Loan units of batteries and invertors.

[Nicholas Strachan]

Morning all.

I am based in the greater Durban area and wanted to pick the brains of installers and suppliers.

It seems that the repair time on batteries/ invertors can be quite long and then a client is left without one of those components.

I was wondering how much of a market there would be if i bought a range of invertors and batteries and rented them out to the end user via the installer so that the end user could still be covered while the unit was being repaired.We dont have a quick repair chain here in Dbn as mostly stuff has to go to JHB or CPT.

If there was a market then I would happily do that and installers can contact me for a rental unit.

We all have our different comfort levels and to work out how much would i pay to rent an invertor or battery for a month (either shorter or longer) depends on the individual.

It would be a nice service for the installers to have as it seems that the retailers/wholesalers of these often dont have loan units.

Any feedback would be great.

I was thinking of getting 5 and 8 kw invertors and and range of different batteries.Obviously if a client only has1 battery then we dont have the mix and match issue.

There is zero risk for the installer as all the cost would be from my side and then a reasonable weekly/monthly rental price would need to be calculated.

[Bobster.]

Batteries I can see. Inverters not, because of the wiring and configuration involved. See I have a Sunsynk that needs looking at, how is that quickly and safely replaced by a Kodak? OK... mabye the client has a Kodak, and then you're in business.

Batteries are much easier to slot into an existing installation. I think here you have to be less worried about the make, other than that it must be a name the folks have heard of.

[Greglsh]

With regards to the inverters, maybe stock the 3 most common ones in SA (SunSynk, Solis, Kodak) .Kodak could maybe cover most of the Axpert type inverters. I am just guessing the 3 top but you get what I mean. 

[PsyCLown]

2 hours ago, Greglsh said:

With regards to the inverters, maybe stock the 3 most common ones in SA (SunSynk, Solis, Kodak) .Kodak could maybe cover most of the Axpert type inverters. I am just guessing the 3 top but you get what I mean. 

I think Luxpower is more popular / common than the Kodak inverters. Solis is still on the newer side, I doubt many installs with Solis inverters at the moment.

 

I do agree with stocking multiple brands of inverters, although what about potential damage to the equipment from lightning or Eskom? Who will cover the costs then?

Imagine getting a rental inverter only for lightning to strike a few days later and blow the rental inverter.

[Nicholas Strachan]

Thanks for the replies.

Obviously one cannot mix up batteries and have to stick to the same type.

Regarding the invertor ,I replaced my 5kw Luxpower with an 8kw Sunsynk and it was non event regarding wiring.

I was thinking of getting a few 5k Luxpowers, a couple of 5 and 8 kw sunsynks.

I would assume the risk of lightning strike and any damage to the inverter.It would be a risk I would take.

I would like to hear your thoughts on what you think a client would pay for a month of renting an inverter in order to keep having their system while repairs are being done and the same goes for a battery.

[PsyCLown]

23 minutes ago, Nicholas Strachan said:

Thanks for the replies.

Obviously one cannot mix up batteries and have to stick to the same type.

Regarding the invertor ,I replaced my 5kw Luxpower with an 8kw Sunsynk and it was non event regarding wiring.

I was thinking of getting a few 5k Luxpowers, a couple of 5 and 8 kw sunsynks.

I would assume the risk of lightning strike and any damage to the inverter.It would be a risk I would take.

I would like to hear your thoughts on what you think a client would pay for a month of renting an inverter in order to keep having their system while repairs are being done and the same goes for a battery.

Some Luxpower inverters & Sunsynk inverters sound pretty good, lots of installs with both inverters and compatibility with batteries is great on both.

 

As for pricing, well, there would likely be a charge from the electrician / installer to install the rental unit and then remove it and install the original inverter / battery once it has been repaired or replaced. Also those who are financing their solar system would still need to pay for the repayment plus these additional costs.

So the rental portion would likely just be a part of the cost to not be stuck without a battery and/or inverter. Would there be a clause to ensure people do not just permanently rent equipment from you as opposed to buying their own?

 

As for rental price, I would like to see prices from R500 to R1500 per month, if its more than that I would find it hard to justify and would really need to weight up the pros and cons. This is specifically for batteries & Luxpower inverter / 5KW Sunsynk.

Keeping in mind how much savings one might get from their PV array per month. Also the fact that for most people it is not necessarily essential to have an inverter and batteries, yes load shedding sucks but it would only be for a limited time. For a business it might be a different story, no inverter and/or battery could mean a loss of income for the business.

One could also look at purchasing a used battery and/or inverter, using it for the month or however long and then selling it again. Might be slightly more hassle but one would not lose much money I feel. Finding the used equipment might be more of a challenge but there are already a few FB groups for used equipment etc.

 

What did you have in mind in terms of rental prices per month?

