Now that I have changed to a Hybrid system there will be new things to explore and check. One place that I am out of my depth is battery charging volts so I just want to confirm what should the correct volts be now that I am on a Victron MPPT.

The spec sheet is attached for reference.

 

1403877859_6-GFM-170F.pdf

For me if you have 2 banks of 4 then 56.4V

56.4 charging at 20 amps it will take 10 hours to fully charge.

3 hours ago, PaulF007 said:

I just want to confirm what should the correct volts be now that I am on a Victron MPPT.

Same here. Remember to set the same settings of the controller, on the inverter too.

May I use this same thread to ask on Trojan batts?

Settings 1-5 on controller, based on the the titbits from Trojan below:
Temperature Compensation, no 5, did I read it right?
Have switched off the Auto Equalization, as it can be done manually in ESS, if required, after checking it is needed, using a hydrometer.

 

Edited September 26, 20186 yr by Guest
Hoeps, wrong pic for temp

Confirmed with manufacturer. 14.1V  to charge as per graph.  These batteries if 200 amps can handle 30 amps charging current after that you start cooking them. From your solar pannels I do not hope you bought a MPPT as that is 100% not needed in your configuration.    If so lets go fishing.

 

Edited September 26, 20186 yr by Erastus

Sorry 40 amps is max charging typo error. 

16 minutes ago, Erastus said:

From your solar panels I do not hope you bought a MPPT as that is 100% not needed in your configuration.

I don't see how 9 x Yingli 260w panels can be connected direct to the batteries, I really don't. 

10 minutes ago, Erastus said:

40 amps is max charging

Brochure says 42.5A?

Edited September 26, 20186 yr by Guest
Added 2nd comment

44 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

I don't see how 9 x Yingli 260w panels can be connected direct to the batteries, I really don't. 

Brochure says 42.5A?

I know but in his configuration his banks must not exceed  85 amps. I will shorten the battery life. Not charging it in full has an impact on battery life as well.
He can only only get 32 amps. If he adds another panel then 40 amps. 

 

Edited September 26, 20186 yr by Erastus

11 minutes ago, Erastus said:

I will shorten the battery life.

The bank was 2nd hand after an upgrade to Victron by the first owner. Both owners are very VERY particular in how they have used the bank, according to BMV and MPPT records, that I have seen. The bank has always been properly and correctly charged / discharged.

To connect panels direct to a battery is a very bad idea, unless you know EXACTLY what you are doing.

For the other 99.99% of us, a MPPT and BMV is more than sufficient to manage the finer details.

16 minutes ago, Erastus said:

85 amps.

At a min of 10% rate of charge, that is a 850ah bank? Connect those panels direct to that bank and it is fried chop chop.

1 hour ago, Erastus said:

Sorry 40 amps is max charging typo error. 

Okay, Paul has got a 48Volt inverter, with 8 x 170 Ah 12 volt batteries. That will give him a 340Ah bank. At 10% recommended charge current he only needs a 34 amp charging current.

His Mppt can only give 70amps max, but with 9x260Watt (2340Watts max) his panels can only supply 2340/58V (estimated bulk charge) max 40.34 Amps. This is safe and below the max recommended 42.5 amp charge current limit. 

I cant see anything wrong with his setup an d no issues on the MPPT side. 

6 hours ago, PaulF007 said:

One place that I am out of my depth is battery charging volts so I just want to confirm what should the correct volts be now that I am on a Victron MPPT.

Now to try and answer his question.    Seems like this battery was designed for standby and only a float voltage is given and that is 54 Volts. I cant seem to find any data specifying a bulk charge as would have been expected from cycling the battery's.   What was your bulk charge @PaulF007 on the previous inverter. I dont see any need to use different values because you have changed to a Victron MPPT, the same setting read into the config of the Victron should work just fine. 

3 minutes ago, Jaco de Jongh said:

Okay, Paul has got a 48Volt inverter, with 8 x 170 Ah 12 volt batteries. That will give him a 340Ah bank. At 10% recommended charge current he only needs a 34 amp charging current.

