I read the following and know nothing about the rules and reg's, plz help me understand or advise me on what to do..

Yelland agreed with the Electrical Contractors Association of South Africa (Ecasa), who previously told MyBroadband that using an ECSA-registered person for embedded generation was unnecessary.

“According to the Electrical Installation Regulations 2009, an Installation Electrician (IE) can work on any electrical installation, except for specialised or hazardous locations,” Ecasa said.

“Similarly, a Master Installation Electrician (MIE) is permitted to work on any installation, covering AC voltages up to 1,000 volts and DC installations up to 1,500 volts.”

While not a requirement, Yelland and Ecasa have explained that a standard already existed to enable qualified electricians to approve embedded generation systems.

South Africa had already adopted the IEC 60349-7-712 standard — renamed SANS 60364-7-712 — to address the necessary technicalities and appropriate safety standards on solar PV system installations.

Yelland believes that Eskom has overstepped the mark by putting this requirement in the NRS and will be required to take it out.

“Things will go back to what exists at the moment, which is that the system has to be signed off with a CoC issued by a registered electrician or electrical contractor,” he said.

Never believe anything Eksdom say !

It may well be a good point that it is unnecessary to involve an engineer for the electrical side of things. However, is it Eskom's doing? COCT require an engineer to sign off. So do City Power in Johannesburg. They are not Eskom. I suspect that it is the SANS regulations (from which all these utilities regulations derive) that is the villain of the piece.

I am dubious either way. I am trying to get my property COCed right now. I am not selling, but I have long been suspicious about the wiring in my house, and if I get COCs then I feel like everything is done right. When I moved into this house the COC was issued by a guy who'd never had anything to do with the property. Another electrician found a fire risk caused by circuit breakers that were rated higher than the cable they were protecting was rated at. There were other issues. I remember plugs that worked some of the time. Turns out that when an extension was built into the house whoever did the wiring didn't go all the way back to the DB and add a circuit breaker, they just connected the new sockets to the cable feeding the geyser (no junction box, just insulation tape). I put a timer on the geyser and so the plugs would only work when the geyser had power.

So my electrician (#1) sorted it out (he told me). Recently when I was finally getting the place COCed, electrician #2 (next guy to look at my wiring) tells me that electrician #1 had not done his work according to code. This was to do with the way the sub-db was mounted, and the way that cables were entering switch boxes. The cable was correct for the breakers.

Electrician #1 had initially told me he was unhappy about the PV installation because the cables in the roof weren't in conduits.. Then he came back to me and said he'd checked with his mates and it's all OK because the PV system is regarded as an appliance (I heard you say "huh?" or words to that effect as you read that). He was also worried about some AC wiring in the ceiling, then came back to me and said it was legal when installed so still OK now. Whether or not that is a correct statement I can't say (I suspect not. I can remember a time when earth leakage wasn't mandated). Anyway, for various reasons he never finished the job and I didn't get a COC out of him.

Electrician #2 replaced the wiring that was said to be correct at installation time. Also found some other faults. Gave me a COC which excluded the PV system (my mistake, I should have clarified the requirement). So now I am dealing with electrician #3 who inspected and then declined to issue a COC because of the missing conduit referred to. He also said that the panels are not earthed.

The drawing that an engineer signed off on for my SSEG registration clearly shows the panels to be earthed. Somebody has got something wrong here.

It's a minefield! Apart from the guys who are in business to give you a COC at a set price without having to do any of that pesky inspection stuff, there seems to be confusion as to what codes do and don't stipulate.

I hope I haven't upset the installers who frequent this forum. I'm sure they do good, rigorous work, and I'm sure that most electricians try to. But when it comes to just getting certitficates it seems to me that some folks do it properly and others just want to take your money and give you a piece of paper. And there's lots of confusion about what the standards actually require. If electrician #1 had finished the job I would have a COC but suspect AC wiring in the roof and no mention of my PV system because that's an appliance.

Edited April 23, 20251 yr by Bobster.

