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infini E 5.5 Fan fault


Irfan Khalid

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  • 3 years later...

Hello.

 

With the infinisolar+ 3kW, we recently had the same problem here, in the Reunion Island : Both 2 fans are running Ok but fan fault (Error 27) displayed every time the fans must be running.

After investigations and disapointments (during 1 week), I finally decided measuring voltages (at least on both the 2 fan connectors, and finally discovered (after inverting their connector position respectively) that Fan #1 might be really faulty (whatever the sockect position I would plug it to). (and even if both fans were always turning well simultaneously, and at same speed). 👍

Indeed, the reading of tachymeter #1 (Voltage beteween black and Yellow leads) never changed (!) , even when the fans are turning full speed.

 

I have noticed that the original reference of the 2 fans is now obsolete (Brand ADDA / réf. : AD0812XB-A73GL), even if our inverter is only few month older than 2 years !!), and no store to buy Qty :2 which displays the folowwing specs 80mm / 12V / 3 leads / 4200 RPM / 57 CFM.

 

Here's my question : Does the board only uses this third wire (tachymeter) to control if the fan "took off" correctly and is now running ? Or has the code been programmed in order beeing accurately able to compare the exact RPM obtained with the Input Voltage/Speed that has just been demanded between the 12V "power" two leads ??(between black and red leads).

 

I'm asking this because I'm not sure if I could succesfully replace these two obsolete fans (or not ?) with other models running 2000 rpm, 3000 rpm, 5100rpm (instead of this original 4200 rpm / in this product case).

 

Hoping (at least) that someone already tested the fans replacement on this unit, and could advise about which FAN model to buy (with approximately 57 CFM air flow / or more).

 

Thanks in advance for your help...

 

Lionel.

 

 

 

Edited by Lionel RUN
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12 hours ago, Lionel RUN said:

Does the board only uses this third wire (tachometer) to control if the fan "took off" correctly and is now running ?

It's been a long time since I looked at Infini firmware, and I'd rather not revisit them, but that's what Axperts do (just check that the fan isn't locked rotor), and I expect the Infinis to be similar.

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16 hours ago, Coulomb said:

It's been a long time since I looked at Infini firmware, and I'd rather not revisit them, but that's what Axperts do (just check that the fan isn't locked rotor), and I expect the Infinis to be similar.

Thanks so much Coulomb for your always kindly shared experience + your immediate response here.

I finally found + ordered Qty:2 , 3800 RPM / 4 wire fan (actual speed could then be only 10% less than the original 4200 RPM with 3 wires) in order to limit the risk of erroneous "fan fault error" display + immediate system shutdown (!!)

The different number of wires on the spare fans should not be a problem here either: Indeed, the absence of a pin for their fourth wire (PWM), on the only 3 pins headers of the board should still allow their speed to be "voltage controlled" (by the board), instead of being "PWM controlled" by the fan chip (since the board doesn't have a PWM speed control system)...
Nevertheless, I'll have to reposition correctly the new fans sockets inside the old connectors to make it conform to the reality of the board.

But, in the meantime, I will of course try to find a used fan (the slowest one possible), in order to do some different additional tests, and to be able to, or not, confirm your expectation above...

Respectfully.

Lionel.

P.S. : new fans are 92mm (instead of 80mm original). An other detail I will be obliged to deal with (And I'll share if problem)...

Edited by Lionel RUN
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  • 4 weeks later...

Hi Irfan and Lionel,

I have a simmilar error 27 fault on my 7 year old infini 3kw plus have you been able to fix your fault. Lionel, did your DIY exchange of fans do the trick??

This type of error 27 Fan Fault seems to be a common fault on a otherwise  reliable inverter!

Regards

Green Bum

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi Green Bum, Hi everyone.

Sorry for huge delay because of emergencies (+ mild COVID) recently.

Yes, the replacement worked great.