His Mppt can only give 70amps max, but with 9x260Watt (2340Watts max) his panels can only supply 2340/58V (estimated bulk charge) max 40.34 Amps. This is safe and below the max 42.5 amp charge. 

I cant see anything wrong with his setup an d no issues on the MPPT side. 

Now to try and answer his question.    Seems like this battery was designed for standby and only a float voltage is given and that is 54 Volts. I cant seem to find any data specifying a bulk charge as would have been expected from cycling the battery's.   What was your bulk charge @PaulF007 on the previous inverter. I dont see any need to use different values because you have changed to a Victron MPPT, the same setting read into the config of the Victron should work just fine. 

Jaco what is the input voltage range of the inverter 40 - 90VDC?  340 in total? 2 banks = 2 * 42 = 84amps ?

Edited September 26, 20186 yr by Erastus

Just now, Erastus said:

Jaco what is the input voltage range of the inverter 40 - 90VDC

That is irrelevant, as the panels is not connected to the inverter. They are connected to the MPPT and the mppt has a Input rating of Maximum 150 volts. If he is still using the MPPT stated in his signature. 

36 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

The bank was 2nd hand after an upgrade to Victron by the first owner. Both owners are very VERY particular in how they have used the bank, according to BMV and MPPT records, that I have seen. The bank has always been properly and correctly charged / discharged.

To connect panels direct to a battery is a very bad idea, unless you know EXACTLY what you are doing.

For the other 99.99% of us, a MPPT and BMV is more than sufficient to manage the finer details.

At a min of 10% rate of charge, that is a 850ah bank? Connect those panels direct to that bank and it is fried chop chop.

Maths is totaly incorrect. Unless there is some magic then we can sell it to Ferrari for F1 and retire. 

Just now, Jaco de Jongh said:

That is irrelevant, as the panels is not connected to the inverter. They are connected to the MPPT and the mppt has a Input rating of Maximum 150 volts. If he is still using the MPPT stated in his signature. 

I should have asked what is the input voltage range of this type of inverter. Not related to what he has. Sorry for that. I was more interested in that than in his set up.

1 minute ago, Erastus said:

I should have asked what is the input voltage range of this type of inverter

His inverter is rated for 48 Volt. The rating is only related to the battery voltage. So you can buy his inveter for 12v or 24v or 48 volt. No place to connect PV to the inverter directly. thats why you need the MPPT to connect the PV to the batteries and then the batteries gets connected to inverter. 

2 hours ago, Erastus said:

Confirmed with manufacturer. 14.1V  to charge as per graph.  These batteries if 200 amps can handle 30 amps charging current after that you start cooking them. From your solar pannels I do not hope you bought a MPPT as that is 100% not needed in your configuration.    If so lets go fishing

You do realise that the pannels push about 105 volts.Dont think the batts will like that

17 minutes ago, Jaco de Jongh said:

Okay, Paul has got a 48Volt inverter, with 8 x 170 Ah 12 volt batteries. That will give him a 340Ah bank. At 10% recommended charge current he only needs a 34 amp charging current.

His Mppt can only give 70amps max, but with 9x260Watt (2340Watts max) his panels can only supply 2340/58V (estimated bulk charge) max 40.34 Amps. This is safe and below the max recommended 42.5 amp charge current limit. 

I cant see anything wrong with his setup an d no issues on the MPPT side. 

Now to try and answer his question.    Seems like this battery was designed for standby and only a float voltage is given and that is 54 Volts. I cant seem to find any data specifying a bulk charge as would have been expected from cycling the battery's.   What was your bulk charge @PaulF007 on the previous inverter. I dont see any need to use different values because you have changed to a Victron MPPT, the same setting read into the config of the Victron should work just fine. 

You are right it is standby batteries but deep cycle. I am getting the full curves etc from the manufacturers. I have the same but mine is 200 amp hour. Victron MPPT & VICTRON I only saw photos and prices and when I return from intensive care after shock treatment I realize this equipment this equipment I can not afford. I Paid R4500 for my 4 batteries and was money well spend.
How ever to use it for standby it must be fully charge. Less than 54.6V will never ever recharge the batteries and then for at  least 8 hours from empty.