2 hours ago, Bobster. said:

It may well be a good point that it is unnecessary to involve an engineer for the electrical side of things. However, is it Eskom's doing? COCT require an engineer to sign off. So do City Power in Johannesburg. They are not Eskom. I suspect that it is the SANS regulations (from which all these utilities regulations derive) that is the villain of the piece.

I am dubious either way. I am trying to get my property COCed right now. I am not selling, but I have long been suspicious about the wiring in my house, and if I get COCs then I feel like everything is done right. When I moved into this house the COC was issued by a guy who'd never had anything to do with the property. Another electrician found a fire risk caused by circuit breakers that were rated higher than the cable they were protecting was rated at. There were other issues. I remember plugs that worked some of the time. Turns out that when an extension was built into the house whoever did the wiring didn't go all the way back to the DB and add a circuit breaker, they just connected the new sockets to the cable feeding the geyser (no junction box, just insulation tape). I put a timer on the geyser and so the plugs would only work when the geyser had power.

So my electrician (#1) sorted it out (he told me). Recently when I was finally getting the place COCed, electrician #2 (next guy to look at my wiring) tells me that electrician #1 had not done his work according to code. This was to do with the way the sub-db was mounted, and the way that cables were entering switch boxes. The cable was correct for the breakers.

Electrician #1 had initially told me he was unhappy about the PV installation because the cables in the roof weren't in conduits.. Then he came back to me and said he'd checked with his mates and it's all OK because the PV system is regarded as an appliance (I heard you say "huh?" or words to that effect as you read that). He was also worried about some AC wiring in the ceiling, then came back to me and said it was legal when installed so still OK now. Whether or not that is a correct statement I can't say (I suspect not. I can remember a time when earth leakage wasn't mandated). Anyway, for various reasons he never finished the job and I didn't get a COC out of him.

Electrician #2 replaced the wiring that was said to be correct at installation time. Also found some other faults. Gave me a COC which excluded the PV system (my mistake, I should have clarified the requirement). So now I am dealing with electrician #3 who inspected and then declined to issue a COC because of the missing conduit referred to. He also said that the panels are not earthed.

The drawing that an engineer signed off on for my SSEG registration clearly shows the panels to be earthed. Somebody has got something wrong here.

It's a minefield! Apart from the guys who are in business to give you a COC at a set price without having to do any of that pesky inspection stuff, there seems to be confusion as to what codes do and don't stipulate.

I hope I haven't upset the installers who frequent this forum. I'm sure they do good, rigorous work, and I'm sure that most electricians try to. But when it comes to just getting certitficates it seems to me that some folks do it properly and others just want to take your money and give you a piece of paper. And there's lots of confusion about what the standards actually require. If electrician #1 had finished the job I would have a COC but suspect AC wiring in the roof and no mention of my PV system because that's an appliance.

It's a worrying jungle out there with regards to Electrical work and that's just not a problem in South Africa, by the way... standards have plummeted to ridiculously gutter levels. My 2-cents would be, perhaps, to get an electrician to do the work and pay him/her 80-90% of their fee, balance once inspection is done. You then get an independent inspector who you get through someone else or directly from Inspector's Office and when the inspection is being done, both the Electrical installer and Inspector are on sight together and once this is done and outstanding issues are ironed out and a CoC is received the Electrician get's his/her balance.

And no, it's not going to be easy but having a peace-of-mind against fire hazards as well as your insurance is worth a lot, in my humble view and off course, it's unfortunately time consuming and not cheap either.

Also it helps to note that regulations do change or are updated with time, so things that were acceptable in the past may not be now and in some instances there's areas of contention between the "experts" themselves as to what is right and even what the code means or the import of what the code means. This actually means, even without a Solar installation, a lot of properties are not even up to "code" anymore sadly, which is worrying should Eskom or a Municipality see a loophole or opportunity to siphon money from consumers and then suddenly you get them saying ALL PROPERTIES now need an inspection and it's a owner's cost or something stupid like that.

Believe me, am not rumor-mongering see attached of what was proposed in Zimbabwe but is currently suspended, though not abandoned, but you can imagine the amount of money that would have raked in for every household inspection.

Edited April 23, 20251 yr by Moffat
Added more info.

