Hello and thank you for this fantastic forum. I'm not very technical at all and feeling a bit overwhelmed by all of I've been reading on getting my first system. So please bear with me!

My new house is due for completion in June in Fourways. It's a 4 bedroom house with 6 occupants. It's flat roof and faces North. I can fit up to 48 panels on the roof.

I don't know if I should get 2 solar geysers for each side of the house (I was quote about R40k for the system) or is there a way to use to old school geysers with an element which only run when there is solar power and use that extra R40k to add on panels? Could I then run them on a manual switch where I turn them on when there is extreme cloud cover or cold?

I have a budget of R300k ex VAT for solar. At this stage I think that might be too little to completely off grid?

(Sorry at this stage I have no idea how much power we will be using as we are moving from a small rental flat that we have been using while the house is built)

I have an Eskom Direct connection  and it's a 3 phase system. There is only ever minimal power usage on site with the builders so I have no idea what the tariff will be once we exceed 600kwh

Network Capacity Charge @ R9.43 per day for 28 days R 264.04
Energy Charge ( 0 - 600 kWh) 7 kWh @ R1.1753 /kWh : R 8.23

I would like to obviously try and use the solar panels as much each day as possible to save on my electricity bill but also have power for at least 6 hours in the event of loadshedding.

Is there a system where one can both be grid tied and still have power when there is loadshedding?

What would your ideal system be for R300k which would need installation by a professional plus all sundries? I.e. what brand inverters, batteries and panels would you opt for

Should I try push rather for an offgrid system or rather just be grid tied to keep the usage down? I.e. what is more efficient financially speaking?

Sorry for the long post but I've met with a few solar installers and I seem to get different answers for each system they propose.

Thanks!

1 minute ago, PapaRed said:

1) Is there a system where one can both be grid tied and still have power when there is loadshedding?
2) What would your ideal system be for R300k which would need installation by a professional plus all sundries? I.e. what brand inverters, batteries and panels would you opt for
3) Should I try push rather for an offgrid system or rather just be grid tied to keep the usage down? I.e. what is more efficient financially speaking?

1) Yes, Victron and Goodwe are favoured here. 
2) How long is a piece of string? 🙂 No seriously, I would turn it around, start smaller with a system you can expand as you have real data.
3) Off-grid is good where there are high connection fees. In cities Eskom is cheaper than batteries. So go hybrid IF the regulations are not a wee bit of a bother for you.

2 minutes ago, PapaRed said:

Is there a system where one can both be grid tied and still have power when there is loadshedding?

That's called a Hybrid system. The two popular ones around here are Victron and Goodwe. And there's still the odd InfiniSolar post too 🙂

3 minutes ago, PapaRed said:

solar geysers

Much much more efficient than heating water with electricity. Especially with a flat roof that will easilly accommodate a thermosyphon setup. Plus you can subtract the cost of electrical geysers (probably 2 x 150 liters or some such) from the price. You can still use solar power (of grid power) with the internal element in the solar geyser.

6 minutes ago, PapaRed said:

Network Capacity Charge @ R9.43 per day for 28 days R 264.04
Energy Charge ( 0 - 600 kWh) 7 kWh @ R1.1753 /kWh : R 8.23

You're going to have trouble competing with that price using batteries and an off-grid system. Go hybrid :-)

 

1 minute ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

1) Yes, Victron and Goodwe are favoured here. 
2) How long is a piece of string? 🙂 No seriously, I would turn it around, start smaller with a system you can expand as you have real data.
3) Off-grid is good where there are high connection fees. In cities Eskom is cheaper than batteries. So go hybrid IF the regulations are not a wee bit of a bother for you.

Thank you for the succinct answer! Ok so answer 3 sets my mind at ease about going hybrid.

The quotes I have gotten for Victron seem to be much pricier. What is the reason one would pay more for a Victron?

3 minutes ago, PapaRed said:

What is the reason one would pay more for a Victron?

Same reason you pay more for a Hilux than for a Ranger.

(I'm sitting here sniggering a little...).

Alright, it's the same reason you buy a Makita over a Ryobi.

(... still grinning a little...).

Jokes aside. Warranty (5 years). Support from the manufacturer. And the Victron units are stackable (you can extend your capacity by adding more in parallel) while the Goodwes are not. Best remote monitoring in the business (VRM).

27 minutes ago, plonkster said:

Same reason you pay more for a Hilux than for a Ranger.

