Hello all,

I suppose that it mightve been easier to enquire about each question separately though both questions may possibly have a common denominator?

As an Electrician, who also works on electronics as a hobby of sorts; the underlying concept of theorem seems to be a bit more complicated and/or perhaps there is a variable that I might have overlooked?

Here goes: the general consensus is that LED lights/lamps reduce power consumption by a significant margin, and while I might be inclined to agree, there seems to be one particular problem that somehow diminishes the potential advantage. I have not seen to date an LED light/lamp that does not alter or rather lower power factor to a significant degree.

The first thought that might come to mind as an inexpensive fix is to add a capacitor or two; but this is not always practical, nor possible, where the two most common household electrics are primarily resistive or inductive loads —-or—- a combination of both. A temporary solution might involve a capacitor bank of sorts. To some degree it might be helpful in modifying a very low, lagging PF (0.60) to something more practical (0.80) for example. Electronics have improved to the extent that a PF of (1.00) is fairly common, at least as far as resistive loads, and a decent number of switch mode power supplies are concerned .

I have reason to believe that the local utility company might inflate overall usage as a result, but by how much? I haven’t the slightest idea. I have enquired about this with utility personnel but I am not certain that they would be particularly forthcoming on the matter…

The next question regarding Lutron wireless switches, such as the Lutron Caseta, if familiar. To be completely honest, I have not had any particular issues with them; for the most part, they work very well, and in the instances where one might have quite a number of pocket doors, you can mount the remote next to the door frame and install a standard switch bezel with one of their kits. The kits are relatively reasonable; the nice thing is that you would be very hard pressed to see any difference, you can install them in a number of ways and in different configurations. If you were so inclined to have a 3way switch, you could do so, with out installing any additional wires. The remote switch uses a button cell and I cannot remember when I had to replace the battery. All in all a great product… yes, they do have a wireless interconnect, if you want to access your Lutron device via your smartphone. I have a few, but I do not fancy the idea of the whole smarthouse, or whatever it is called. Sadly the Caseta line is slowly being replaced with another by Lutron and if wanted another Caseta product; i.e: lights, dimmers, ceiling fans, audio and so forth, the options are limited: eBay, maybe Amazon but I haven’t seen them in the hardware stores in a while.

Because I have an old house, that is just over 190 years old, and do not fancy tearing apart the walls just because; in this instance I had no other choice. Pocket doors are… well a love hate relationship especially if they get stuck, or fall off of their track et cetera. I was just curious about any similar switches that are not required to be on a server or network, that looks relatively decent and works just as well. Any suggestions are greatly appreciated .

thank you all in advance ,

_Loch

2 hours ago, Loch said:

The first thought that might come to mind as an inexpensive fix is to add a capacitor or two

I suspect capacitors will have little effect on an LED driver:

Apologies for the poor photograph

This LED bulb does not have a driver, it has a a few resistors in it and nothing other.

for example, if we take a standard bridge rectifier, which essentially demonstrates the basic design and function of a diode; which in turn demonstrates the same basic function of a Light Emitting Diode (LED), what we might expect to see is that ripple; or in other words where a LED would blink at a frequency that the naked eye cannot perceive.

if we were to record a television screen, computer monitor etc, it would in essence blink.

That is the reason for smothing capacitors to reduce that ripple, where a bridge rectifier (4 diodes) could not do without additional components.

The light bulb for example, does not have enough space for smoothing capacitors; monitors and televisions sets built on a budget may not even use a dedicated driver simply because the human eye cannot distinguish the difference.

Thank you for the suggestion. If I might enquire, what do you suppose causes the shift in power factor?

4 hours ago, Loch said:

Hello all,

I suppose that it mightve been easier to enquire about each question separately though both questions may possibly have a common denominator?

As an Electrician, who also works on electronics as a hobby of sorts; the underlying concept of theorem seems to be a bit more complicated and/or perhaps there is a variable that I might have overlooked?

Here goes: the general consensus is that LED lights/lamps reduce power consumption by a significant margin, and while I might be inclined to agree, there seems to be one particular problem that somehow diminishes the potential advantage. I have not seen to date an LED light/lamp that does not alter or rather lower power factor to a significant degree.

The first thought that might come to mind as an inexpensive fix is to add a capacitor or two; but this is not always practical, nor possible, where the two most common household electrics are primarily resistive or inductive loads —-or—- a combination of both. A temporary solution might involve a capacitor bank of sorts. To some degree it might be helpful in modifying a very low, lagging PF (0.60) to something more practical (0.80) for example. Electronics have improved to the extent that a PF of (1.00) is fairly common, at least as far as resistive loads, and a decent number of switch mode power supplies are concerned .