5 hours ago, Bobster. said:

It may well be a good point that it is unnecessary to involve an engineer for the electrical side of things. However, is it Eskom's doing? COCT require an engineer to sign off. So do City Power in Johannesburg. They are not Eskom. I suspect that it is the SANS regulations (from which all these utilities regulations derive) that is the villain of the piece.

I am dubious either way. I am trying to get my property COCed right now. I am not selling, but I have long been suspicious about the wiring in my house, and if I get COCs then I feel like everything is done right. When I moved into this house the COC was issued by a guy who'd never had anything to do with the property. Another electrician found a fire risk caused by circuit breakers that were rated higher than the cable they were protecting was rated at. There were other issues. I remember plugs that worked some of the time. Turns out that when an extension was built into the house whoever did the wiring didn't go all the way back to the DB and add a circuit breaker, they just connected the new sockets to the cable feeding the geyser (no junction box, just insulation tape). I put a timer on the geyser and so the plugs would only work when the geyser had power.

So my electrician (#1) sorted it out (he told me). Recently when I was finally getting the place COCed, electrician #2 (next guy to look at my wiring) tells me that electrician #1 had not done his work according to code. This was to do with the way the sub-db was mounted, and the way that cables were entering switch boxes. The cable was correct for the breakers.

Electrician #1 had initially told me he was unhappy about the PV installation because the cables in the roof weren't in conduits.. Then he came back to me and said he'd checked with his mates and it's all OK because the PV system is regarded as an appliance (I heard you say "huh?" or words to that effect as you read that). He was also worried about some AC wiring in the ceiling, then came back to me and said it was legal when installed so still OK now. Whether or not that is a correct statement I can't say (I suspect not. I can remember a time when earth leakage wasn't mandated). Anyway, for various reasons he never finished the job and I didn't get a COC out of him.

Electrician #2 replaced the wiring that was said to be correct at installation time. Also found some other faults. Gave me a COC which excluded the PV system (my mistake, I should have clarified the requirement). So now I am dealing with electrician #3 who inspected and then declined to issue a COC because of the missing conduit referred to. He also said that the panels are not earthed.

The drawing that an engineer signed off on for my SSEG registration clearly shows the panels to be earthed. Somebody has got something wrong here.

It's a minefield! Apart from the guys who are in business to give you a COC at a set price without having to do any of that pesky inspection stuff, there seems to be confusion as to what codes do and don't stipulate.

I hope I haven't upset the installers who frequent this forum. I'm sure they do good, rigorous work, and I'm sure that most electricians try to. But when it comes to just getting certitficates it seems to me that some folks do it properly and others just want to take your money and give you a piece of paper. And there's lots of confusion about what the standards actually require. If electrician #1 had finished the job I would have a COC but suspect AC wiring in the roof and no mention of my PV system because that's an appliance.

Thanks, yeah i had some experience with electricians when I sold my previous house. Days after the new owner moved in she ph me to let me know she is going to take me to court because there are problems with the electrical system as per HER ELECTRICIAN... I just cut the call..are they out to make money and find problems with every house/installation..My house is new, 4 yrs old, but I will get an electrician to come and check out the Solar installation and get the paperwork in place, don't think I will register the system with the Municipality, well not yet..

2 hours ago, Moffat said:

It's a worrying jungle out there with regards to Electrical work and that's just not a problem in South Africa, by the way... standards have plummeted to ridiculously gutter levels. My 2-cents would be, perhaps, to get an electrician to do the work and pay him/her 80-90% of their fee, balance once inspection is done. You then get an independent inspector who you get through someone else or directly from Inspector's Office and when the inspection is being done, both the Electrical installer and Inspector are on sight together and once this is done and outstanding issues are ironed out and a CoC is received the Electrician get's his/her balance.

It's hard to keep track of who is doing/has done what. My Dad was a bricklayer. I remember going on site with him when we lived in England (late 60s). Inspectors could pop up and check the work you were busy with. Not just the quality of the work but also against the plans. They could flatten a wall they didn't think was being properly built. My recollection is that they didn't check EVERY job, they checked at random. So you never knew if your work would be checked or not.