(I'm sitting here sniggering a little...).

Alright, it's the same reason you buy a Makita over a Ryobi.

(... still grinning a little...).

Jokes aside. Warranty (5 years). Support from the manufacturer. And the Victron units are stackable (you can extend your capacity by adding more in parallel) while the Goodwes are not. Best remote monitoring in the business (VRM).

InfiniSolar also "stackable" : and has excellent warranty...

For your budget, personally, i would go Infini 3phase with Lithium batteries.

If remote monitoring is your thing, the it can be added like any other system.

Install what suits your requirement and the budget will govern that.

PS: budget anywhere between R30/watt and R45/watt for hybrid depending on some variables like

Inverter brand

Type of battery

Duration of battery storage

Type of roof.

But you have received some good information above. I am offering an alternate point to the conventional Victron(Hilux) points and Infini has not let me down to date after many EPC success projects.

17 minutes ago, Fazil said:

InfiniSolar also "stackable" : and has excellent warranty...

For your budget, personally, i would go Infini 3phase with Lithium batteries.

If remote monitoring is your thing, the it can be added like any other system.

Install what suits your requirement and the budget will govern that.

PS: budget anywhere between R30/watt and R45/watt for hybrid depending on some variables like

Inverter brand

Type of battery

Duration of battery storage

Type of roof.

But you have received some good information above. I am offering an alternate point to the conventional Victron(Hilux) points and Infini has not let me down to date after many EPC success projects.

Thanks Fazil.

What brand solar panels and batteries would you recommend?

1 hour ago, PapaRed said:

2 solar geysers for each side of the house

Is that 4 geysers or two in total?

I assume 2 in total, how far are they apart physically?

 

1 hour ago, PapaRed said:

Hello and thank you for this fantastic forum. I'm not very technical at all and feeling a bit overwhelmed by all of I've been reading on getting my first system. So please bear with me!
 

Sorry for the long post but I've met with a few solar installers and I seem to get different answers for each system they propose.

Thanks!

Welcome to the forum  Hopefully you get the right answers here. 

1 hour ago, PapaRed said:

My new house is due for completion in June in Fourways. It's a 4 bedroom house with 6 occupants. It's flat roof and faces North. I can fit up to 48 panels on the roof.

 

What kind of roof will it have? And what orientation will it face?

 

1 hour ago, PapaRed said:

I don't know if I should get 2 solar geysers for each side of the house (I was quote about R40k for the system) or is there a way to use to old school geysers with an element which only run when there is solar power and use that extra R40k to add on panels? Could I then run them on a manual switch where I turn them on when there is extreme cloud cover or cold?
 

You can retrofit a normal geyser with an MPPT charger and some solar panels. a 200L geyser will typically use 4x 250W / 300W solar panels, though you can add more if you feel it's needed. This would generally heatup the geyser to 70 degrees by late afternoon. The important thing to keep in mind, with either PV power or a evacuated tube type solar geyser is that it would loose heat during the night (known as standing losses). You can minimize this by installing some geyser blankets and "lagging" all the pipes around it. 

The important part to keep in mind, if we have 3 rainy / cloudy days like right now, both options will have problems. With an evacuated tube you can install a 220V element + controller to heatup on a rainy day. With the retrofit kit it's already included

1 hour ago, PapaRed said:

I have a budget of R300k ex VAT for solar. At this stage I think that might be too little to completely off grid?

R300K might sound like a lot of money but if you want to go offgrid, it would be better to do it properly instead of on the cheap. Your biggest expense would be a decent battery bank + monitoring / management.  It is also highly recommend to get a standby generator when going offgrid. 

1 hour ago, PapaRed said:

(Sorry at this stage I have no idea how much power we will be using as we are moving from a small rental flat that we have been using while the house is built)

 

Not a big deal. Do you at least have an idea of your expected power usage? i.e. will the new house be built with good insulation in the walls and roof to combat heat in summer and cold in winter, or would you need to rely on aircons / heaters during those periods? Will it have many, many lights throughout the house or can you get by with fewer lights if needed?

1 hour ago, PapaRed said:

I have an Eskom Direct connection  and it's a 3 phase system. There is only ever minimal power usage on site with the builders so I have no idea what the tariff will be once we exceed 600kwh

Network Capacity Charge @ R9.43 per day for 28 days R 264.04
Energy Charge ( 0 - 600 kWh) 7 kWh @ R1.1753 /kWh : R 8.23

I would like to obviously try and use the solar panels as much each day as possible to save on my electricity bill but also have power for at least 6 hours in the event of loadshedding.