Edited January 29 by PsyCLown

[Scorp007]

15 minutes ago, PsyCLown said:

Some Luxpower inverters & Sunsynk inverters sound pretty good, lots of installs with both inverters and compatibility with batteries is great on both.

 

As for pricing, well, there would likely be a charge from the electrician / installer to install the rental unit and then remove it and install the original inverter / battery once it has been repaired or replaced. Also those who are financing their solar system would still need to pay for the repayment plus these additional costs.

So the rental portion would likely just be a part of the cost to not be stuck without a battery and/or inverter. Would there be a clause to ensure people do not just permanently rent equipment from you as opposed to buying their own?

 

As for rental price, I would like to see prices from R500 to R1500 per month, if its more than that I would find it hard to justify and would really need to weight up the pros and cons. This is specifically for batteries & Luxpower inverter / 5KW Sunsynk.

Keeping in mind how much savings one might get from their PV array per month. Also the fact that for most people it is not necessarily essential to have an inverter and batteries, yes load shedding sucks but it would only be for a limited time. For a business it might be a different story, no inverter and/or battery could mean a loss of income for the business.

One could also look at purchasing a used battery and/or inverter, using it for the month or however long and then selling it again. Might be slightly more hassle but one would not lose much money I feel. Finding the used equipment might be more of a challenge but there are already a few FB groups for used equipment etc.

 

What did you have in mind in terms of rental prices per month?

My point would be the old Solis RHI does not have the volumes to justify. The new hybrid is already on an exchange basis. 

@Bobster. I did not see any mention of not renting a like for like. It is mentioned to start of offering the service on a 5 and 8kW Sunsynk/Deye as this seems to be where the most volume is coupled with the long delay for repairs.

Some installers do have a spare unit for the brand indicated. I do get the feeling it is rare if we look at how many installers there are. 

We can chat about it but at the end I think the feeling amongst installers would be what carries weight as the will be the guys using the service. Users can at least take notice of it. 

For a business case perhaps we need to look at other rental items. R500 a week seems too lean but yes there is also the courier cost unless it is rolled out in a number of metros. 

An idea with merit. 

Just me thinking. 

[Nicholas Strachan]

54 minutes ago, PsyCLown said:

Some Luxpower inverters & Sunsynk inverters sound pretty good, lots of installs with both inverters and compatibility with batteries is great on both.

 

As for pricing, well, there would likely be a charge from the electrician / installer to install the rental unit and then remove it and install the original inverter / battery once it has been repaired or replaced. Also those who are financing their solar system would still need to pay for the repayment plus these additional costs.

So the rental portion would likely just be a part of the cost to not be stuck without a battery and/or inverter. Would there be a clause to ensure people do not just permanently rent equipment from you as opposed to buying their own?

 

As for rental price, I would like to see prices from R500 to R1500 per month, if its more than that I would find it hard to justify and would really need to weight up the pros and cons. This is specifically for batteries & Luxpower inverter / 5KW Sunsynk.

Keeping in mind how much savings one might get from their PV array per month. Also the fact that for most people it is not necessarily essential to have an inverter and batteries, yes load shedding sucks but it would only be for a limited time. For a business it might be a different story, no inverter and/or battery could mean a loss of income for the business.

One could also look at purchasing a used battery and/or inverter, using it for the month or however long and then selling it again. Might be slightly more hassle but one would not lose much money I feel. Finding the used equipment might be more of a challenge but there are already a few FB groups for used equipment etc.

 

What did you have in mind in terms of rental prices per month?

I was thinking of around R1000 pm for a rental of either a battery or in inverter on a pro rata basis.

I just know myself that if my inverter was gone for a month then I would not want to be without my system so 1k wouldnt make me blink and as you said there are continued electricity savings with having a loaner rather than nothing.

[JayMardern]

2 minutes ago, Nicholas Strachan said:

I was thinking of around R1000 pm for a rental of either a battery or in inverter on a pro rata basis.

I just know myself that if my inverter was gone for a month then I would not want to be without my system so 1k wouldnt make me blink and as you said there are continued electricity savings with having a loaner rather than nothing.

Makes sense - in the event of a solar system being out of service, a lot of the time R1k per month will easily pay for itself in terms of the production that would be lost with an out-of-service system!

[Nicholas Strachan]

I have 3 Hubble am 2 batteries.If someone in the Durban area needs a battery for a client then we can do a test run.The installer can remove one of mine but prior to that obviously ask the client if they are prepared to pay R 1000 for a month of using it.Its up to the installer to charge what they want for the work done.I am assuming the risk as its my battery /inverter.It would be an interesting exercise and its a great service for installers to offer.

I am in Hillcrest so it really would only suit Durban clients.

My number is 0726025119.

[Dylboy]

On my side as an installer I could have used a rental battery about 3 times already. 

