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vladgon

Is it possible to flash a new chip if the old is replaced ?

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Can't say... but usually how these things work is there is two bits of code on the chip. At the "beginning" of the chip (the typical boot process for most CPUs is to read a block right at the start of storage and immediately execute it) there is a bit of code called a boot loader. Under normal operation, this code usually does nothing, it simply locates the real program (lower down in storage) and transfers control to it. The bootloader also typically implements the flashing functionality, so essentially the first half of the chip contains code that can reprogram the second half of the chip.

That means that you usually need at least the bootloader already on the chip before the firmware flash process will even work.

Edited by plonkster

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On 2018/12/13 at 10:52 PM, vladgon said:

U1 burned. Can I replace it with a similar one and re-flash it?

Basically, no. [ Edit: yet, it was done! ]

As Plonkster mentioned, you would need the boot loader [ Edit: which is not available ]  [ Edit2: it seems that the bootloader isn't necessary for these machines, except of course to be able to update the firmware. ]. To load the loader, in addition to the non-existent bootloader, you need special hardware and software. It's not all that exotic, but it helps if you've worked with TMS320 JTAG before (actually, a 3K model might not even use a Texas Instruments TMS320 processor at all, which would bring it even further into unknown territory). 

So your only option is to buy a Control Card as a spare part from your supplier. Weber has done this, and so far it's been quite exasperating. It took months to get them to understand exactly what he wanted, send all the barcodes etc, wait [ Edit: I initially thought, for them to reprogram it (it has the serial number burned into EEPROM), but they seem to come with generic serial numbers ], and finally delivery. It came with an unusual firmware version, and I think he's still waiting for answers on how to proceed with getting the right firmware. Hopefully your experience will be better.

Edit: you can read more about Weber's control card order in the last paragraph of this post.

Edited by Coulomb
more details; reprogramming

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Thank you for the detailed answer.

Let's think. 
For information I will add that this inverter has MC9S08AC60 chip 

installed on the main Board and does not have а Control Card.

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2 hours ago, vladgon said:

installed on the main Board and does not have а Control Card.

Ah. Then I think your only option is a new main board. I certainly don't have a 9S08 bootloader, sorry. It would be nice if suppliers were able to provide a programmed new chip, but I think that's most unlikely. 

Edit : a final off the wall idea. You might be able to get a JTAG or other programmer for the 9S08s (sometimes called HCS08 family). The firmware might operate ok without a bootloader at all, or with a sort of null bootloader that merely passed through control to the main firmware, but the machine would never be able to firmware update without doing the JTAG or other programming again. But then you still need a main firmware for that model, so you'd have to either be very lucky and find a copy on the web, or get that from your supplier. And possibly massage it into whatever form the programmer needed. Maybe it will read the Motorola S file directly, if you're very lucky. Serious skillz would be advantageous. 

Edited by Coulomb

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Thank you, Colombo, for your sincere desire to help. I will use your hint and try to program a new chip via JTAG ICE II or equivalent. Even found a forum on washing machines. My chip is also used there and people program it. I will study. In the meantime, ordered on Aliexpress chip and waiting for delivery (20-30 days). I will share the results here on the forum.

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1 hour ago, vladgon said:

 I will use your hint and try to program a new chip...

Ahem. All those problems were supposed to put you off. Perhaps you should attempt to obtain the firmware image as a first step. Though I guess the chip might only cost a few dollars.

Good on you for your positive attitude. 

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1 hour ago, vladgon said:

 

@vladgon, you'll be forced to write some assembly language code, so you'll need an IDE that understands HCS08 (I don't know of a free one, but maybe you can use a limited code size version of IAR).

You'll have to know at least a few instructions, so look at for example this manual :

https://www.nxp.com/docs/en/data-sheet/MC9S08AC60.pdf

If you're old enough, you might understand this comment :

The HCS08 instruction set is 6800-like. Mostly you use just 4 registers: a (8 bit), h and x (often used together as a 16 bit register), and sp (16 bit stack pointer).

This might give a little more of a flavour of what you're getting into 🤔

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@Coulomb, you really should stop encouraging @vladgon to waste his time. You should have stuck to what you said at first. His only option is to buy a new board.

Hi @vladgon. It is simply not possible, for the reasons that plonkster gave. Because we do not have the main firmware and we do not have the bootstrap loader. And it is not possible to read these out of an existing chip because they are protected.