 

With the right system this can easily be achieved. But we need to plan properly. In case you haven't read / heard about it yet, the City Of Cape Town has imposed new solar regulations, which will basically force us to limit the size of our systems, if we are grid-tied. Whether you feed back to the grid or not. IF you can go offgrid the limits don't apply. But, basically you will be limited to 6.9Kw on 40A breakers, 10.4Kw on 60A, 13,9Kw on 80A and 17.3Kw on 110A breakers, when using 3Phase.

This equates to 2.3Kw per phase on 40A, 3.5Kw on 60A, 4.6Kw on 80A and 5.7Kw on 110A, per phase. So this limits your choice of inverters + freedom to what you can / want to run off solar. 

1 hour ago, PapaRed said:

 

Is there a system where one can both be grid tied and still have power when there is loadshedding?

What would your ideal system be for R300k which would need installation by a professional plus all sundries? I.e. what brand inverters, batteries and panels would you opt for

Should I try push rather for an offgrid system or rather just be grid tied to keep the usage down? I.e. what is more efficient financially speaking?

Sorry for the long post but I've met with a few solar installers and I seem to get different answers for each system they propose.

Thanks!

Yes. Your options are, on no particular order (unless you're OCD 😜 ) , InfiniSolar, Goodwe, SMA, Solis, Victron. The Goodwe and Solis inverters can't be stacked, i.e. parallel connected to give more power. With Insifinisolar, SMA and Victron you can stack the inverters to get more energy. 

1 hour ago, PapaRed said:

What would your ideal system be for R300k which would need installation by a professional plus all sundries? I.e. what brand inverters, batteries and panels would you opt for

Should I try push rather for an offgrid system or rather just be grid tied to keep the usage down? I.e. what is more efficient financially speaking?

Sorry for the long post but I've met with a few solar installers and I seem to get different answers for each system they propose.

Thanks!

This is tough, since you don't yet know how much energy you need or want to use. But many people will say a Victron based system with BlueNova batteries,  battery management system (Venus or Color Control) enough solar panels to run everything + 30% more Panels and batteries then what you think and a generator for rainy / cloudy days. 

OR an Infinisolar based system with the same as above. It's slightly cheaper though. 

If budget wasn't the first objective, I would go the SMA route. SMA is considered to be one of the best brands. Both SMA and Victron has local support. 

1 hour ago, PapaRed said:

 

Should I try push rather for an offgrid system or rather just be grid tied to keep the usage down? I.e. what is more efficient financially speaking?

 

If you take the limits that CoCT has imposed into account, going off grid might be a good option, and in many cases financially feasible. 

1 hour ago, PapaRed said:

 

Sorry for the long post but I've met with a few solar installers and I seem to get different answers for each system they propose.

Thanks!

Probably cause many installers just want to close the deal but don't really understand DC based systems. Just cause they did a solar installer course don't mean they have the experience that one gains from working with the systems for many years. And many installers will try and sell you SystemX, cause that's what they know, and what their suppliers stock.

 

Most electricians follow the same path: They install brandX and BrandY lights, fittings, plugs and circuit breakers cause BrandX and BrandY are the cheapest and most brand name hardware stores stock it. Sparkies who have been around the block will shop around for the best stuff that would last much longer than the cheap stuff. 

2 hours ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

1) Yes, Victron and Goodwe are favoured here. 
2) How long is a piece of string? 🙂 No seriously, I would turn it around, start smaller with a system you can expand as you have real data.
3) Off-grid is good where there are high connection fees. In cities Eskom is cheaper than batteries. So go hybrid IF the regulations are not a wee bit of a bother for you.

He's on 3phase already so he has a monthly fee of at least R1500 before he even uses any units. 

9 minutes ago, phil.g00 said:

Is that 4 geysers or two in total?

I assume 2 in total, how far are they apart physically?

 

Hi Phil,

2 x 200 litres each with their own system as the house is H Shaped - I stuck my teenagers far away from me . So each system serves one side of the house. They are about 20 metres apart

I also got another quote to add 2x150l back up geysers. So I have 350l system on each side with the 150l feeding into the 200 litre tank. It's a bit overkill I think but apparently then I'll hardly ever have cold water. That system would cost R60k in total.

2 hours ago, plonkster said:

Same reason you pay more for a Hilux than for a Ranger.

