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I am new to the forum and needing sound advice; Buy a Victron Multiplus 48/3000/35-32 or Growatt 3kw and connect to a Pylontech US2000B li-ion


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Well I am very pleased to join the powerforum which I have followed for some time as an retired octogenarian, still able to get things done and living in the Natal midlands. 

In December 2018 I bought a trolley 1 kw pure sine wave inverter online with 2 x 12 volt 100 amp gel batteries. Eighteen months down the road, the batteries and unit no longer work, and the capital cost over 19 months amounts to R800.00 in capital cost per month, considering the short life. I had the unit connected through an independent separate distribution board and a 15 amp plug in each room with an LED globe in the table lamp, used when needed and one medium sized TV with Explora decoder, and when needed used with a desktop PC. It was basically used as a UPS.

As I have no desire to repeat my mistake I have come to the Power-forum members for advice.

I have a limited budget and would like advice on the following choices which I have priced:

1. A Victron Multiplus 48/3000/35-32 (5 year warranty) with one Pylontech US2000B Li-ion battery (7 year warranty) which battery backup size is adequate for the present Eskom load shedding periods. Initially this will be used as a UPS and when the budget permits, to add solar panels. Victron is the very top end of my budget. Otherwise I could try and find a second hand Victron.

2. Alternatively; a Growatt 3kw (5 Year Warranty) or Axpert 3 kw (2 year warranty) inverter which is a much cheaper option and still use a Pylontech US2000B Li-Ion battery with the same usage as above.

3. I have read on this forum and on internet reviews that the Victron is a stable and reliable unit, only much more expensive. The Chinese-Eastern brands are more budget friendly. I have read somewhere that the battery warranty on the Pylontech may require it to be used on a hybrid inverter only, maybe untrue!

The big question, Which or what inverter should I buy? I will definitely only use a Li-Ion battery and will appreciate any advice that you can offer.   -   many thanks - Racer

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Hi gooseberry, thank you for replying. The machine may not be broken as it still charges and delivers power from the batteries for a short time before the low voltage alarm goes and the gradient meter indicates battery voltage low and the main DC switch disconnects. I am reluctant to buy new batteries that last 18 months and without good batteries I cannot be absolutely sure the machine works as it should. The problem is; The low voltage cutoff is set at the highest option of 11.1 volts. Acid batteries apparently should not discharge below 50% or 12.2 volts on a 12 volt battery for it to last. When asked the supplier advised it was not designed to charge Li-Ion, I did specifically say Pylontech. I have just received feedback from the supplier today to say lifepo4 could be used. The supplier has Lifepo4 batteries on order that will work but they are as costly as the Pylontech. Not sure how to go about a DIY lithium pack, can you advise?  

 

.

 

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Racer, I have recently bought a Victron 48V 3Kva Multiplus II and some other hardware that compliment/supplement it.

It is a great unit, and what I like the most about it, is the ease of use and how information is displayed on your phone for example. I am by no means saying that the other models in your budget wont do this, but I have seen some of it. The Sunsync info that is displayed for example is horrible and a nightmare.

If you want a no nonsense plug and play unit, go for a Goodwe or Axpert or Mecer. Plug in and go. The Victron requires a little more from you if you are anything like me. I like to tinker, and adjust and improve etc etc. The Victron will allow this in terms of replacing components as and when you want to upgrade.

That being said, the utmost important thing to consider is what you want from the system. Merely an Eskom backup for light loads? Would you like to reduce your monthly bill a little? Is it an absolute requirement that the system must pay for itself over a given time? Would you like to upgrade the system to a bigger one in a few years etc?

These questions must be answered first as it will determine whether you need a grid tied inverter, an off grid inverter, a hybrid grid tied inverter, or merely a UPS.

I have also just joined this forum today, but happy to share the little that I have picked up in the past month that my system has been running.

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1 hour ago, Racer said:

lifepo4 could be used

Pylontech are also LiFePO4. If you can set the charge voltages, then you can use these with your inverter. 
If you want something that will last a long time and just works, go for the Victron. If you want something that you can will have to tinker/fix, then Axpert clones is a cheap option. Some work well and some don't. 

If you think Victron is a bit more difficult, then you should be looking at the EasySolar(all-in-one) and not the Multiplus(separate components).

Something else you can look at is the BlueNova drop in replacement batteries. They are also lithuim, but build to be able to replace a Lead Acid using those charge voltages.

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3 hours ago, Racer said:

Hi gooseberry, thank you for replying. The machine may not be broken as it still charges and delivers power from the batteries for a short time before the low voltage alarm goes and the gradient meter indicates battery voltage low and the main DC switch disconnects. I am reluctant to buy new batteries that last 18 months and without good batteries I cannot be absolutely sure the machine works as it should. The problem is; The low voltage cutoff is set at the highest option of 11.1 volts. Acid batteries apparently should not discharge below 50% or 12.2 volts on a 12 volt battery for it to last. When asked the supplier advised it was not designed to charge Li-Ion, I did specifically say Pylontech. I have just received feedback from the supplier today to say lifepo4 could be used. The supplier has Lifepo4 batteries on order that will work but they are as costly as the Pylontech. Not sure how to go about a DIY lithium pack, can you advise?  

 

.