I have reason to believe that the local utility company might inflate overall usage as a result, but by how much? I haven’t the slightest idea. I have enquired about this with utility personnel but I am not certain that they would be particularly forthcoming on the matter…

The next question regarding Lutron wireless switches, such as the Lutron Caseta, if familiar. To be completely honest, I have not had any particular issues with them; for the most part, they work very well, and in the instances where one might have quite a number of pocket doors, you can mount the remote next to the door frame and install a standard switch bezel with one of their kits. The kits are relatively reasonable; the nice thing is that you would be very hard pressed to see any difference, you can install them in a number of ways and in different configurations. If you were so inclined to have a 3way switch, you could do so, with out installing any additional wires. The remote switch uses a button cell and I cannot remember when I had to replace the battery. All in all a great product… yes, they do have a wireless interconnect, if you want to access your Lutron device via your smartphone. I have a few, but I do not fancy the idea of the whole smarthouse, or whatever it is called. Sadly the Caseta line is slowly being replaced with another by Lutron and if wanted another Caseta product; i.e: lights, dimmers, ceiling fans, audio and so forth, the options are limited: eBay, maybe Amazon but I haven’t seen them in the hardware stores in a while.

Because I have an old house, that is just over 190 years old, and do not fancy tearing apart the walls just because; in this instance I had no other choice. Pocket doors are… well a love hate relationship especially if they get stuck, or fall off of their track et cetera. I was just curious about any similar switches that are not required to be on a server or network, that looks relatively decent and works just as well. Any suggestions are greatly appreciated .

thank you all in advance ,

_Loch

The low (~0.6) power factor in cheap LED lamps isn’t mainly due to resistive or inductive behaviour, but rather because they are non-linear loads. These lamps (especially resistor or capacitor-dropper types) draw current in short pulses around the voltage peaks after rectification, which causes high harmonic distortion.

Even if the current isn’t significantly phase-shifted, the distorted waveform results in a poor true power factor. This is why adding capacitors doesn’t really solve the problem it only helps with phase shift, not waveform distortion. Proper LED drivers with active power factor correction shape the input current to follow the voltage waveform, which is why higher-quality LED lamps achieve PF values above 0.9.

Also, for residential users, utilities bill based on real power (kWh), not apparent power, so a low PF doesn’t increase your electricity bill directly it mainly affects the grid and upstream losses rather than what you pay.

Last I checked, only industrial users get charged for reactive power consumption.

Also how are you measuring or determining the power factor of the bulbs? You have an oscilloscope? And what does your meter say? Does your meter tell you in which quadrant you are operating? I highly doubt a LED bulb does anything to the overall reactive power consumed by the house. If it has any effect, it would be very insignificant and would be a case of a customer asking for 10 cents change on a 1000 rand purchase.

The important distinction here is that cheap LED lamps don’t just have a low power factor due to phase shift they are non-linear loads that generate harmonics. The current is drawn in pulses, which introduces 3rd, 5th, 7th harmonics on top of the 50 Hz fundamental.

In a single-phase home this isn’t a big issue, but in 3-phase systems the 3rd harmonic is significant because it doesn’t cancel between phases it adds in the neutral. So you can end up with neutral currents approaching or even exceeding phase current, even when the system is balanced.

That’s also why capacitor correction isn’t effective here, capacitors address phase shift (reactive power), not waveform distortion. Proper LED drivers solve this using active PFC, which reshapes the current waveform and reduces harmonics.

In a typical household the effect of a few LED lamps is negligible, but at scale (many loads across a network) it becomes a real issue in terms of neutral loading, transformer heating, and overall grid efficiency.

17 hours ago, Loch said:

Here goes: the general consensus is that LED lights/lamps reduce power consumption by a significant margin, and while I might be inclined to agree, there seems to be one particular problem that somehow diminishes the potential advantage. I have not seen to date an LED light/lamp that does not alter or rather lower power factor to a significant degree.

@Loch This is a great topic, and something that I have never thought of - thanks for raising it.

Not being an electrician, I cannot contribute anything, but will be following the discussion closely.

On 2026/03/28 at 9:08 PM, TaliaB said:

The important distinction here is that cheap LED lamps don’t just have a low power factor due to phase shift they are non-linear loads that generate harmonics. The current is drawn in pulses, which introduces 3rd, 5th, 7th harmonics on top of the 50 Hz fundamental.

In a single-phase home this isn’t a big issue, but in 3-phase systems the 3rd harmonic is significant because it doesn’t cancel between phases it adds in the neutral. So you can end up with neutral currents approaching or even exceeding phase current, even when the system is balanced.

That’s also why capacitor correction isn’t effective here, capacitors address phase shift (reactive power), not waveform distortion. Proper LED drivers solve this using active PFC, which reshapes the current waveform and reduces harmonics.

In a typical household the effect of a few LED lamps is negligible, but at scale (many loads across a network) it becomes a real issue in terms of neutral loading, transformer heating, and overall grid efficiency.

Thanks for explaining this in detail . What I found years ago with LED spot lamps was that the branded lamps at say 20W would draw 20W at a good power factor. The cheaper Chi??? Mall types would draw as low as 10W but also marked at 20W and their lumens would be much lower-thus linked to the Watts drawn.

