Nedd

Need diagram for this (it looks like a Voltronic Axpert). Inverter IGBT ipto voltages -5v &  +15v....

Is smd code E43G same as TL431 

hi @AndrewF I dont think there exist full schematics for this inverter. The closest you will get is a service manual , if you don't have it already , which has a limited amount  of partial schematics . If I look at the references  it closely matches what can be found on your pcb image:

PS-3KVA-Service-Manual.pdf

 

Here is another one with additional partial schematics , but I am not sure if it matches your PCB :

 

Axpert MKS 1-3KVA Service manual 20130611 (1).pdf

 

 

 

Hi     Is smd code E43G same as TL431 , have found cracked casing E43G 

45 minutes ago, AndrewF said:

Hi     Is smd code E43G same as TL431 , have found cracked casing E43G , its basically a 431 , found it on the schematics in manual you shared , many thanks British Green Racer

 

9 hours ago, AndrewF said:

 

yes you right I see the E43G marking for the TL431 SOT-89  device.

 

On 2023/08/19 at 7:25 PM, AndrewF said:

Eek! Is that 6 blade fuses I see in parallel? 🤢🤮

1 hour ago, Coulomb said:

 

Eek! Is that 6 blade fuses I see in parallel? 🤢🤮

Yes 😁

9 hours ago, AndrewF said:

Hi     Is smd code E43G same as TL431 , have found cracked casing E43G , its basically a 431 , found it on the schematics in manual you shared , many thanks British Green Racer

I'm looking for waveform screenshots on input pins on all optos driving the Inverter IGBTs if anyone has captured them for reference.. some of the waveforms on this board seem unhealthy/not good..

1 hour ago, AndrewF said:

I'm looking for waveform screenshots on input pins on all optos driving the Inverter IGBTs if anyone has captured them for reference.. some of the waveforms on this board seem unhealthy/not good..

By Inverter IGBT's are you referring to the DC-AC full bridge ( which generates the AC output via PWM)  or the DC-DC full-bridge on the HF transformer side ?

 

I have no recorded shot's of  either , and definitely not for this type inverter , although I think the PWM waveforms should be the same as for 5kW . There does exist , however , some good oscillograms captured by a member on @Coulomb hardware repair section on his AUS forum. I  will  search for it and respond.

 

EDIT : !! CORRECTION !! : I have subsequently learned that this inverter's topology is not directional , so there is no IGBT's on the dc-dc converter. Instead there is only a full-bridge diode rectifier on the high side of the transformer. So  there only exist   IGBT's in the DC-AC full-bridge.  This all infers that the inverter has a separate charger circuit , and this circuit can be seen  in the second service manual pdf file I have attach earlier on ( see section 3.4 of that manual). Please check that you agree with me on my assumptions. The first manual is that of your pcb . The second manual I cannot guarantee , but Q20,Q21 and Q22 of the charger schematic in the second manual is consistent with the charger reference components in the first manual. The first manual does not have a charger schematic. If you do agree that this is all correct , then you must 'stitch' together valuable schematic info from the second manual  that is missing in the first manual , and keep it as a future resource for repairing. And publish it for us in file sections.

 

Edited August 20, 20233 yr by BritishRacingGreen

14 minutes ago, BritishRacingGreen said:

By Inverter IGBT's are you referring to the DC-AC full bridge ( which generates the AC output via PWM)  or the DC-DC full-bridge on the HF transformer side ?

I have no recorded shot's of  either , and definitely not for this type inverter , although I think the PWM waveforms should be the same as for 5kW . There does exist , however , some good oscillograms captured by a member on @Coulomb hardware repair section on his AUS forum. I  will  search for it and respond.

found it , it is page no 44 of the repair thread . Below is link that will take you to the top of that page. 

https://forums.aeva.asn.au/viewtopic.php?t=6007&start=1075

Now scroll a little further down , until you hit this post :

 

You will find valuable info here . I trust you are aware of @Coulomb repair pages , it is purely a mine full of valuable information.

NOTE : whether you are measuring on the IGBT gate or on the DSP side of the opto , the PWM signals in the time domain will of course match , but the voltage levels not. If you measure on the DSP input side of the opto , there will be a near full swing between GND and +12V.

one nice thing of measuring waveforms on the DSP input side , is you can relate two or more channels together as all drive inputs share the GND line. On the gate drivers this is NOT the case and trying to do so may destruct the drivers as the various igbt emitters are not related and should be kept isolated.

 

Edited August 20, 20233 yr by BritishRacingGreen

On 2023/08/19 at 11:37 PM, AndrewF said:

Hi     Is smd code E43G same as TL431 , have found cracked casing E43G , its basically a 431 , found it on the schematics in manual you shared , many thanks British Green Racer

I'm looking for waveform screenshots on input pins on all optos driving the Inverter IGBTs if anyone has captured them for reference.. some of the waveforms on this board seem unhealthy/not good..

 

 

Many thanks to Coulomb and  BritishRacingGreen for your valuable input shared above ..... this Will No Doubt help many members going forward with this valuable topic....

 

 

7 minutes ago, AndrewF said:

I'm looking for waveform screenshots on input pins on all optos driving the Inverter IGBTs if anyone has captured them for reference.. some of the waveforms on this board seem unhealthy/not good..