As for the costs it's tough on who fits that bill the client or installer. 

Installer you choose the battery with the system so not the clients fault it failed  nor installer fault.

Client trusted the installer for advice etc and the installer trusted the material used.

So with that at the height of my battery issues R500 a week is something I could handle to just get the job sorted. Probably even R800 to 1k.

It's a tough one as I am not big to keep loan units and when equipment fails it's really hard.

It's tough as the price someone can pay is difficult. 

To me the manufacturer/supplier of the equipment must do loan units yet they don't and it's a huge killer.

Edited January 29 by Dylboy

[Nicholas Strachan]

3 minutes ago, Dylboy said:

On my side as an installer I could have used a rental battery about 3 times already. 

As for the costs it's tough on who fits that bill the client or installer. 

Installer you choose the battery with the system so not the clients fault it failed  nor installer fault.

Client trusted the installer for advice etc and the installer trusted the material used.

So with that at the height of my battery issues R500 a week is something I could handle to just get the job sorted. Probably even R800 to 1k.

It's a tough one as I am not big to keep loan units and when equipment fails it's really hard.

It's tough as the price someone can pay is difficult. 

To me the manufacturer/supplier of the equipment must do loan units yet they don't and it's a huge killer.

Thanks for the reply.

I think the client should pay for it ,of course it depends on the circumstances.

If the client is prepared to go without batteries or inverter while theirs is being fixed then so be it , but from an installers perspective i think it would be a nice service and unstrapping a battery off my wall or just taking one away from my stock is easy.

[Dylboy]

Yes ya I agree. And look I am sure they would have gone with it to get a battery in to keep lights on etc.

I have also considered doing loan units etc, almost plug and play, but first I need my numbers to match on the lotto.

So I do believe there is a need for the loan service, especially when warranty times start expiring...

[Greglsh]

I think this could be a great service for the installers to use. You could go to your clients and say "If something happens to your inverter or battery, I am able to organise a loan unit while yours is in for repairs at a a cost of "+_ R1000 per month". You could then also say to the client without the inverter or battery you could be losing out on +_ that amount on solar production so it basically it might cost you your installers rate to do the change. I would say to start with 5kw/8Kw SunSynk's and maybe 5kw Luxpower.

[Nicholas Strachan]

2 minutes ago, Greglsh said:

I think this could be a great service for the installers to use. You could go to your clients and say "If something happens to your inverter or battery, I am able to organise a loan unit while yours is in for repairs at a a cost of "+_ R1000 per month". You could then also say to the client without the inverter or battery you could be losing out on +_ that amount on solar production so it basically it might cost you your installers rate to do the change. I would say to start with 5kw/8Kw SunSynk's and maybe 5kw Luxpower.

I was thinking of exactly those inverters.The 8kw I would have to charge a bit more for as they cost more than the 5kw but that can be worked out.

As you said a 5 kw luxpower as well plus some batteries.

[JayMardern]

1 minute ago, Nicholas Strachan said:

I was thinking of exactly those inverters.The 8kw I would have to charge a bit more for as they cost more than the 5kw but that can be worked out.

 

Yes, and the higher typical PV production of an 8kW install vs a 5kW install would probably help to justify this.

And we know the idea has legs already because one of the reasons for the mass success of long-term PV rentals in SA (despite their questionable long-term financial prospects vs owning a system) is because these systems offset their own costs with PV production, which makes them a relatively easy sell.

The tougher sell would be backup-power-only installs that lack PV.

[Greglsh]

5 minutes ago, JayMardern said:

Yes, and the higher typical PV production of an 8kW install vs a 5kW install would probably help to justify this.

And we know the idea has legs already because one of the reasons for the mass success of long-term PV rentals in SA (despite their questionable long-term financial prospects vs owning a system) is because these systems offset their own costs with PV production, which makes them a relatively easy sell.

The tougher sell would be backup-power-only installs that lack PV.

Agree, but then they were not off setting their bill anyway, they have spent the money to maybe" not have load shedding", so they would have to decide do they want to wait for repair and have load shedding or pay the extra for say a month and not?

[Bobster.]

2 hours ago, Scorp007 said:

Some installers do have a spare unit for the brand indicated. I do get the feeling it is rare if we look at how many installers there are. 

The guys I bought from have a 10kWh battery for helping out clients in need, but obvs you can't be fussy about the brand. I wouldn't be. Any port in storm. I don't know how much they charge.

[Bobster.]

I'd think there's a need too for guys who provide after sales service, the sort of guy you call on when your system is out of the installer's 12 month warranty and is playing up. 

Difficult though, because troubleshooting a Goodwe and a Sunsynk are not the same thing.