The other pro L for me is that LED downlights I have never experienced them lasting over 9 months if used every day. Their life is also much shorter if used on during the dark period of day. Thus I take it the heat built up is the culprit. If the very same brand is used like 2-3 hours a day they last about 3 times more as in hours switched on. These times are rough estimates.

I have to say the free issue downlights when load shedding started I have not found a single one failing. This shows how great quality lamp CAN last in line with projected hours life. These were Philips marked not for resale.

3 hours ago, Scorp007 said:

This shows how great quality lamp CAN last in line with projected hours life. These were Philips marked not for resale.

I used outdoor lamps for illuminating my yard at night. After replacing bulbs a couple of times, I removed the Edison Screw fittings and built 10W floodlights into the lamps. They seemed to last forever. Their directionality also meant that they provided better lux.

In fact, I even do it with indoor lamps if I am too lazy to replace the wholeder:

On 2026/03/28 at 11:23 AM, Denns said:

On 2026/03/28 at 3:08 PM, TaliaB said:

The important distinction here is that cheap LED lamps don’t just have a low power factor due to phase shift they are non-linear loads that generate harmonics. The current is drawn in pulses, which introduces 3rd, 5th, 7th harmonics on top of the 50 Hz fundamental.

In a single-phase home this isn’t a big issue, but in 3-phase systems the 3rd harmonic is significant because it doesn’t cancel between phases it adds in the neutral. So you can end up with neutral currents approaching or even exceeding phase current, even when the system is balanced.

That’s also why capacitor correction isn’t effective here, capacitors address phase shift (reactive power), not waveform distortion. Proper LED drivers solve this using active PFC, which reshapes the current waveform and reduces harmonics.

In a typical household the effect of a few LED lamps is negligible, but at scale (many loads across a network) it becomes a real issue in terms of neutral loading, transformer heating, and overall grid efficiency.

Last I checked, only industrial users get charged for reactive power consumption.

Also how are you measuring or determining the power factor of the bulbs? You have an oscilloscope? And what does your meter say? Does your meter tell you in which quadrant you are operating? I highly doubt a LED bulb does anything to the overall reactive power consumed by the house. If it has any effect, it would be very insignificant and would be a case of a customer asking for 10 cents change on a 1000 rand purchase.

On 2026/03/28 at 11:22 AM, TaliaB said:

The low (~0.6) power factor in cheap LED lamps isn’t mainly due to resistive or inductive behaviour, but rather because they are non-linear loads. These lamps (especially resistor or capacitor-dropper types) draw current in short pulses around the voltage peaks after rectification, which causes high harmonic distortion.

Even if the current isn’t significantly phase-shifted, the distorted waveform results in a poor true power factor. This is why adding capacitors doesn’t really solve the problem it only helps with phase shift, not waveform distortion. Proper LED drivers with active power factor correction shape the input current to follow the voltage waveform, which is why higher-quality LED lamps achieve PF values above 0.9.

Also, for residential users, utilities bill based on real power (kWh), not apparent power, so a low PF doesn’t increase your electricity bill directly it mainly affects the grid and upstream losses rather than what you pay.

Hi all,

apologies for the delayed response…

I can see this. Your explanation is very logical and certainly makes sense. 10~12 USD per LED bulb… The Virgin Islands, while a territory of the US; not forgoing the British VI, I would agree in part that we usually get what we pay for, but serious inflation has always been a problem... I think ordering quality LED bulbs might even be worth the wait, if the bulbs sold at the big box store are poorly made. They are manufactured by Feit Electric…

Thank you.

I still have not yet connected my old CRT scope to view this distortion, but I do not plan on getting rid of my older German/Swedish/ Holland made Phillips/fluke 4ch scope, signal generators, RCL meters or bench multi meter for the convenience of smaller, less substantial test gear —-but—— I did have a proper DPM installed to monitor everything related to the power consumption of my home; every pertinent readings such as standard measurements like volts, amps, watts, kvar, va, var, kwh, load %, min/max V-LL/ A, hz, thd harmonics (volts and amps) and a few other measurements.

The DPM is an ASCO 5210 power meter, which interfaces with the ASCO Group 300G controller and switchgear very nicely. It has non-volatile memory with a password protected procedure to deliberately reset some or all stored data, it also monitors all parameters in real-time. The current CTs are 300:5 donuts @ 1% accuracy from square D, with a shorting block on L1, L2 and Neutral. [these will be eventually replaced with a matching set of high precision CTs from RITZ, with an accuracy of 0.15% @ at a 0.1 Burden].

Yes, because this is not a 3ph service, the monitoring of the neural leed is not really necessary, but enquiring minds would like to know, since the transfer switches are in a cascade configuration, and has overlapping neutrals. Besides, if I decided to build a 3ph converter and generate a third leg (L3) at some point in the future, I could also monitor state of balance and a few other metrics.