I changed only one of the two fans : i.e. only the "dead" one (wich had a true "speed feed back failure"). Even if it was still running marvelously. https://eu.mouser.com/datasheet/2/6/AD0812XB-A73GL(N)-A-1155697.pdf

I replaced it with a 9.2 cm diameter fan (because I coudn't find 8cm anymore). The important thing to be respected here  is the nominal air flow only (not the RPM indeed). Here, 68CFM for the spare one VERSUS 57CFM for original fans. (spare one https://www.delta-fan.com/Download/Spec/AUB0912VH-CX09.pdf  ).

Please note that here, I prefered boring 4 new holes in the plastic of the single spare fan, than modifying 4 small holes for screws + 1 big hole for air in the inverter casing.

I agree that the too small original inlet hole of thet 8cm fans could have been a problem here though, but it might compensated with the better airflow of the 9.2cm spare fan.

Also note that I finally decided to be flipping both the two fans upside down (in order them to be extracting the inside air instead of blowing outside moist and dust directly onto the boards and connectors, without inlet air filters).

Indeed, I also discovered that boards and connectors were already oxydized (in front of the fans flow) after 2 years only (!) Here, the filters are mounted on top of the inverter, and to me, filters means inlet of course, not air outlets.

As I said, check the air flow on every fans datasheet and it's wires colours (because you might be using a 4 wires fan with no problem, after knowing which wire to be plugged to where).

As I planned, once I was totally sure that the machine was fixed, I also tested with very slow fans, in order to make sure that the software of this device was intelligent enough to be accurateley checking the speed of the two fans separately.

I also tried manually while the fan was turning between 0 and 100 rpm only : the results are as followed.

 

- The system only checks if the fans are emmitting few pulses (no matter the frequency of the pulses).

- You can block one fan completly for few seconds with no error message at all (for approximately 15 seconds continuously, if I remember correctly) : And there will be no "fan fault" message at all since the fan can perform at least few turns avery 15 seconds.

- If you exceed 15 seconds with one fan blocked, the system then consider that you have a fan failure of course (even if temperature is still very low).

- Once the fan fault (ERROR 27) is triggered, the current switched to OFF, and the beep sound has been warning you for approximately one minute, the system might try to recover from this event by itself... Switching the main relay ON again, but the fault might resume several times, even if the fan is no more blocked. It seems that the error stays in memory even if there is no more fault actually. 🤔

Scary, but I needed to check it several times (in order to know that blocking a fan was not dangerous). I'm happy because now I know.

This several reseting procedure of the inverter could be dangerous though : especially for computers, old refrigerators, congelators, or TVs because no appliances like beeing turned ON and OFF so many times. Not dangerous for the inverter of course. Because he must be designed for voltage failures of course.

 

If the Error 27 fault is occuring while you're "playing" with faulty fans, or manually blocking or slowing down the fans (I had fun to play with) I would recommend to switch the infinisolar OFF right after the fan fault is  triggered ON. The fault would be then reset and the inverter will then start again with no more fault.

 

Hoping that these informations will help the maximum of users. Special thanks again to Coulomb who helped us a lot about informing that the standard codes only check for lack of pulse from fans (instead of searching for fan unexpected decelerations).

 

Have a nice Week-End everybody.

 

Lionel

P.S. : All you needed to know about how to connect a 4 pins fan to these original 3 wires fans... Always check colours of wires correspondance on each fan datasheet (because pin out positions may vary from the main standard computer boards.

https://www.quora.com/How-do-I-connect-a-4-pin-fan-to-an-old-3-pin-motherboard/answer/Janis-Baumanis?ch=10&oid=258771781&share=42265742&srid=uoWx47&target_type=answer

 

Edited by Lionel RUN
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Hi Lionel,

Thank you for the detailed feedback! Voltronic (Infini) changed the fan on later models to a 92mm!

I live in Cape Town and will start the search for your generic (Delta) fan. I am a technical novice but appreciate your inputs.

Regards,

Green bum

Where would you recommend me to find the fan??