(I'm sitting here sniggering a little...).

Alright, it's the same reason you buy a Makita over a Ryobi.

(... still grinning a little...).

Jokes aside. Warranty (5 years). Support from the manufacturer. And the Victron units are stackable (you can extend your capacity by adding more in parallel) while the Goodwes are not. Best remote monitoring in the business (VRM).

Who in their rightful mind drives a Hilux? Sorry, couldn't resist 🤣

6 minutes ago, SilverNodashi said:

What kind of roof will it have? And what orientation will it face?

Hey SilverNodashi,

 

Thanks for the comprehensive answer. It's a flat roof north facing and I can get about 48 panels up there.

2 minutes ago, PapaRed said:

Hey SilverNodashi,

 

Thanks for the comprehensive answer. It's a flat roof north facing and I can get about 48 panels up there.

Ok, nice. Is it IBR or corrugates? Or what material is on the roof?

Just now, SilverNodashi said:

Ok, nice. Is it IBR or corrugates? Or what material is on the roof?

It's a concrete slab with torch on.

8 minutes ago, PapaRed said:

I stuck my teenagers far away from me

Would it be correct to say that that geyser won't be getting used in a few years time?

If so I'd use solar electric here.

And the other one will be used daily forever?

If so I'd use solar thermal here.

26 minutes ago, PapaRed said:

It's a concrete slab with torch on.

Ok so then you need to use a mounting structure with concrete balasts to keep it down. 

1 hour ago, PapaRed said:

It's a concrete slab with torch on.

And 15 degrees is the minimum panel slope for self-cleaning in the rain./\/\/\

2 hours ago, SilverNodashi said:

Who in their rightful mind drives a Hilux? Sorry, couldn't resist 🤣

Proud Toyota fanboy since 1988. I tried a few makes... it never worked out 🙂

(Edit: With that whole withdrawal from AIG recently... and then the media turned it into a race thing... I sat there thinking that if people really expect me to choose between Toyota and Steve... they must be mad 😉 ).

Edited April 24, 20197 yr by plonkster

2 minutes ago, plonkster said:

Proud Toyota fanboy since 1988. I tried a few makes... it never worked out 🙂

(Edit: With that whole withdrawal from AIG recently... and then the media turned it into a race thing... I sat there thinking that if people really expect me to choose between Toyota and Steve... they must be mad 😉 ).

My dad always used to say, "If you want a car that last in Africa, drive a Toyota. Their spares are available everywhere". 

Just now, SilverNodashi said:

Their spares are available everywhere".

Same is true for a Land Rover though. Break down on the side of the road? No problem, you're bound to find another broken-down LR within walking distance that will have the part you need.

4 hours ago, PapaRed said:

Thanks Fazil.

What brand solar panels and batteries would you recommend?

I am not brand loyal. I provide solutions based on clients expectations and budget.

For example, if a client wants a 1 kw system on a tight budget to run basic appliances, I would NOT recommend Victron as its a lot more "premium" to other brands on the market. I would opt for perhaps Axpert or Synapse.

If for a larger hybrid system where the client wants a good monitoring system and has some funds available, then i would opt for Victron and perhaps Freedom Won or Solar MD or Blue Nova batteries.

 

3 hours ago, PapaRed said:

Hi Phil,

2 x 200 litres each with their own system as the house is H Shaped - I stuck my teenagers far away from me . So each system serves one side of the house. They are about 20 metres apart

I also got another quote to add 2x150l back up geysers. So I have 350l system on each side with the 150l feeding into the 200 litre tank. It's a bit overkill I think but apparently then I'll hardly ever have cold water. That system would cost R60k in total.

If you are still building then its safe to assume there are no geyser systems installed/procured as yet right?

i would recommend 3x 150L using tubes for that size house assuming its around 550m2 under roof. this would cost with tanks under R60k incl vat. This works perfectly in many of our applications. Regarding the brand, who cares as long as it offers market related warranty and the installers who been around for a while for that after sales support.

or concrete plinth that you can drill and mount onto if waterproofing is your concern. some good options available but flat roof is the most expensive to add solar but i could be wrong. Not sure of the others experiences.

5 minutes ago, Fazil said:

or concrete plinth that you can drill and mount onto if waterproofing is your concern. some good options available but flat roof is the most expensive to add solar but i could be wrong. Not sure of the others experiences.

No, you're not wrong  Waterproofing is a pain in the neck so it's best not to drill into that roof at all.