Yes, the setup is a bit of an overkill, being that the transfer switches and power meters are primarily used for commercial to light industrial applications, but how could I pass on 2 complete, barely used 3 pole automatic switch gear /w overlapping neutrals, 300G controllers, 5210 DPMs and precision CTs. Having worked with ASCO equipment, before they were absorbed by Emerson, and currently Schneider Electric, the 165 series were a nightmare, the 185s were a significant improvement but I never had an issue with the original 300 series nor the updated 300G… It should be noted that the mechanisms are identical and are all type “D” variants, and all were beyond reliable. The controllers were what ultimately determined which switch remained bulletproof…

According to the manual, this power meter, with the proper CTs and PT can monitor high tension voltages up to 59,999V @ 55,000A, with an overall accuracy within 1% and 0.25% for certain parameters. I do not intend to verify the high voltage aspect of this; I will take their word on face value. I am simply monitoring a standard 1PH 3 wire service rated @ 200A.

Why? Because our utility company is the number 1 most expensive —-and—- most unreliable in the US. I have been receiving “estimated bills” at double rate for the last 3 years before they replaced the faulty ITRON utility meter with a GE utility meter early April. It is also the reason that I ultimately gave up on them and “began investing” in solar equipment and renewable energy in general. If my backup single cylinder AD1 Lister diesel genny wasn’t so loud; or so I have been told, I would’ve ran it more often for my critical circuits. The household equipment does not seem bothered by the “capacitor” excitation system, and associated distortion of the markon (now stamford) head. It is an easy machine to maintain as is. Though the fairly recent solar system is quiet and really not as costly as it once used to be, and with perpetual summer and more batteries than I would ever need, the initial learning curve was not as bad as I expected; all the same I don’t fully understand why the solar shop basically just gave me all things pylon; 2 truck loads of pylontech batteries, cabinets and cables, after two small initial purchases of used batteries… while a great many were fully functional, the condition being that even the pallets of swollen batteries were part of the arrangement.

I now have 6 loaded cabinets of US2000B pluses, as well as the initial set of 4 US3000As. After a firmware update, and an initial balancing, I haven’t had a problem since. I probably need 10) more panels in addition to the 20) bifacial 635s, at nearly 70lbs per panel… Other than a separate charge controller for each cabinet… well let’s just say that things multiplied a bit quicker than initially anticipated; not in expenses, as the batteries seems to be the biggest investment to begin with; I don’t think that I would be willing to spend 1,500.00 per battery either. But then again, on grid net metering is a joke.

I am about halfway there, but I don’t really have a great need or are in such a big hurry anymore to complete this “project”. SMH. Believe me, I am not complaining… it is just a lot all at once; it just means that I need to re-revise my second setup attempt. But I need a break, and have already put pause on the rest, just for some much needed time to do something else…

While the power factor is around 60, I am not so sure that it matters as much as it did before… but I am very glad that you have pointed out that fact regarding PF. The purpose for the capacitor(s) were to shift the overall power factor from severely lagging @ .6 to at least .8~.9; if not 1.

And yes, some “residential areas” locally are charged (or penalized) for PF, among other things, because these areas are already R4, but also can be further zoned as either residential —-or—- commercial. That is just how the historic district is classified…

Apologies for the wall of text…

_Loch

On 2026/03/28 at 11:23 AM, Denns said:

Last I checked, only industrial users get charged for reactive power consumption.

Also how are you measuring or determining the power factor of the bulbs? You have an oscilloscope? And what does your meter say? Does your meter tell you in which quadrant you are operating? I highly doubt a LED bulb does anything to the overall reactive power consumed by the house. If it has any effect, it would be very insignificant and would be a case of a customer asking for 10 cents change on a 1000 rand purchase.

With a commercial/ light industrial DPM.

Yes, an older 4ch Fluke 3394A CRT scope. It is a bench scope; so no, I haven’t probed the circuit as of yet but see the first; considering that the DPM already has indicated the pertinent quadrant in question… hence the question to begin with…

With the breaker for a number of LED bulbs on and the breaker for everything else off… being that I updated the wiring on my historic home, I think that I should have a reasonably decent grasp on which circuit controls what… Although, an independent test, would not be an extraordinary proposition… for posterity, what do you propose in terms of a more satisfactory test?

If I may ask, what is your specific background? Mine is licensed *electrician; around the time when the CFL became mainstream… One of my —-hobbies—- is building, repairing, reverse engineering electronics, wherever possible. Again, hence the question.

I do not know everything, and I am not ashamed to admit that, on that same note, forums such as these, possess a wealth of information, as well as some incredibly knowledgeable and talented individuals who contribute on a regular basis to a number of equally reasonable questions, as well as actively engaging in a helpful altruistic manner, wouldn’t you agree?