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4 hours ago, weber said:

because they are protected

If you have lots of time to waste... there have been cases where people shaved off the top of the chip and through heavy reverse engineering (and I think an electron microscope) figuring out the code. But the case I remember was for cracking the MiFare fire chips (an RFID chip with challenge-response auth) and probably won't apply here. It does however underscore one thing: It will be cheaper to replace the board instead of getting all the equipment :-)

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2 minutes ago, vladgon said:

This  firmware is encrypted or not ?

I don't think Voltronic encrypts firmware, but they do protect the production microcontrollers (so you cannot read back firmware from it, or you can but you usually just get garbage), and hence you still don't have a bootloader.

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It's not that you need the bootloading function of the bootloader. You need its initialisation code and its reset and interrupt vectors.

And you said the microprocessor was "burned". I've never see a microprocessor burned without practically everything else on the same power supply burned too. What makes you think replacing and reflashing the micro (it it was possible) would fix it?

Given the version number, I found what I assume was the web page it came from:

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=cs&u=http://www.ostrovni-elektrarny.cz/index.php%3Fpage%3Dpodpora&prev=search

You said yours was an Axpert KS 3K. You seem to have the firmware for an Axpert MKS 3K. Both are linked from the above page.

Edited by weber

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Thanks Weber for the answer.

I read your posts on another forum and know that you are very well know and versed in the repair of inverters PIP 4-5K.

I'm not saying replacing the chip will help, I want to try it.

The symptoms are as follows. 

Resistance to supply +5V to about 4 Ohms. After unsoldering the legs of the chip power supply,

the power resistance has become much greater. Filing on the soldered legs power chip + 5V saw a strong heating of the chip body.

 

Your URL is correct.

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So as and promised a small report. 
I managed to fix the inverter by replacing the controller and some parts. 
The most difficult thing was to solder the controller back. 
Very small distance between the legs and soldering they are constantly closed. 
It was also difficult to find the reason for the lack of power on it and other chips, but it's probably my fault. 
It turned out that the replaced power supply assembly was either defective or i overheated it during the replacement 
and therefore i began to check it again last. 

Loading the program into controller was easy enough. 
I took the firmware on one of the forums mentioned in this topic and using the USBDM freescale programmer.
Loaded through the provided connector on the main Board.

If anyone needs details ready to answer.

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2 hours ago, vladgon said:

I managed to fix the inverter by replacing the controller and some parts. ...

Loading the program into controller was easy enough. 

Wow. Well done. I don't think that's been done very many times!

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6 minutes ago, plonkster said:

Does that mean the bootloader is included in the firmware update?

I nearly posted no, don't be silly. But it looks like it is. The last 1 KiB of flash seems to be a thing called "IAP", per my comments (I don't recall where I got that). It might be example code from the manufacturer, or specific for the inverters.

Maybe it's because there is 48 KiB of flash, only 1 KiB needed for the bootloader, and they could not afford a whole flash segment for the bootloader.

This is for the smaller machines with the HCS08 8-bit processor. The much faster and larger 16/32 bit DSPs use a TMS320F2809. Some of the mid-range machines use the TMS-320F28062, from memory.

I saw the other day that Must Power are boasting that they use the more-powerful-again TMS320F28335 in their hybrid models that still look like Axperts. This processor even has floating point support. If you really want to see, it's about 20% into this Alibaba page: https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Grid-Tie-inverter-solar-5KW-48V_60721410267.html?spm=a2700.details.maylikever.11.76513e869VV9dH .

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On 2019/03/20 at 10:18 AM, vladgon said:

So as and promised a small report. 
I managed to fix the inverter by replacing the controller and some parts. 
The most difficult thing was to solder the controller back. 
Very small distance between the legs and soldering they are constantly closed. 
It was also difficult to find the reason for the lack of power on it and other chips, but it's probably my fault. 
It turned out that the replaced power supply assembly was either defective or i overheated it during the replacement 
and therefore i began to check it again last. 

Loading the program into controller was easy enough. 
I took the firmware on one of the forums mentioned in this topic and using the USBDM freescale programmer.
Loaded through the provided connector on the main Board.

If anyone needs details ready to answer.

I have a AEG washing machine with a burned MC9S08AC60CFUE. The firmware is WED21332. Can you advise me how to get that firmware and how to load it into an empty MCU (replaced new one)

thanks. Please email me   henrik (at) koch-engineering.com

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