade the firmware using the patch by Aussies @Coulomb and @weber ; http://forums.aeva.asn.au/viewtopic.php?p=67159#p67159 I would expect your 2.4kWp array to produce around 12kWh on a perfect day, much less on a cloudy/winter day. If you deduct your self consumption then surely you don't have anywhere near enough panel to charge a 12.4kWh battery bank + cater for daytime consumption? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
___ Posted April 7, 2018 Share Posted April 7, 2018 When a Lithium battery goes to float, it takes a while for the voltage to bleed off (unlike a lead acid that gets there within seconds, minutes at most). It could take up to an hour (if there is no load) for it to drop down. It is normal for the charge current to drop to zero, and then pick up again slowly as the voltage gets to float level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coulomb Posted April 8, 2018 Share Posted April 8, 2018 (edited) It does sound like the premature float problem. Why don't Voltronic Power fix this? Their latest attempt to "fix it" seems to be to increase the "qualification time" from 30 seconds to 10 minutes. Perhaps they feel that more than 10 minutes of cloud is impossible. Do you notice that the charge current is low (perhaps due to cloud or shade) for the ten minutes before it stops PV charging? Older firmware (before 72.70) only need 30 seconds of shade, instead of 10 minutes. There is a simple test to convince yourself that you have this problem, described here (though you'll have to fire up your generator): http://forums.aeva.asn.au/viewtopic.php?title=pip4048ms-inverter&p=59896&t=4332#p59896 [ Edit: before 73.00 -> before 72.70 ] Edited April 8, 2018 by Coulomb Edit: before 73.00 -> before 72.70 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sholto Posted April 8, 2018 Author Share Posted April 8, 2018 6 hours ago, Coulomb said: It does sound like the premature float problem. Why don't Voltronic Power fix this? Their latest attempt to "fix it" seems to be to increase the "qualification time" from 30 seconds to 10 minutes. Perhaps they feel that more than 10 minutes of cloud is impossible. Do you notice that the charge current is low (perhaps due to cloud or shade) for the ten minutes before it stops PV charging? Older firmware (before 73.00) only need 30 seconds of shade, instead of 10 minutes. There is a simple test to convince yourself that you have this problem, described here (though you'll have to fire up your generator): http://forums.aeva.asn.au/viewtopic.php?title=pip4048ms-inverter&p=59896&t=4332#p59896 Thanks. I’ll try and get the patch installed, and will let you guys know if all is sorted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sholto Posted April 9, 2018 Author Share Posted April 9, 2018 Hi guys In terms of the cable to use to install the update. This is the current setup at the bottom of the inverter. The RS232 currently engaged there is the communication cable to the batteries. Any recommendation on what cable to use to my computer, and which port to use on the inverter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coulomb Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 55 minutes ago, Sholto said: The RS232 currently engaged there is the communication cable to the batteries. Nothing good will come of connecting the Axpert's RS232 port to the GCLS CAN ports, both of which misuse RJ-45 connectors. Fortunately they use different pins, so no harm should have come from this. Use the cable that came with the Axpert to connect it to the computer, via a USB to RS232 interface. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sholto Posted April 9, 2018 Author Share Posted April 9, 2018 8 minutes ago, Coulomb said: Nothing good will come of connecting the Axpert's RS232 port to the GCLS CAN ports, both of which misuse RJ-45 connectors. Fortunately they use different pins, so no harm should have come from this. Use the cable that came with the Axpert to connect it to the computer, via a USB to RS232 interface. Ok thanks, but which Serial port to use on the Axpert? The serial Ports there are designated for "Parrallel Connection" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilotfish Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 18 minutes ago, Sholto said: Ok thanks, but which Serial port to use on the Axpert? See attached document regarding update procedure - this is for previous firmware but the procedure is unlikely to have changed. Coulomb - Patch Instructions.docx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sholto Posted April 9, 2018 Author Share Posted April 9, 2018 OK, in terms of cabling, it should then be as follows/ Computer USB female to USB male connected to RJ45 female, to RJ45 male connected to serial (this being what I received with the inverter), into one of the "Parrallell" ports on the inverter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
___ Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 Damn that sounds seriously confused... :-) No, RS232 tells you a number of things. The important ones here is that it is a basic three wire system (common, transmit and receive), and that it uses 10V to signal a zero and 0V to signal a one. The voltage level is important, that means you cannot just connect anything to anything and not expect things to break in weird and interesting ways. USB on the other hand operates on 5V levels. You get two kinds of USB-serial converter, both operate on the same three-wire principle (common, transmit, receive), but the voltage levels differ. Some are so-called TTL-level, either 5V or 3.3V, and the sense is inverted in terms of what is a zero and what is a one. Again, you can't just wire that to an RS232 port, you need something in the middle to do the conversion. Then it gets even more complicated, because the Axpert surfaces the RS232 port as an RJ45 plug, so basically they put the three wires that make up that serial connection into an RJ45 plug instead of a more common DB9 or DB25. And then, just to really confuse the heck out of you, they made the parallel-connection cables look like DB9 (they are not, I see three rows of pins). So forget about those "parallel connection" sockets. These are not the droids you are looking for *insert hand wave*. They are RS485 anyway... another signalling standard. So what you need is a cable that does RS232, but connects the TX, RX and GND pins to the right (non-standard) pins on an RJ45 connector. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilotfish Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 34 minutes ago, Sholto said: Computer USB female to USB male connected to RJ45 female, to RJ45 male connected to serial (this being what I received with the inverter), into one of the "Parrallell" ports on the inverter? eish You should have received a cable like this with your Axpert inverter... If you have an old computer with a serial port then go ahead and use the above cable to do your upgrade, however most computers no longer have a serial port in which case you will use the USB port and require this... USB to D9 serial adapter ... This is an electronic device that converts between serial and USB protocols, not a couple of arbitrary cables smacked together to give you the right shaped plugs on each end! EDIT for clarity - plug the above USB to Serial converter into the Axpert serial cable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sholto Posted April 9, 2018 Author Share Posted April 9, 2018 Even more confused now... :-( Where do I get the cable you recommend at the bottom of the post? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sholto Posted April 9, 2018 Author Share Posted April 9, 2018 2 minutes ago, pilotfish said: eish You should have received a cable like this with your Axpert inverter... If you have an old computer with a serial port then go ahead and use the above cable to do your upgrade, however most computers no longer have a serial port in which case you will use the USB port and require this... USB to D9 serial adapter ... This is an electronic device that converts between serial and USB protocols, not a couple of arbitrary cables smacked together to give you the right shaped plugs on each end! Ah, ok... So I would need to unplug my batteries communication cable. Would that affect anything, especailly if I wanted to do real time monitoring? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sholto Posted April 9, 2018 Author Share Posted April 9, 2018 Any idea on where I can get the USB to serial adapter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilotfish Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 2 minutes ago, Sholto said: Would that affect anything, especailly if I wanted to do real time monitoring? It is only required during the upgrade and would then be disconnected. 3 minutes ago, Sholto said: So I would need to unplug my batteries communication cable. I am not familiar with your batteries but I believe Coulomb mentioned that you cannot communicate with them via the Axpert RS232 port 1 hour ago, Coulomb said: Nothing good will come of connecting the Axpert's RS232 port to the GCLS CAN ports, both of which misuse RJ-45 connectors. Fortunately they use different pins, so no harm should have come from this. The GCLS is using CAN Bus protocol and Axpert is using RS232 protocol on the RJ45 port. 5 minutes ago, Sholto said: Any idea on where I can get the USB to serial adapter? PC shop - Google USB to Serial adapter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sholto Posted April 9, 2018 Author Share Posted April 9, 2018 10 minutes ago, pilotfish said: The GCLS is using CAN Bus protocol and Axpert is using RS232 protocol on the RJ45 port. Just as a matter of interest. Is there any way to communicate between these two protocols? Or, is that cable between the Axpert inverter and GCLS batteries actually not serving any purpose? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilotfish Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 Not that I know of but @plonkster and others will know much about this subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coulomb Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 1 hour ago, Sholto said: Just as a matter of interest. Is there any way to communicate between these two protocols? In theory, it's nearly always possible to build some sort of bridge between two computers speaking different protocols and (as here) different hardware interfaces. But in practice, you'd leave that to the side trying hardest to enter the market. In this case, I'd say it is up to the battery manufacturer to support the Axpert charger, if and only if they see a big return on that considerable investment. 1 hour ago, Sholto said: Or, is that cable between the Axpert inverter and GCLS batteries actually not serving any purpose? It serves no purpose. And if you were less lucky, there is a chance that it could have caused damage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sholto Posted April 9, 2018 Author Share Posted April 9, 2018 5 minutes ago, Coulomb said: In theory, it's nearly always possible to build some sort of bridge between two computers speaking different protocols and (as here) different hardware interfaces. But in practice, you'd leave that to the side trying hardest to enter the market. In this case, I'd say it is up to the battery manufacturer to support the Axpert charger, if and only if they see a big return on that considerable investment. It serves no purpose. And if you were less lucky, there is a chance that it could have caused damage. Well, so much for the idiot installers... Thanks. I'll pull that thing out as soon as I get home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
___ Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 2 hours ago, Sholto said: Just as a matter of interest. Is there any way to communicate between these two protocols? Yes. The Victron kit also interconnects various different bits, some running CAN-bus (MPPTs, batteries), some running serial (vedirect is serial), and some running RS485 (VEBus is RS485 plus two extra signal wires). We have a control panel in the middle that brings it all together. I believe that's one of the selling points on the latest ICC software... they can now talk to PylonTech and BlueNova batteries, but I don't think they use CAN-bus so you are probably out of luck there. Once your BMS and your inverter can talk to each other, the battery can tell the inverter what its real state of charge is. It can also communicate charge and discharge limit... although a discharge limit is of no use to an Axpert as it's not a true Hybrid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coulomb Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 7 hours ago, plonkster said: Once your BMS and your inverter can talk to each other, the battery can tell the inverter what its real state of charge is. It can also... All true. But the Axpert has to be ready for a BMS as well. I'm not aware of any command that would set the SOC, for example. Despite Voltronic Power claiming that they support Lithium Ion batteries. They still seem to be stuck in the lead age :-O Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coulomb Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 8 hours ago, Sholto said: idiot installers... It's extra sad when the so-called experts get things wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
___ Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 6 hours ago, Coulomb said: All true. But the Axpert has to be ready for a BMS as well. I'm not aware of any command that would set the SOC, for example. Despite Voltronic Power claiming that they support Lithium Ion batteries. They still seem to be stuck in the lead age :-O Yup, I was talking in theory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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