You might be surprised then. No need to take my word for it…

The full manual is too large to upload, but it is readily available for download on the ASCO/Schneider Electric website…

which “quadrant” do you think a lagging power factor would be in?

Are we referring to your grid or my grid as far as billing is concerned? Sq footage of the house and its appurtenances? Location?

I do believe that a number of variables and speculation exists, which have absolutely no bearing on the actual question prosed.

Anyhow, thank you; I believe that the material question has already been eloquently answered…

_Loch

Edited April 11Apr 11 by Loch

Every thing else is on solar. One light fixture…

Edited April 11Apr 11 by Loch

This is a c.2012 Apple Cinema Display, which by today’s standards is still quite good. It has an LED backlight and a proper LED driver —-however—- this is what the human eye cannot capture, and what a camera can… 3mb max: the results are of course significantly improved but still present…

LED lantern; candelabra base. About your average LED bulb… of course this also presents another issue that is often overlooked. Just because we cannot process that rapid “blink”, does that mean that we remain unaffected? To see and to process are two completely different functions, despite being relative.

Would it stop me from using them? Perhaps when a migraine sets in, but correlation? I don’t know…

This is not a matter of smoke and mirrors, or parlor tricks. If in doubt, point your camera at an LED light/lamp/monitor et cetera, select slow motion and record.

Note: I can take 4 LEDs and create a very low current bridge rectifier. For what purpose? Gain a better sense and understanding that a Light Emitting Diode behaves in a similar manner as a standard diode: it blocks the flow of energy in one direction and conducts in the other; at least until you exceed its reverse break down rating. By this basler experiment, that is what I might use my oscilloscope to see. Pardon the dust…

_Loch

Hello again,

I am not sure if it would be proper to reference a youtube video regarding the basler LED bridge rectifier. I think that it is generally understood that it is more than possible to create such a device, which also demonstrates the very basics of one of the most common and essential circuits; one that is used in just about every conceivable device where ACV is ‘converted’ into DC.

No, I have not built one yet, nor have I connected my bench scope to it. This is largely because the end results are quite predictable —-however—- one thought has dawned on me: In the USVI/BVI; in N. America, It is understood that most if not all electrics are @ 60HZ. Conversely, In Europe and a number of countries, electrics are operated on 50HZ. I have often wondered if there is a benefit or reason to either… one initial thought is that where alternating current or a sine wave, in essence amounts to 360 degrees, which is divisible by 60 to which we can ascertain an exact number of 6, in contrast 360/50 = 7.2

That is not to say that either is more accurate or more correct than the next.

Another thought is that LED lighting in say, Europe has to be and would generally be more efficient, being that the lower the hertz LEDs might not be as forgiving and thereby require more components and better quality control versus the same operating at a slightly higher hertz of 60. But it has also dawned on me that the really cheap LED lights might not even use any additional components, other than a resistor or two, just to raise the operating voltage to a ‘standardized’ level. I wonder if the human eye can perceive this flashing @ 50hz~60hz or cycles per second. In the video with the venerable Apple Cinema Display, where flicker is barely noticeable via slow speed recording, that flicker can easily be a result of ‘aged’ components. Where some screens may induce fatigue more rapidly, this monitor does not. But then again, it has a high quality LED driver, where not all LED related equipment are created equal. One of the reasons why this topic is of interest is because: over the course of estimated billing over the course of the past 3 years, where no expense was spared in replacing every and all lighting to LED, and conventional equipment and appliances to inverter based systems, wherever possible. Is this: more or less on a monthly basis.

Yes, there is an excess in ways of grounds to cover for my historic home. That is just how it was built nearly 200 years ago. So no added structures; just updated appliances and an awareness to establish energy conscious decisions. I have a fair bit of continued renovation as is, not that I mind; I was one of the reasons why I chose that site to begin with.

I dont know about the concept of 10 cents on 1000 rand (sp?) but sure, every little bit counts; I am not sure if 2,700.00 USD per month for unreliable, local utility/grid consumption would even be applicable to what you are otherwise suggesting. I worked hard for every cent earned in the past, so why shouldn’t I be wary or at minimum enquire about a matter that might have some effect or possibly, correlation? A low power factor suggests that somewhere along the way, that in relation to the actual energy consumed, a certain percentage of energy has been wasted and expended in one form or the other. Heat as a byproduct? Possible but not likely. But specific to a lagging PF, where most modern electronics are quite versatile and where older, equipment were heavier and certainly consumed much more energy, because they lacked the more modern innovations, such as a switch mode power supply that will operate on, say 90VAC to 240VAC; as well as function effortlessly on 45hz to 62hz.

Naturally I am baffled because when I acquired the Sommerhus, upon a basler inspection , I came across some older utility bills that were no where near a 1:1

So if technology not only improved markedly from then to the present, but also are more reliable and durable in certain circumstances, such as a brown-outs, which were so common before Hurricanes Irma and Maria; where a brownout would destroy a number of equipment of yesteryear; where as the voltage dropped, the current rose rapidly and irregardless to the equipment in question it would amount to nothing more than rubbish, unless you took it to the repair shop and waited patiently until it was repaired; if it could be repaired or worth the effort. While those sorts of occurrences are rare nowadays, unless you have some vintage electronics.