I think there's lots of opportunities opening up. I've been contacted by a company who, for a monthly fee, will come out twice a year, clean your panels, check the wiring and carry out a "full system test" and "measurements". That's not fixing anything, but it may at least give you some warning of impending failure. Depends on what the "full system test" is. I have a Goodwe, and it's hardly the most popular brand in South Africa. Deye/Sunsynk and the various Voltronics clones outnumber my Goodwe by far.

Wouldn't it be nice if, like cars, all these inverters had a single diagnostic port that somebody could plug into and ... well... diagnose.

[Nicholas Strachan]

Well if anyone who is in the greater durban area needs a battery on loan for a client then let me know.

I am happy to go ahead and buy some inverters and batteries if i see some requests coming through.

[PsyCLown]

For batteries, things get a little more challenging.

In my situation I have 3 batteries, what if one of mine needs to go in for repairs and for some reason its going to be a long wait and I'd like to rent a battery to ensure I can get through loadshedding without worries... or maybe the substation in my area is out and I would like to temporarily increase my battery bank capacity until the substation is back up and running?

 

The way I see it, the batteries do not need to be a 100% match. One can always run batteries without coms and use voltage settings.

Chemistries need to match & number of cells need to match.

So LFP (LiFePO4 / Lithium Iron Phosphate) 16 cell battery. Unfortunately there are some 15 cell LFP but not sure how popular / common they are?

Then NMC batteries like the Hubble & Pylon Tech

 

I guess one would possibly need 24V option as well as 48v & 51.2v options? Fortunately LFP is very popular and majority of newer batteries are all LFP and majority are 16 cell and not 15 cell.

 

However where this could become a problem is with warranties. Some manufacturers are shitty and want to void the warranty if the battery or inverter is used without coms.

I guess this is a risk the client would need to take and consider. Luxpower & Svolt do not care, so wouldn't be an issue for me but for others it could be.

[Scorp007]

12 hours ago, Bobster. said:

Wouldn't it be nice if, like cars, all these inverters had a single diagnostic port that somebody could plug into and ... well... diagnose.

We just have to look how many cars were on the road vs inverters. 

It was only from about 2006 it saw the light in cars. I guess it took more than 10yrs.

[Nicholas Strachan]

15 hours ago, PsyCLown said:

For batteries, things get a little more challenging.

In my situation I have 3 batteries, what if one of mine needs to go in for repairs and for some reason its going to be a long wait and I'd like to rent a battery to ensure I can get through loadshedding without worries... or maybe the substation in my area is out and I would like to temporarily increase my battery bank capacity until the substation is back up and running?

 

The way I see it, the batteries do not need to be a 100% match. One can always run batteries without coms and use voltage settings.

Chemistries need to match & number of cells need to match.

So LFP (LiFePO4 / Lithium Iron Phosphate) 16 cell battery. Unfortunately there are some 15 cell LFP but not sure how popular / common they are?

Then NMC batteries like the Hubble & Pylon Tech

 

I guess one would possibly need 24V option as well as 48v & 51.2v options? Fortunately LFP is very popular and majority of newer batteries are all LFP and majority are 16 cell and not 15 cell.

 

However where this could become a problem is with warranties. Some manufacturers are shitty and want to void the warranty if the battery or inverter is used without coms.

I guess this is a risk the client would need to take and consider. Luxpower & Svolt do not care, so wouldn't be an issue for me but for others it could be.

At the end of the day its up to the client if they want to rent a unit so that the lights stay on in loadshedding and up to the installer  to explain the possible limitations of having a rental unit for a month or so that isnt exactly the same as what they are having fixed.

[Bobster.]

8 hours ago, Scorp007 said:

We just have to look how many cars were on the road vs inverters. 

Yes. I'm just feeling left out because I have a Goodwe. I have an electrician coming today who has done a lot of work with PV systems and has installed a few. And I already know what's going to happen: He'll take one look at the Goodwe and screw his face up. "Ugh! What's THAT?" He doesn't have to do any work on the inverter or it's installation, but I am used to people arriving here and pulling faces at my inverter.

Victron, Sunsynk, Voltronic... everybody is in their comfort zone.

[Scorp007]

3 hours ago, Bobster. said:

Yes. I'm just feeling left out because I have a Goodwe. I have an electrician coming today who has done a lot of work with PV systems and has installed a few. And I already know what's going to happen: He'll take one look at the Goodwe and screw his face up. "Ugh! What's THAT?" He doesn't have to do any work on the inverter or it's installation, but I am used to people arriving here and pulling faces at my inverter.

Victron, Sunsynk, Voltronic... everybody is in their comfort zone.

Don't worry. I used to drive Fiats and guess what. Today I drive a very old WORST 4X4XFAR and just love it even at 23yrs old. But I do know the day will come that........ 

Then SWAMBO drives a town car that's 16yrs old and have never even put in water outside of services. The best car even. 

Edited January 31 by Scorp007