 

 

Many thanks to Coulomb and  BritishRacingGreen for your valuable input shared above ..... this Will No Doubt help many members going forward with this valuable topic....

 

 

Hi @AndrewF , thank you for the feedback. Please continue to share your progress with us , I am very keen to learn whether you have accomplished your repair goal.

11 hours ago, AndrewF said:

some of the waveforms on this board seem unhealthy/not good..

Bear in mind that it's nearly impossible to get clean waveforms from a running inverter, with spikes everywhere, many ground references, high side gate drivers, etc.

Any time you see a glitch, you have to ask yourself "Is this really present, or is it a limitation of my measurements?".

On 2023/08/22 at 4:58 PM, BritishRacingGreen said:

Hi @AndrewF , thank you for the feedback. Please continue to share your progress with us , I am very keen to learn whether you have accomplished your repair goal.

Hi all , next to the display cable connector there's a 79L12 neg regulator, the output of regulator goes short circuit at power on but no short while no power ....does this power what i wonder.... , whats shorting this neg rail ....need to trace the reason for -12V, 

On 2023/08/23 at 4:33 AM, Coulomb said:

Bear in mind that it's nearly impossible to get clean waveforms from a running inverter, with spikes everywhere, many ground references, high side gate drivers, etc.

Any time you see a glitch, you have to ask yourself "Is this really present, or is it a limitation of my measurements?".

Hi im checking waveforms without IGBTs present(don't want to blow new parts....), but thanks for the interesting point.......Nice to know... i was going to create a photo montage of the board with waveforms while running/switched on generating 230V AC for future reference.

2 hours ago, AndrewF said:

Hi all , next to the display cable connector there's a 79L12 neg regulator, the output of regulator goes short circuit at power on but no short while no power ....does this power what i wonder.... , whats shorting this neg rail ....need to trace the reason for -12V, 

It may be a load short , but it also may be bad input smoothing to the 79L12 .You may have the same problem I have experienced with the a board where the input filtering  electrolytic capacitor C116 has gone dry . This capacitor is typically 100uF. Remove this capacitor and replace with a new one .   

1 hour ago, BritishRacingGreen said:

It may be a load short , but it also may be bad input smoothing to the 79L12 .You may have the same problem I have experienced with the a board where the input filtering  electrolytic capacitor C116 has gone dry . This capacitor is typically 100uF. Remove this capacitor and replace with a new one .   

Thanks   will replace C116 and hopefully solve the problem......

17 minutes ago, AndrewF said:

Thanks   will replace C116 and hopefully solve the problem......

Ok so there no 100uf caps around the 79L12 only a 47uf , so will try that one  

On 2023/08/24 at 5:01 PM, AndrewF said:

Hi all , next to the display cable connector there's a 79L12 neg regulator, the output of regulator goes short circuit at power on but no short while no power ....does this power what i wonder.... , whats shorting this neg rail ....need to trace the reason for -12V, 

Does anyone know what the -12v supply is used for ......I need to isolate this area to find shorting problems...

On 2023/08/24 at 8:32 PM, AndrewF said:

Ok so there no 100uf caps around the 79L12 only a 47uf , so will try that one  

I replaced both caps and short still present.....pulling  -12v down to  -1.5V

2 hours ago, AndrewF said:

I replaced both caps and short still present.....pulling  -12v down to  -1.5V

Hi @AndrewF ok , the -12V is used for driving the DC-DC converter gate drivers , along with the 12V. The -12V is also used on the controller section for the instrumentation op-amps. There may of course be other -12VV loads as well , of which I am not aware of.

Below is a schematic of the Axpert 5kW main board which is not finished and not checked completely , and I only supply it to you to get an indication where the -12V is used on the dc-dc converter. As you can see it supplies the 3525 PWM ic , along with the 12V , and it also drives the isolation transformers.

 

Edited August 26, 20233 yr by BritishRacingGreen

You might have to use a multimeter on the millivolt scale to see where the -12 V line has significant current, and therefore measurable voltage drop.

It can still be a pain to find, but it can save unsoldering chips or cutting tracks.

Good luck, these are some of the hardest problems to find.

One easy check, if this model has a control board: remove the control board. See if the -12 V springs back up.

On 2023/08/19 at 11:37 PM, AndrewF said:

Hi     Is smd code E43G same as TL431 , have found cracked casing E43G , its basically a 431 , found it on the schematics in manual you shared , many thanks British Green Racer

I'm looking for waveform screenshots on input pins on all optos driving the Inverter IGBTs if anyone has captured them for reference.. some of the waveforms on this board seem unhealthy/not good..

 

 

Many thanks to Coulomb and  BritishRacingGreen for your valuable input shared above ..... this Will No Doubt help many members going forward with this valuable topic....

 

so somehow i selected the incorrect reply box , LOL , anyway . the last issue was -12V pulled down by......, i found a damaged TL074 as well as 16V Zener short circuited(removed both), for IGBT gate driver, and -12V is back(whew, relief.....) not sure which one caused it . I forgot to check -12V before and after these 2 discoveries .. but getting there it seems, will get replacements and start looking(scoping) for sine wave and switching waves respectfully..