Another observation made is that when running off of solar, the occasional glitches such as flicker or an audible increase in speed from a blower motor in contrast to grid power is not present when running off of battery banks and a ‘pure sine wave’ inverter. I haven’t gotten around to it yet, but I have a DPM to install for the output energies of the inverter and I would be curious to see exactly what, if any differences exist between these two power sources. Although I were to speculate, the inverter, which is sometimes regarded as clean power, while grid power is considered dirty…

@TaliaB

Under curiosity, where the phrase “Active Power Factor Correction” was mentioned, would that be a device or a piece of equipment that would otherwise be installed on premises that would actively correct or improve overall efficiency?

I know that it is mentioned that a few LED light would not have a significant impact, but hypothetically if one were to replace all lights to LED; as far as quality, how many would you say are a few?

_Loch

6 hours ago, Loch said:

Hello again,

I am not sure if it would be proper to reference a youtube video regarding the basler LED bridge rectifier. I think that it is generally understood that it is more than possible to create such a device, which also demonstrates the very basics of one of the most common and essential circuits; one that is used in just about every conceivable device where ACV is ‘converted’ into DC.

No, I have not built one yet, nor have I connected my bench scope to it. This is largely because the end results are quite predictable —-however—- one thought has dawned on me: In the USVI/BVI; in N. America, It is understood that most if not all electrics are @ 60HZ. Conversely, In Europe and a number of countries, electrics are operated on 50HZ. I have often wondered if there is a benefit or reason to either… one initial thought is that where alternating current or a sine wave, in essence amounts to 360 degrees, which is divisible by 60 to which we can ascertain an exact number of 6, in contrast 360/50 = 7.2

That is not to say that either is more accurate or more correct than the next.

Another thought is that LED lighting in say, Europe has to be and would generally be more efficient, being that the lower the hertz LEDs might not be as forgiving and thereby require more components and better quality control versus the same operating at a slightly higher hertz of 60. But it has also dawned on me that the really cheap LED lights might not even use any additional components, other than a resistor or two, just to raise the operating voltage to a ‘standardized’ level. I wonder if the human eye can perceive this flashing @ 50hz~60hz or cycles per second. In the video with the venerable Apple Cinema Display, where flicker is barely noticeable via slow speed recording, that flicker can easily be a result of ‘aged’ components. Where some screens may induce fatigue more rapidly, this monitor does not. But then again, it has a high quality LED driver, where not all LED related equipment are created equal. One of the reasons why this topic is of interest is because: over the course of estimated billing over the course of the past 3 years, where no expense was spared in replacing every and all lighting to LED, and conventional equipment and appliances to inverter based systems, wherever possible. Is this: more or less on a monthly basis.

Yes, there is an excess in ways of grounds to cover for my historic home. That is just how it was built nearly 200 years ago. So no added structures; just updated appliances and an awareness to establish energy conscious decisions. I have a fair bit of continued renovation as is, not that I mind; I was one of the reasons why I chose that site to begin with.

I dont know about the concept of 10 cents on 1000 rand (sp?) but sure, every little bit counts; I am not sure if 2,700.00 USD per month for unreliable, local utility/grid consumption would even be applicable to what you are otherwise suggesting. I worked hard for every cent earned in the past, so why shouldn’t I be wary or at minimum enquire about a matter that might have some effect or possibly, correlation? A low power factor suggests that somewhere along the way, that in relation to the actual energy consumed, a certain percentage of energy has been wasted and expended in one form or the other. Heat as a byproduct? Possible but not likely. But specific to a lagging PF, where most modern electronics are quite versatile and where older, equipment were heavier and certainly consumed much more energy, because they lacked the more modern innovations, such as a switch mode power supply that will operate on, say 90VAC to 240VAC; as well as function effortlessly on 45hz to 62hz.

Naturally I am baffled because when I acquired the Sommerhus, upon a basler inspection , I came across some older utility bills that were no where near a 1:1

So if technology not only improved markedly from then to the present, but also are more reliable and durable in certain circumstances, such as a brown-outs, which were so common before Hurricanes Irma and Maria; where a brownout would destroy a number of equipment of yesteryear; where as the voltage dropped, the current rose rapidly and irregardless to the equipment in question it would amount to nothing more than rubbish, unless you took it to the repair shop and waited patiently until it was repaired; if it could be repaired or worth the effort. While those sorts of occurrences are rare nowadays, unless you have some vintage electronics.