I think I am walking on thin ice and I do not want abuse  Paul007 "gasvryheid" for allowing me to ask questions and have a look at his system. Please you can ask me a lot about batteries and charging and.... But I do not want to abuse Paul by referring to his system. I will say thinkgs jokingly that I love doing.  What I can say I did a proper research on the charging of "lead based" batteries and designed a charger that was approved by the "designers" of the batteries as being labeled as accurate and good. Therefore I know a little not much about batteries but for me I can never ever use Kw to charge a battery. In a few words an MPPT is to accommodate the mismatch between solar panels, inverters and batteries. In other words to try and get max performance for the difference between a PV and battery. A MPPT is to correct an error in design and make life easier. Not a need or a must. My opinion a total waste of money. But that is my opinion.
I spend some time on batteries and a battery simply put has a few basic parameters:  ( I can put a lot more down but for this I keep it simple)

1. Voltage  Max V operational V and  Min V
2. Charge rate
3. Discharge rate
4. Operational temp  +/- 25 is a good temp
5. Charging temp.

Never ever one speaks about KW when charging a battery or only to calculate the cost of charging batteries.

 

24 minutes ago, PaulF007 said:

You do realise that the pannels push about 105 volts.Dont think the batts will like that

when installed but if you take a photo of the sticker at the back it is  36V 8 amps ....  If you connect them 2 in series for 265 what the max you get is +/- 65V But the sticker will say it.  Therefore I guess you have 3 in series and 3 of 3 banks    that is where you get 105V.  Nope I will never do that. It is the serialization of the panels that increases the voltage.

13 minutes ago, Erastus said:

A MPPT is to correct an error in design and make life easier.

A MPPT is also there to use higher volts and thinner cables. 

14 minutes ago, Erastus said:

... designed a charger that was approved by the "designers" of the batteries as being labeled as accurate and good.

So in a nutshell, you also have a "in-between" the panels and the battery, that makes a MPPT a anchor?

Tell us more.

17 minutes ago, Erastus said:

.. never ever use Kw to charge a battery.

We don't. 

Nope it is not an anchor. I took a different approach. My device is to monitor the batteries. I can switch off any combination of panels and also the output from the batt to the inverter.
Thus the system keeps on doing maintenance for me. What you guys are referring to ABC def I simply want to monitor and control the way I use my batteries.
Thus my device I can measure many parameters and graph it. It gives me heads up on battery issues solar panels and mismatch in my system.
For that I think you guys have 3 or 4 ABC. ....

1 hour ago, Erastus said:

A MPPT is to correct an error in design and make life easier. Not a need or a must. My opinion a total waste of money. But that is my opinion.

This for you with a tracker will not make sense, for all others this is the best thing to install. Please read up on its functions before you use a piece of equipment that the whole world incorporate into their solar systems as an anchor.. An MPPT is the only way you can get close to the production of tracking with a fixed array, once you think outside the box of your own install, you should be able to see its benefits.  

14 minutes ago, Erastus said:

My device is to monitor the batteries. I can switch off any combination of panels and also the output from the batt to the inverter.

Your device, lets call it a "black box", no, a "magic black box" (MBB).

So, to sum up: We have anchors and you have this MBB that does miracles, with data and all that, that our MPPT's cannot ever do? Useless they are.

If we all knew about this MBB and it is as good as you say it is, then we would probably not have bought MPPT's, but rather your MBB IF all the facts around solar was addressed with this MBB of yours. Facts like:

• I have never seen one, none of us have ever seen any MBB's.
• 99% of us have no clue how to make one ourselves, no matter how easy it may seem to an experienced person.
• Some of the banks are much much more expensive that yours. A 225ah 24v Trojan bank is close to R11k. And they are proper batteries.
• And then you have lithium banks becoming seriously popular.

You are losing us squire, you are losing us. 

Edited September 26, 20186 yr by Guest

1 hour ago, Erastus said:

I Paid R4500 for my 4 batteries and was money well spend.

Hold on a bit ... that is R1125.00 for a 200ah battery?