 

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On 2022/07/15 at 8:28 PM, Lionel RUN said:

Hi Green Bum, Hi everyone.

Sorry for huge delay because of emergencies (+ mild COVID) recently.

Yes, the replacement worked great.

I changed only one of the two fans : i.e. only the "dead" one (wich had a true "speed feed back failure"). Even if it was still running marvelously. https://eu.mouser.com/datasheet/2/6/AD0812XB-A73GL(N)-A-1155697.pdf

I replaced it with a 9.2 cm diameter fan (because I coudn't find 8cm anymore). The important thing to be respected here  is the nominal air flow only (not the RPM indeed). Here, 68CFM for the spare one VERSUS 57CFM for original fans. (spare one https://www.delta-fan.com/Download/Spec/AUB0912VH-CX09.pdf  ).

Please note that here, I prefered boring 4 new holes in the plastic of the single spare fan, than modifying 4 small holes for screws + 1 big hole for air in the inverter casing.

I agree that the too small original inlet hole of thet 8cm fans could have been a problem here though, but it might compensated with the better airflow of the 9.2cm spare fan.

Also note that I finally decided to be flipping both the two fans upside down (in order them to be extracting the inside air instead of blowing outside moist and dust directly onto the boards and connectors, without inlet air filters).

Indeed, I also discovered that boards and connectors were already oxydized (in front of the fans flow) after 2 years only (!) Here, the filters are mounted on top of the inverter, and to me, filters means inlet of course, not air outlets.

As I said, check the air flow on every fans datasheet and it's wires colours (because you might be using a 4 wires fan with no problem, after knowing which wire to be plugged to where).

As I planned, once I was totally sure that the machine was fixed, I also tested with very slow fans, in order to make sure that the software of this device was intelligent enough to be accurateley checking the speed of the two fans separately.

I also tried manually while the fan was turning between 0 and 100 rpm only : the results are as followed.

 

- The system only checks if the fans are emmitting few pulses (no matter the frequency of the pulses).

- You can block one fan completly for few seconds with no error message at all (for approximately 15 seconds continuously, if I remember correctly) : And there will be no "fan fault" message at all since the fan can perform at least few turns avery 15 seconds.

- If you exceed 15 seconds with one fan blocked, the system then consider that you have a fan failure of course (even if temperature is still very low).

- Once the fan fault (ERROR 27) is triggered, the current switched to OFF, and the beep sound has been warning you for approximately one minute, the system might try to recover from this event by itself... Switching the main relay ON again, but the fault might resume several times, even if the fan is no more blocked. It seems that the error stays in memory even if there is no more fault actually. 🤔

Scary, but I needed to check it several times (in order to know that blocking a fan was not dangerous). I'm happy because now I know.

This several reseting procedure of the inverter could be dangerous though : especially for computers, old refrigerators, congelators, or TVs because no appliances like beeing turned ON and OFF so many times. Not dangerous for the inverter of course. Because he must be designed for voltage failures of course.

 

If the Error 27 fault is occuring while you're "playing" with faulty fans, or manually blocking or slowing down the fans (I had fun to play with) I would recommend to switch the infinisolar OFF right after the fan fault is  triggered ON. The fault would be then reset and the inverter will then start again with no more fault.

 

Hoping that these informations will help the maximum of users. Special thanks again to Coulomb who helped us a lot about informing that the standard codes only check for lack of pulse from fans (instead of searching for fan unexpected decelerations).

 

Have a nice Week-End everybody.

 

Lionel

P.S. : All you needed to know about how to connect a 4 pins fan to these original 3 wires fans... Always check colours of wires correspondance on each fan datasheet (because pin out positions may vary from the main standard computer boards.

https://www.quora.com/How-do-I-connect-a-4-pin-fan-to-an-old-3-pin-motherboard/answer/Janis-Baumanis?ch=10&oid=258771781&share=42265742&srid=uoWx47&target_type=answer

 

Hi Lionel,

I have been thinking about your top down cooling solution, but it is keeping me awake! 