Another observation made is that when running off of solar, the occasional glitches such as flicker or an audible increase in speed from a blower motor in contrast to grid power is not present when running off of battery banks and a ‘pure sine wave’ inverter. I haven’t gotten around to it yet, but I have a DPM to install for the output energies of the inverter and I would be curious to see exactly what, if any differences exist between these two power sources. Although I were to speculate, the inverter, which is sometimes regarded as clean power, while grid power is considered dirty…

@TaliaB

Under curiosity, where the phrase “Active Power Factor Correction” was mentioned, would that be a device or a piece of equipment that would otherwise be installed on premises that would actively correct or improve overall efficiency?

I know that it is mentioned that a few LED light would not have a significant impact, but hypothetically if one were to replace all lights to LED; as far as quality, how many would you say are a few?

_Loch

Active Power Factor Correction (PFC) is not a separate device installed on-site for lighting circuits — it is built into the power supply/driver of the equipment itself (e.g. LED drivers, PC PSUs, inverters).

Active PFC uses electronic control to shape the input current waveform to follow the voltage to typically PF = 0.95–0.99

• Circuit Mechanism: A boost converter is placed between the rectifier and the filter capacitor, which boosts the DC voltage.

• Active Component: A MOSFET is switched at high frequency, managed by a controller, to align input current with the voltage waveform.

• Performance Benefits: Active PFC allows for near-unity power factor (generally

  and reduces total harmonic distortion (THD) to low levels, which is crucial for high-power LED lighting.

Cheap LED drivers often have no PFC or only passive PFC with PF = 0.4–0.7

Important distinction:

Centralised PFC (capacitor banks) used in commercial/industrial installations corrects inductive loads (motors) and does not correct non-linear loads like LED drivers.

Impact of many LED's

Example:

10 W LED with PF = 0.5 draws 20 VA

10 W LED with PF = 0.95 draws ~10.5 VA

If you install 30 × 10 W LEDs:

Good drivers ~315 VA

Poor drivers ~600 VA

Same real power, but almost double current draw it matters (especially on inverters) Inverters are kVA-limited, not just kW - Low PF loads:

*Increase current

*Reduce usable inverter capacity

*Increase losses and heating.

“A few” LEDs (≤10) negligible impact

Whole-house LED conversion driver quality becomes critical

Specify PF ≥ 0.9 (preferably ≥ 0.95) for bulk installs

Bottom line:

PFC must be addressed at the device level (LED driver quality) not with a central correction device and becomes significant when lighting is a large portion of the load.

Active Led driver PFC circuit.

Thank you for your very clear and concise response;

Then in essence, low quality LED bulbs without a proper built in PFC circuit would be likeable to exhibit poor lagging PF, and by extension, would draw more energy than its alleged “advertised” rating. One bulb in itself would be negligible, but several dozen bulbs; and elaborate light fixtures with many 100w “equivalent” LED bulbs (about 18w each) theoretically could make a substantive impact, as far as energy consumption is concerned, especially if one allows such fixtures to operate 24/7… SMH

Granted, it would still draw less energy than the equivalent incandescent bulb, and thereby be considered an energy saving implement… but a significant quantity of these bulbs, if we are counting “cents” would add up. You know, this makes sense and adds a bit of validity to my suspicion, when viewed on a larger scale.

Many years ago, the proprietor of a small supermarket chain, purchased thousands of 4ft T8 LED bulbs, which replaced the former 32 watt florescent tubes; 4 per fixture. These were not the plug and play type, as the ballast was removed from the circuit, and the T8 LED equivalents were wired directly. After 2~3 months later, we had a discussion about these lamps and the proprietor indicated that the savings were not particularly significant considering that a few thousand bulbs for his “supermarkets” were replaced with energy saving LED tubes. So this prompted a new load calculation, which was documented and provided to the utility company.

In his case, power consumption for his “supermarket chain” is measured, monitored, and billed with additional metrics and required variables, that would not generally apply to the majority of the utility company’s customers, who would generally have a 100A service.

A revised load calculation is one such metric required, considering that his smallest service is 1600A. 2) commercial establishments are generally billed at a higher rate than residential, where one tradeoff is that they have a certain priority due to perishable goods.

The load calculation establishes a “ceiling “ for the maximum estimated amount of energy including peak energy required for daily operations 24/7.

Some less than scrupulous business owners would “enquire” about scribbling a random number on this form, as well as illegal “measures” to reduce the appearance of actual consumption; basically to “partially” bypass the utility meter. Naturally this is illegal, and whomever is “caught “ doing any of the above, is literally guaranteed to lose their license, as well as face prosecution and criminal charges . The utility company, no matter how “incompetent” , surely counts coins especially where businesses are concerned.

LRA and FLA are used for motors, refrigeration rack system compressors and aircon systems lights and other loads can be measured based on actual consumption; with a proper meter and a Rogowski based coil CT. My preferred, foolproof method involves reliance on equipment placards, manuals and other means to which has established records and paper trails. In large part, while not illegal, it is problematic and highly frowned upon to remove these placards; especially on the Copeland/Emerson compressors. I asked the proprietor not to remove them because while many parts are interchangeable, how should one determine its capacity, application and refrigerant type?

