Rupert Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 If I switch off the charger on my 5 Kva Victron Multiplus it is unable to asses the battery state therefore I don't seem able to get my setup to operate solar/battery first before mains It seems to want to operate in a UPS manner instead of giving me max solar/battery Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 Hi Rupert, welcome. @plonkster is the best person to answer your question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
___ Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 Correct. The internal SoC only works if you actually use the charger in the Multi. That's rather logical is it not? It does proper Ah counting (unlike that other inverter that is so popular around here :-P) so unless it handles both legs of the cycle it cannot know how much you've put into it. If you have a firmware version greater than 402 on your multi you CAN write the SoC to it using an external loop. With newer versions of the CCGX you can therefore sync the SoC between the BMV and the Multi. But if you want to do a solar-before-mains type thing as with the Axpert, you can still do it with either the Virtual Switch setup, or with Assistants (I prefer the latter). You can also use the hub-1 assistant, it has one setting that does this out of the box, though I still prefer doing it with your own assistant stack. See the attached image indicating how I have mine set up. You will note that I have it configured to switch based on the temperature sense input. That is because on my inverter I only have one analog input (Multiplus compact), so I have to use that one. On the larger Multis you can use one of the other inputs. Then you wire the BMV to that input, so then the BMV's SoC switches the multi to the grid or to solar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Hobson Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 1 hour ago, plonkster said: It does proper Ah counting (unlike that other inverter that is so popular around here :-P) Probably my biggest gripe. The hardware could give you the answers but they just do not log it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rupert Posted October 22, 2016 Author Share Posted October 22, 2016 Thank you Plonkster! How do I get "assistant" on/in to my Victron software? Although whenever I go in to the software it checks for an update and has updated on a few occasions I don't have "assistant" I have a Victron Battery monitor (BMV) is there any way I can couple this in to the Multiplus directly? and hopefully without buying the cable from a Victron agent at an enormous price! Where would I find my firmware version? I Once tried to update the unit software on line and it asked me for a code from Victron When I asked Viictron for the code they referred me back to my supplier Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rupert Posted October 22, 2016 Author Share Posted October 22, 2016 I really don't want to purchase a color controller at R 8000.00 odd - a new Axpert 5 kVA is only R 9000.00! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rupert Posted October 22, 2016 Author Share Posted October 22, 2016 My logic say's that if the Multiplus has two great big cables (25mm) coming in to it from the battery bank it should be able to sense the state of the batteries! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rupert Posted October 22, 2016 Author Share Posted October 22, 2016 When I go to 'Assistants in my software it say's "the firmware in the device does not support assistants" My software version is 90.04.189 VE Configure3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
___ Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 3 hours ago, Rupert said: When I go to 'Assistants in my software it say's "the firmware in the device does not support assistants" Then you can use Virtual Switch to get the same functionality. I'm not familiar with that unfortunately, maybe when I get a chance I'll fire up VEConfigure and see if I can make some screenshots. Since version 2xx of the firmware it supports assistants, and since version 4xx (I think?) it supports both assistants and virtual switch (but not simultaneously). So you clearly have a 1xx version of the firmware. Version 408 of the firmware really is very nice, it might make sense to go to the trouble of flashing it. 3 hours ago, Rupert said: I really don't want to purchase a color controller at R 8000.00 odd - a new Axpert 5 kVA is only R 9000.00! You don't need the CCGX. You can do voltage-based self-consumption without a CCGX. I just mentioned some options by which you can integrate various pieces of hardware to solve the problem where the Multi doesn't know the SoC. Basically you solve the problem by using a different component that does know the SoC, and letting that component communicate with the Multi. One way to make that comms work is with the CCGX. But you don't need it. The assistant stack I posted earlier doesn't use the CCGX. It only uses the BMV (around 2.5k) and a piece of wire between the BMV relay and the Multi. 3 hours ago, Rupert said: I have a Victron Battery monitor (BMV) is there any way I can couple this in to the Multiplus directly? and hopefully without buying the cable from a Victron agent at an enormous price! Yes. There is a relay in the BMV that you can configure to open and close at specific charge levels. You then use two wires and you wire that relay to one of the analog inputs on the Multi. Then you configure the multi to ignore the AC (pretend it is not there, ie use solar) when that analog input is closed. Voila: The BMV now controls whether you use solar or grid. No special cables required, no CCGX. The Multi still has no idea what the SoC is... but it doesn't matter. https://www.victronenergy.com/live/dc_coupling:using_bmv_soc_in_a_vebus_assistant_setup 3 hours ago, Rupert said: My logic say's that if the Multiplus has two great big cables (25mm) coming in to it from the battery bank it should be able to sense the state of the batteries! That's not how it works. Proper SoC is done by counting electrons as they march out of the battery, and then doing a row-call when they come back. Once all the electrons are back in the battery, you declare 100% SoC. This only works if you're in control of both charge and discharge. When the charger in the multi is disabled, it is not in control of the one leg. Unfortunately, the Multi on its own cannot communicate with the BMV to read state of charge. But it's not a big problem, just delegate that job to the BMV and use two wires for analog comms. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
___ Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 This is untested, but I think it's mostly self-explanatory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
___ Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 5 hours ago, Rupert said: I Once tried to update the unit software on line and it asked me for a code from Victron I've never been asked for a code/password when updating firmware. It does ask you to type in the serial number of the unit, as a safety measure. It also asks for a password when you install assistants that do grid-tie, or if you change the grid code (say from UK to Germany). You only mess with these things when configuring the hybrid capabilities, out of the box these should not be configured, and I suspect they don't even exist in the 1xx firmware. On the other hand, I remember that on a training day it was mentioned that you can lock it down with a password. Edit: The serial number is on a sticker on the main processor inside the unit. It usually starts with the letters HQ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rupert Posted October 23, 2016 Author Share Posted October 23, 2016 Thank You Plonkster! your info/input is mind-blowingly helpful I now have something to work with Seriously wonder why I could not have had this info/education from the guy's who sold me the system 18 months ago Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
___ Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 Rupert, send your email address to [email protected] and ask that they let you know when there's a training day. They occasionally have a training day for beginners and system owners, entry level stuff, which is either very cheap or free, where they show you these things and allow you to play with real hardware. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Hobson Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 15 hours ago, plonkster said: That's not how it works. Proper SoC is done by counting electrons as they march out of the battery, and then doing a row-call when they come back. Once all the electrons are back in the battery, you declare 100% SoC. Probably the best analogy for coulomb counting ever! ___ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 3 hours ago, Rupert said: Seriously wonder why I could not have had this info/education from the guy's who sold me the system 18 months ago Victron trains all their installers, it is free. It is up to the installer to take advantage of these free courses so that they can justify the price they are selling the equipment for. If they do not install and configure, they should drop their price for a owner install. Your installer should have done all the above by default as Plonkster so succinctly demonstrated above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rupert Posted October 23, 2016 Author Share Posted October 23, 2016 When connecting the BMV to the Multiplus The BMV has place for 2 wires (+-?) The Multiplus has many input connections - V sense I sense Aux1 Aux2 Ground relay trickle ch K1 nc no com K2 nc no com which one do I use? (+-?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
___ Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 The relay contacts on the BMV are so-called "dry" contacts. There is no voltage on them, it's just a mechanical switch that switches on or off. So there is no +/- that side. The inputs on the Multi expects a voltage between 0V and 5V. However, it has a "pull up" resistor which means that an open connection reads as 5V from the inverter side, and a closed connection pulls it down to 0V. So technically one side will be + and the other -, but it really doesn't matter. So you don't need to do anything special. You can just use two wires to connect the BMV relay to any of the inputs on the Multi. When the BMV relay closes it will pull the input down to 0V and the Multi will detect it as "closed". I would use Aux1. For no particular reason, just to make it simple. On my own inverter I use temp sense because 1) it's a Multiplus Compact, it only has this one analog input and 2) The temp sense is connected to the MPPT, so it is unused on the multi. I don't charge using the Multi. Edit: If you want to test first, wire a normal switch to the auxiliary input first. Then you can manually flip the switch and test that the inverter does the right thing first. It is usually a good idea to wire a switch in parallel (or series depending on configuration) anyway, so that you can manually override things and force the inverter to stay on the grid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
___ Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 This just in my inbox. Quote Reminder:Self Consumption and Storage Systems Training - Lithium Ion Battery Systems Name Self Consumption and Storage Systems Training - Lithium Ion Battery Systems Location Sinetech, 2 Samantha St, Randburg, 2169 Date 2016-11-02 - 2016-11-03 Time 10:00 - 16:00 Deadline for reserving a seat is Thursday the 27 October 2016. All attendees must be experienced users of Victron Energy products and software, own an MK2.2USB Interface cable and must have attended at least one training event in 2016 in the Gauteng area hosted by Victron Energy. You can register at professional.victronenergy.com if you want to receive things like this. The above is perhaps one step above your present "level", but it's exactly what we've been discussing (sans the Li-Ion bats). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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