1. I think except as acting as air outlet, the mesh filter at the top of the machine is there to keep stuff from falling into the the inverter and potentially causing BIG problems

2. Obviously the warm air will move upwards, with you forcing it the other way, I wonder how much cooling will be sacrificed??

3. I am with you regarding the "moisture damage"   and problems with the dust.... I am looking at installing a long sock or stocking "filter" below the intake to try and provide some filtration.

Best,

Green Bum

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Hi Green Bum.

 

After searching everywhere on the net, and understanding that similar brand new fans could take a long time to be available (and I wasn't even sure if the inverter would accept them as a solution to the problem), I finally called half a dozen local computer stores :

None of them had anything similar to what I needed, but the 7th store proposed me some very cheap ones (?)

I bought two (used) fans from them. In fact, in addition of brand new computers, they also test junk PC parts and sell them cheap (for a second life).

About your thought about "natural" down-up hot air convection for the components cooling effect, indeed this had been my first concern to be respecting... I first thought about placing the two fans on top of the unit with flow upward (with a pair of of additionnal DIY extra long 3 wires connectors) + moving the 2 filters from top to the bottom...

But once you will be playing with the fans and checking accurately the displayed "diving" temperature (on your PC application with USB chord) + the hot flow sensed in your hand (down the unit / every time the fans are activated), then, you'll understand how these little fans are way more efficient than natural convection.

 

On the other hand, if you try to vaccuum clean your upper filters (at least once or twice every year), then you will have build an always very efficient "two-ways" cooling system :

1) down>up when power(s) and temperature(s) are low.

2) up>down (with fans) when natural convection is no more the convenient solution.

Personnaly. Since I have seen (and fixed) the oxidation on boards + connectors, in front of the fans, I definately prefer altering (a tiny bit may be ?) the efficiency of the fan flow, than risking some "programmed" bigger problems.

 

Please note that in case the efficiency of "contra-convectional-fans" is not enough (opposeded to your local hot temperature in summer), a repeatedly ERROR 06 (= overheats) will always let you the interesting opportunity to check (more accurately) how better the original flow sense  could be (i.e. : original down>up = convectional)... 😉

 

Please Green Bum, would you tell us when you're done with this Error 27 problem... (whatever the airflow sense that you'll finally choose).

 

And don't forget to double check the colours of the wires on each datasheet before connecting the new fan...

P.S. Normally, I would expect that you only have one single fan concerned with the problem... Mine was the left one (Connector number one).

 

Lionel.

Edited by Lionel RUN
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  • 4 weeks later...

Hi Lionel,

No more BEEEEEEP  Fault code 27 alarms! I managed to get 2 Delta fans also (used) through a contact in Germany. THANK YOU for sharing the Delta specs!

I would like to make a contribution that will benefit others using this Voltronic inverter branded as Infini, Replus I believe Giant Power IGS 3000 (in Australia) etc.

The cooling system is sub-system, on top of the the heat management system. If the heat rises to high a fault code 7 will be displayed and the load switched off.

This active cooling  with fans seems to be vulnerable to either fans giving problems or the the feedback system (3rd wire). I have battled to find replacement fans. The original ADDA fans are expensive, difficult, and slow to import furthermore I could not find a generic alternatives  in South Africa.

A new discovery while waiting for my replacement fan. I decided to cut and bridge my 3rd yellow feedback wire from my "working" nr. 1 fan to the nr. 2 fan. My nr. 2 was still running be giving a error 27 Fault code. After bridging no more fault code! I realize this is a short term and somewhat risky solution but valuable if you are stuck ! 