The only way to make certain determinations where 15HP and 22HP compressors are indistinguishable in appearance. To make a logical comparison, required the removal of one head and valve plate and measure the bore and stroke. The valve plate could be cross referenced to determine if it is used for medium temp or low temp applications, It also required testing the oil (mineral verus POE). The wiring was not an issue as it is basically your standard 12 leed motor…

I still would use my trusty old Fluke 289 multi meter. My 199C has a few issues with the battery and membrane but I have not gotten around to sorting this out just yet, even though I have an aftermarket “PCB style“ membrane. Yes, I would like to install a lithium battery in place of the NiCad battery, but it is not a straightforward solution; not because the internal components are surface mounted, but because the charging circuitry and charger is specific to NiCad. Yes, the predecessor and updated release to the 199c has a lithium battery, a much better data logger and more memory… cliché but I it is not broken, and so forth.

Anyhow, the overall demand load was reduced by means of the application of a tried and proven approach; which further included the specifications and parameters of the LED tubes along with the total count installed.

Per usual, ampacity was measured with the 289, and yet, there was not an incredible reduction in overall consumption, which while initially skeptical, turned out to be contrary to the results that were expected.

These specific T8 LED tubes were simply poorly designed that within the year they began failing at an exponential rate. Point of failure? One 470uf capacitor on the driver board. It was a very basic, if not tedious repair. By purchasing a reel of 470uf, 105 degree caps at an uprated voltage, they haven’t failed yet; that was 6~7 years ago. When things were slow, I would have the proprietor set aside all failed LED tubes and would “refurbish” them at a determined rate and reinstall them.

The APC UPS while apples to oranges; they would flag the batteries and automatically take them offline, and otherwise reduce the system capacity, which kept the POI online until the generator kicked in. The modules were ridiculously priced so the head of IT enquired about it and talked about viability.

The faliure: according to the system log, the system often ran hot, and oftentimes erroneously flagged the batteries without good cause. Solution: while it initially pained the head of IT to provide the brand new battery module as requested, to reverse engineer; the solution was quite simple: desolder an unflagged PROM, install a high quality swiss made socket for future onsite repairs. The chip was duplicated bit for bit (no error correction selected no verification et cetera) w/ a Batronix Batego 48 II. Batronix GMBH, initially removed this chip from their library and current release at the time, but upon inquiry, Batronix promptly provided an email with the support information. What an amazing company and extremely high quality product. The only things eventually changed once identified, were two hex entries: the date and serial nr. The software alone is top notch. Despite the first set having the same serial nr. and date, the APC did not care and the capacity ⬆️ the failed power modules were simply a failed diode and IGBT; both were TO-247 form factor. What is the relevance of this: questionable grid power.

When they initially installed one of three LP Wartsilla unit(s), someone had a bright idea and disconnected the governing system allegedly because it kept tripping. All hell broke loose and specialist from Finland? Came a very long distance to correct this self-inflicted situation long distance because from here to the UK was about 15 hours per last stay.

Anyways @TaliaB thank you for further in depth insight on this matter; I will exercise more vigilance in selecting all replacements bulbs from this point forward, now that a proper understanding has been established, including what I should be looking for: (quality and reputable bulbs with a PF as close to unity as possible) .

I have always struggled with waste, so while these bulbs are not ideal for my application, there are a number, I imagine that they may serve a purpose for anyone interested in them, after suitable replacements have been identified and installed. Temperature (K) is also a key factor in this process as well; the more yellow tone bulbs (3500K) seems to instigate a migraine though in contrast, 6000K is far too cold: so somewhere between in between. Daylight is a good choice I think, so either 4500k or 5000k… 👍

Many thanks

_Lochheed

Hi there,

I came across this, and thought it curious enough to post. The question is whether such a piece of equipment may prove meritorious —-or—- amounts to nothing more than ‘snake oil’ ? I remember when equipment similar in function, and installed for residential/commercial use. I am a bit surprised yet confused as to the specifics, and yet find it curious to see this in a catalogue of the establishment; which ultimately acquired ASCO (Automatic Switch Co) very reliable, high quality, low maintenance [lest the 165 series] from Emerson, ASCO comes in a number of configurations, sizes and are usually made to order, especially the 7000 series but all switches ranging from the 300, 300g, 4000, or 5000 were primarily built to specifications and the only switch manufacturer that was approved and specified for the local hospitals because they are equipped with serviceable bypass systems, where the redundant switchgear can be removed and maintained without system shutdown or the main switch can be serviced while the bypass unit is active, which amounts to an uninterruptible and redundant power system. The utility room of these facilities are quite remarkable. Then again it must be, given that any interruption might result in a life threatening event.

Given a proper explanation, down to the component level, I came across this:

What do you suppose the rationale for this amounts to?

_Loch

In 60 seconds : D

_Loch