Of course they would know about new developments where planning permission had been sought. They wouldn't know about (for EG) extensions to existing dwellings where nobody bothered with all the paperwork.

People also want the job done cheap. Something has to give here. A properly done job can only get so cheap, thereafter you have to start cutting corners. I like the guy who came to look at my PV system. He said he's not going to sign off knowing that there's a fire risk. He feels he should tell me about the risk, and he won't sign off if there are problems that he knows about. So that's going to cost me a bit, but at least he's being straight up with me.

The COC I got when I bought this house was signed by somebody who'd never seen it. The electrician who had last worked in the house was not actually licensed to work here. He is licensed in Mozambique. I was surprised at how candid he was. So he tells me he can't sign off on a COC, but it's no problem because there's this other guy you can go to who will sign a COC for a couple of grand.

14 minutes ago, Saluki said:

Thanks, yeah i had some experience with electricians when I sold my previous house. Days after the new owner moved in she ph me to let me know she is going to take me to court because there are problems with the electrical system as per HER ELECTRICIAN... I just cut the call..are they out to make money and find problems with every house/installation..My house is new, 4 yrs old, but I will get an electrician to come and check out the Solar installation and get the paperwork in place, don't think I will register the system with the Municipality, well not yet..

This is the other side of the coin. When I bought this house I had a falling out with the seller. She said that I was accusing her of lying. I said no, you have been open and honest, but people you put your trust in did shoddy work and it looks like some of them deceived you.

1 hour ago, Saluki said:

Thanks, yeah i had some experience with electricians when I sold my previous house. Days after the new owner moved in she ph me to let me know she is going to take me to court because there are problems with the electrical system as per HER ELECTRICIAN... I just cut the call..are they out to make money and find problems with every house/installation..My house is new, 4 yrs old, but I will get an electrician to come and check out the Solar installation and get the paperwork in place, don't think I will register the system with the Municipality, well not yet..

Surely in your 'Agreement of sale', there was a clause you are selling the property "voetstoots" (as is), with no warranties on anything, otherwise someone will scare-monger the new buyer into engaging them as well as "certified inspectors" who have received a brown envelope to try and get some money off you as well as the new owner.

38 minutes ago, Moffat said:

Surely in your 'Agreement of sale', there was a clause you are selling the property "voetstoots" (as is), with no warranties on anything, otherwise someone will scare-monger the new buyer into engaging them as well as "certified inspectors" who have received a brown envelope to try and get some money off you as well as the new owner.

The thing is you're required to provide a COC. That's a document that says that all the wiring in the house is up to standard. It has to be dated close to the date of sale. So the wiring isn't voetstoets. The COC implies that it has been inspected and given the OK by a competent person. I don't see that the buyer has a case against @Saluki , but there may be one against whoever signed the COC.

NB! I am not a lawyer.

Edited April 23, 20251 yr by Bobster.
added disclaimer

Just now, Bobster. said:

The COC implies that it has been inspected and given the OK by a competent person. I don't see that the buyer has a case against @Saluki , but there may be one against whoever signed the COC.

When I bought the house I currently live in and found problems with the wiring, I didn't make any moves against the seller. I did phone up the contractors board and complain about the guy who had signed the COC and the unlicensed electrician who had gone to him for a COC. They couldn't do anything about the electrician because he's not licensed and therefore not answerable to them. AIUI they did take action against the guy who signed off the COC, but that might have been telling him he's very naughty.

5 hours ago, Bobster. said:

The thing is you're required to provide a COC. That's a document that says that all the wiring in the house is up to standard. It has to be dated close to the date of sale. So the wiring isn't voetstoets. The COC implies that it has been inspected and given the OK by a competent person. I don't see that the buyer has a case against @Saluki , but there may be one against whoever signed the COC.

NB! I am not a lawyer.

@Bobster. At law both may be at fault (person who signed CoC & Owner) depending on circumstances such as:

1. Did owner engage the person who signed the CoC from the Authorised Board that certifies such persons?;

2. Did owner verify that person who signed the CoC is certified with the local Authorising Board?;

   ...if the non of the above was done, it then warrants further investigation as to whether this was a pre-meditated effort to dupe a prospective buyer, which is difficult to prove, in any case.