 I would like to explore alternatives that would open up more options to manage this cooling sub system in terms of the feedback loop and different fans that can be used

  1. If you split the ground and 12V wirers leading to the nr. 1 and 2 fans and simply placed two cheap pc fans at the top of the inverter you should be able to use almost any fans to move the air in combination to achieve the "56CFM" required
  2. If I was able to "trick" the system in believing the nr.2 fan was running as required could one make a plan to provide this signal in some other way? Could one use a timer based or permanently running fan to do the cooling?
  3. I started thinking of ways to change the cooling into a "passive" cooling system,  increasing the cooling surface, using liquid cooling, using a convection system to draw/force air through the heatsinks  etc.

My inverter is has already paid itself so I am more comfortable to start playing with alternative answers to this challenge.

Green Bum

 

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Hi Lionel,

One question, i find my my new fan "lazy" in starting up, it takes a second or two in response to loads to start up. It will typically oscillate back and forward and then get going while my Nr.1 fan just gets going without the same hesitation. I tested the new fan on a 12V battery and no problem, got going without hesitation.

I have not swopped the connectors of NR. 1 and 2 around to see if i get the same hesitation but will try this later.. Have you experienced this "hesitation"?

Regarding the change in direction of  the fans, I live about 40km from the see, I checked for oxidation but this did not seem to be a problem, only the dust issue... I have decided for the time being to leave it as is.

Regards,

Godfried

Green Bum

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Hi Green Bum.

And I'm very glad that it worked for you too !👍

Yes, I've experienced the same exact "hesitation" with the new fan. (compared to the shorter start-up, on both the two old ones).

I then tested all fans on a 12V Batt of course, and checked that starts were very frank for all of them then.

This led me installing the Voltmeter on both their two board connectors...

Here, the Voltage is not applied at full power within a fingersnap time. The system delivers a "slow" voltage ramp, to allow the fans to accelerate very smoothly. It seems that the designers liked this slow and precise increase in fan frequency sound. 😃(even if this design could only be a nice "fancy"?). Either way, acceleration and deceleration are still conducted smoothly here.

The longer hesitation on the new product(s) might just be due to a different minimum Voltage for starting (each specific charachteristics regarding each model respectively). But don't worry too much about the delay here, because I've also tested leaving the new one locked for few seconds.

Here the result : there's always a "wait and try again" feature, designed in all fans. In the case of a fan locked issue, the fan itself will detect the overcurrent (on its own), and then it will shut-off and be waiting for 2 seconds prior performing another start attempt again (in order to avoid burning their components + coils I think).

Even if you test blocking of the new fan at start up (with your fingers only), then wait for the "auto-shut-down" to be active, and then realease the fan, you can see that the Voltage applyed by the board has already increased a lot, and the next attempt will be achived with no hesitation at all.

In the mean time, a single artificially locked session with the new fan (though detected by the inverter system of course) wasn't enough time to trigger the fan fault error. The system needs to detect a fan blocked for approximately 10 seconds before deciding there's a cooling issue + total shut down. (if I'm remembering it accurately ?)

About the oxydation issue, please, try checking the female connectors of the fans as well, and make sure there's no "green" on the lead ends.

Cheers, and have a good day Green Bum.

Edited by Lionel RUN
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Hi Lionel,

bad news! today my first fan fault error with the new fan!

I think my problem is the feedback and therefore decided to split the cooling and feedback systems. 

a) Cooling now done with the new Delta fan + (for insurance) a cheap 80mm computer 2 wire fan, both running of the nr. 2 board connector.

b) Feedback system, the yellow feedback wire for connector nr. 2 now coming from the bridged yellow feedback wire from board connector nr. 1, I don't recall ever finding a stagnant fan during a fan fault alarm. Even though the biggest risk would be a fan not starting up, my fault seems to be triggered while the fan is running????

                                                                    A Few Observations!

1. I have still not exchanged the nr.1 and 2 connectors on the board to see if the voltage output is the same. You mention,  "This led me installing the Voltmeter on both their two board connectors..." I presume you got a similar output and that the slow "take of" for the Delta fan was not due to a lower output. 