Either you are seriously connected and get them at manufacturers cost (if they can do it that low) or they are 2nd hand ... or they are like really el-cheepo i.e. soon to be real anchors. 

Deep cycle solar batteries contains a lot of lead and is the main part, the other transportation costs due to dangers and weight, that drives their prices up ... then you have designers spending years on to make them work optimally - like lasting +-8 years (4000 cycles) before mother nature takes over - old age.

So R1125 per batt I would  most definitely try a MBB ... but not at the prices we common folk pay for a 48v / 24v battery bank. And with a MPPT, no anchor, so that the banks last as per the manufacturers specs, and the period they specify, if you follow their VOLTS and AMPS requirements, not Watts. 

1 hour ago, Erastus said:

1. Voltage  Max V operational V and  Min V
2. Charge rate
3. Discharge rate
4. Operational temp  +/- 25 is a good temp
5. Charging temp.

1 - We know that.
2 - We know that too, the batt manufacturer gives us that, and we set the "anchors" to do that.
3 - That is dependent on the load the inverter pulls, discharge rate which is given to us by the batt manufacturer. Our peril to ignore.
4 - We know that, but unless you have them batts in a temp controlled room or special room, it is difficult at best.
5 - Therein the manufacturers specifying the temp compensation - that a "anchor" can handle. 

We can use batteries anywhere we like. Alaska, N/S Pole, Sahara, Karoo ... Hogsback / Lesotho highlands in the middle of winter ... just follow the manufacturers specs and use a good "anchor" that is programmable see. 

Edited September 26, 20186 yr by Guest

2 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

Your device, lets call it a "black box", no, a "magic black box" (MBB).

So, to sum up: We have anchors and you have this MBB that does miracles, with data and all that, that our MPPT's cannot ever do? Useless they are.

If we all knew about this MBB and it is as good as you say it is, then we would probably not have bought MPPT's, but rather your MBB IF all the facts around solar was addressed with this MBB of yours. Facts like:

• I have never seen one, none of us have ever seen any MBB's.
• 99% of us have no clue how to make one ourselves, no matter how easy it may seem to an experienced person.
• Some of the banks are much much more expensive that yours. A 225ah 24v Trojan bank is close to R11k. And they are proper batteries.
• And then you have lithium banks become seriously popular.

You are losing us squire, you are losing us. 

Let me be more precise. Sorry. "Ek weet mos waarna ek verwys" . I could not understand why I must take solar panels connect them i series to get 105V. Depending on skin resistance 100 and above can kill. For the first time I understood why OSHA inspected my panels .... I never realized people are jacking it up to 105V. When people told me I need an MPPT I googled and then saw this: https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b&ei=vQmrW9CmDMT8gAa55bD4BA&q=MPPT+150%2F70&oq=MPPT+150%2F70&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0l2j0i22i30k1l6j0i22i10i30k1j0i22i30k1.29104184.29104184.0.29106923.1.1.0.0.0.0.247.247.2-1.1.0....0...1..64.psy-ab..0.1.246....0.aXciHXxfHtE . 

Jup R7xxx for a devise to do what? So I then used an old project software and designed a bulk charger that monitors the charging of batteries. Therefore a few parameters:

1. I look at charge rate. This tells me if there are "false" charging.
2. I measure the current into each bank batteries
3. I measure the current out of each bank batteries
4. I monitor the current from solar panels.

In total I have +/- 120 different parameters that I monitor From this I can can calculate all what is necessary to determine the status of my solar panels, batteries. For me it is not about bragging rights but if I give service to people I realize that not all understand these things but graphs tel us so much about our systems. That is what is important to increase battery life.

For me I know I am crazy when I refer to an anchor but to understand a clients problems the graphs tell me more about a system and the design that the developer wants me to know. I been designing a few systems and it is important to get these values. 
Therefore I actually put the controller at the panels, I never have to worry about getting killed and it is seen as an extra low voltage system.  There are so many advantages. 
I also put the solar tracker in the software.

A small example I was missing current  and the ratios showed me an error. Looked for it and saw the red bolt.

Things like that is what the little box do.