Sadly this may result in some penalties on both the person signing the CoC and the property seller, but at most a slap on the wrist should suffice on the part of the seller, but on the person signing the CoC, it then goes to the heart of misrepresentation and fraud.

That said, it all depends on how far the new property owner wishes to pursue the whole matter, "in toto". For the avoidance of doubt for forumites it will be important therefore to ensure that any CoC you receive is from a bonafide individual who is legally authorised and is STILL certified, as some may have been de-registered as happens with lawyers through the Law Society, hence insulating oneself from potential litigation as a fraudster or co-conspirator.

All that said, engaging in conversation with the owner may avert all unnecessary stress of the unknown to reach an amicable resolution before anything escalates to litigation levels and also doing due diligence on person who did the CoC.

Edited April 23, 20251 yr by Moffat

The new owner had a problem with the garage door motors on an extension lead. Then the contractor built the garage, we did not ask for the garage to be electrified. Years later, I replaced the garage doors with metal pop-up doors, and the installer added motors to the doors. it was a nice deal, and I went for it. An electrician installed an electrical cable from the DB to the garage with a plug in the garage and issued a COC.. I asked him what about the motors, and he said use a lead, and that's what I did..The new owner did not like the lead, she wanted the motor wires to be in a metal/plastic pipe..PPL use electrical leads for about everything. The garage door motors in my new house also run with a lead to the plugs on the roof rafters. I did not worry about her crap

15 hours ago, Bobster. said:

The thing is you're required to provide a COC. That's a document that says that all the wiring in the house is up to standard. It has to be dated close to the date of sale. So the wiring isn't voetstoets. The COC implies that it has been inspected and given the OK by a competent person. I don't see that the buyer has a case against @Saluki , but there may be one against whoever signed the COC.

NB! I am not a lawyer.

Had an interesting chat with the engineer who came to check my solar installation and he had a small rant about the COCs. You can get an electrician out to e.g. replace a light switch, then get a COC which only covers the new light switch, and everyone will accept it for a house transfer...

He said he had a job where he was asked to do the COC for a house sale. He drew big red lines and wrote in big red writing that it fails inspection. That the house does not pass COC. Estate agent accepted it. Deeds office accepted it. Transfer went through and then the new owner tried to report him for issuing a bad COC and he had to go and point out the housed failed all checks, it should never have been allowed to be sold.

No use stressing over hypothetical situation @Hyarion . If new owner decides to pursue the matter as already inferred here, you should be in the clear. The due diligence and burden of it rests the most with:

1. Buyer; and

2. Estate Agent... and both am sure will definitely have ways to cover themselves and you will be in the clear.

13 hours ago, Moffat said:

@Bobster. At law both may be at fault (person who signed CoC & Owner) depending on circumstances such as:

1. Did owner engage the person who signed the CoC from the Authorised Board that certifies such persons?;

This is an important point. Electricians are supposed to carry a card with them which declares that they are an electrician and at what level (not all are able to sign a COC). And the customer is entitled to ask to see that certification.

There are though some individuals who don't care about all that stuff. They just want a COC and how much will that cost?

12 minutes ago, Bobster. said:

This is an important point. Electricians are supposed to carry a card with them which declares that they are an electrician and at what level (not all are able to sign a COC). And the customer is entitled to ask to see that certification.

There are though some individuals who don't care about all that stuff. They just want a COC and how much will that cost?

True @Bobster. in this instance the issue then comes down to if the Electrician is certified, but more importantly if the property seller as for proof of certification or colluded to misrepresent that the CoC was genuine by engaging someone who is not authorised to sign a CoC. The permutations can be ventilated during an investigation should really things degenerate to those levels, which am always of the opinion that a cup of tea and an amiable conversation should not necessitate things going to those levels. In some instances in contracts that is why there is a recourse to arbitration, as a first course of action, so as to save on time and costs of litigation. Soft words in a time of dispute, can resolve many things.