3. I am hoping that drawing power for two fans from the one board connector is not bad for the chip!!

4. It seems the fans are triggered by a heat sensor and a sudden increase in load irrespective of heat.

5. I wonder if one would be able to use the current fan power-output to switch a relay and an external 12V power supply to run the fans? I realize you will not get the variable speed but I would prefer the crisp start-up and the option to use more fans

Cheers

Green Bum

 

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Hello Green Bum.

 

Sorry for delay...

 

And sorry about the bad news. Did you try replacing old ADDA fan #1 too ? With the second spare Fan (Delta / used too) that you just received ?

Who knows, may be, both the two old ADDA fans were dying at the same moment ? That wouldn't surprise me at all.

I have been testing several things with the use of :

- a borrowed common and cheap single tool a hair blower set @ low temperature)

- an infrared thermometer 

- a PC connected to the unit (in order to understand what was the displayed temperature connected too ?)

  OR

- with the same air blower (set @ full power / without the thermometer and PC / in order to trigger the air fans  -only when I wanted-  while scrutating their take-off very accurately).

Here are facts that I could discover :

A) the fan fault "error 27" is being triggered by either a lack of feedback from connector #1 OR from connector #2. So your option about creating a false square wave time based signal towards the middle pin could probably work of course, but, in my own opinion, this would be technologically diminishing the entire quality of the product, instead of an eventual improvement. Indeed, any future failure on this "bridged feed-back" fan, including a dead animal blocking it (or a faulty connector only) could then lead to a locked fan for months (before you would notice it), especially during winter + low currents, and this would age the inverter components unusefully.

I think that cleaning the air filters regularly + always having a used + very cheap (and checked) spare fan (ready for replacements) is a less dangerous solution to this fan problem.

B ) When the BATT charging circuit + the load output circuit are both functionning at low level, only the temperature of the heat sensors beeing tracked  (installed mostly on heat dissipators) could be triggering the fans start. 

C) The temperature that is important (and that is actually beeing displayed on your computer, when connected) is the highest temperature (measured from all the 5 or 6 different thermistors-sensors spreaded up in the unit).

D) It seems that every single temperature sensor of the unit can then be individually involved in the in the triggering of the fans (i.e. the hotest one) : The warmest sensor will start them up, when warmer than 40°C (if my memory is good), and the last warmest one will stop them as well, after the cooling down session (after all of them are below 35°C, if I remember it correctly).

E) There's never any "five-seconds-emergency" for the fans to be starting-up, because the heat dissipators are big enough to allow temperature inertia. That's why even a 5 seconds delay on a fan take-off would never be any problem (as long as it would be starting at last). And this must be the reason why the constructor designed such a big delay prior sending the fan fault "error 27" to the system.

 

About your 5 (or 4* ?) observations / questions :

1) I Only have one voltmeter, and it seems to me that the fan voltages were applied and increased at the same rate (approximately) on both the two connectors (can not be sure though). I assume you're right, saying that the lazyest take off is only due to the fan model itself only. (easy to check though, If you have any lab voltage regulator, you could just experience it, connecting all the fans in parrallel onto the same two leads (and increase it slowly from 0V to 12V...).

2*) Where did you hide your second* question Green Bum ?😄

3) Too much current from one single connector ? That's exactly what I didn't want to experience because this unit belongs to my neighbour and I couldn't risk any endangering technique.

4) I used a hair dryer at night (no Batt charging current) at full power (a dryer as a "big load") every time I wanted to trigger the fans (with a big enough output power), or, at medium-warm temperature, every time I wanted to test any specific heat sensor (beeing tracked on computer display) + trigger the fans with the temperature way instead. Both fans seems always to be driven synchronically + at the same Voltage (a cheap design here😉 because they could had been driven at some different speed from each other, depending on the measured Temps and currents). 

5) Why is it threatening you ?? did you ever encounter the overheat fault with clean fans + clean air filters ?

Edited by Lionel RUN
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