 

Hi Racer

It's likely you have a 24V system (2 12V batteries in series) while the US2000 is a 48V bank.  You can look at https://lithiumbatteriessa.co.za/collections/frontpage/products/24v-120ah-3kwh-lifepo4-wall-mount-solar-ups-battery?variant=35354510950567 either get that or buy the cells and BMS listed separately and build it into your trolley. Just check if you can adjust the charging voltages to what Bain recommends on your system.

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Swartkat, thank you for your time and passing on your experience. I really don't need to tinker but I definitely want to be able to configure and set parameters, something the trolley unit I have does not allow. The trolley is a one size fits all unit, connect it up, switch it on was the reason I bought it. Now I am doing what I should have done in the beginning, spending time looking into the ins and outs before parting with more money. I intend adding panels as soon as my budget allows but not immediately as I have to still jump over the first hurdles. Victron seems to have a good reputation and has a building block system allowing one to add-on components, is the extra cost for these justified, if so I will heed the advice of those who have had the experience. Some reports say Chinese sourced units last around 5 years, these may be exceptions. If they stop working can they be repaired after two and a half years and the warranty over? I mentioned the Growatt has a longer warranty (5 Years) and it is a great deal cheaper than a Victron, I was hoping the forum may offer some idea on how long these last. Warranties always sound good but sometimes are not what they seem and the customers ends up paying the price. I am very hesitant to buy anything that leaves me in the lurch.

 

Louisvdv, Many thanks for your input. Charge voltages are fixed by the trolley controller, I cannot change any parameters. The trolley supplier says it will not work with a Pylontech but will with a LifPo4. The Easysolar 48/3000/ on the pricelist is rather more expensive, although does include an MPPT and requires less wiring, switches etc. The Multiplus I know will require those add-ons but they will have to wait until my budget allows. I shall look into the Blue Nova LifPo4, thank you for the recommendations. How does one determine which Axpert clones are best?    

 

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2 hours ago, Louisvdw said:

Pylontech are also LiFePO4. If you can set the charge voltages, then you can use these with your inverter. 
If you want something that will last a long time and just works, go for the Victron. If you want something that you can will have to tinker/fix, then Axpert clones is a cheap option. Some work well and some don't. 

If you think Victron is a bit more difficult, then you should be looking at the EasySolar(all-in-one) and not the Multiplus(separate components).

Something else you can look at is the BlueNova drop in replacement batteries. They are also lithuim, but build to be able to replace a Lead Acid using those charge voltages.

+1 for bluenova, also a good option

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2 hours ago, Louisvdw said:

Pylontech are also LiFePO4. If you can set the charge voltages, then you can use these with your inverter. 
If you want something that will last a long time and just works, go for the Victron. If you want something that you can will have to tinker/fix, then Axpert clones is a cheap option. Some work well and some don't. 

If you think Victron is a bit more difficult, then you should be looking at the EasySolar(all-in-one) and not the Multiplus(separate components).

Something else you can look at is the BlueNova drop in replacement batteries. They are also lithuim, but build to be able to replace a Lead Acid using those charge voltages.

Louisvdv, Many thanks for your input. Charge voltages are fixed by the trolley controller, I cannot change any parameters. The trolley supplier says it will not work with a Pylontech but will with a LifPo4. The Easysolar 48/3000/ on the pricelist is rather more expensive, although does include an MPPT and requires less wiring, switches etc. The Multiplus I know will require those add-ons but they will have to wait until my budget allows. I shall look into the Blue Nova LifPo4, thank you for the recommendations. How does one determine which Axpert clones are best?    

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gooseberry

It's likely you have a 24V system (2 12V batteries in series) while the US2000 is a 48V bank.  You can look at https://lithiumbatteriessa.co.za/collections/frontpage/products/24v-120ah-3kwh-lifepo4-wall-mount-solar-ups-battery?variant=35354510950567 either get that or buy the cells and BMS listed separately and build it into your trolley. Just check if you can adjust the charging voltages to what Bain recommends on your system.

Hi gooseberry

Thank you, I will investigate and make contact with Bain re LifPo4. My hands are tied as far as settings are concerned as I cannot change any parameters on the trolley. It is 2 x 12 volt 100 Ah in series = 24 volt.

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23 minutes ago, Racer said:

How does one determine which Axpert clones are best?    

The real Axperts (also sold as Mecer, RCT, Kodak and many other names) are manufactured by Voltronics, and do not cost much more than the clones.  The clones are often called "Axpert type" inverters and are not good - avoid them.

BTW, there is now a 24V Pylontech - the UP2500.  The main problem with using your existing trolley and this battery (apart from the fact that the voltages may not be right) is that it locks you into 24V.  Most future upgrade paths would probably be better with 48V, although the option you mentioned (Axpert 3kW) is a 24V inverter, and incompatible with the battery you mentioned (US2000, 48V)

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By the way, is this your trolley? I see they specify deep cycle batteries only but it's interesting that they said you can use LifePO4. Do you have any information on the LifePO4 battery they offer? Asking, because I know someone with the same trolley whose batteries may be damaged. Someone put the unit on its side on the back of a bakkie and the batteries shorted. 🙈

https://ecodepot.co.za/products/smart-power-sps-1000-battery-backup-power-supply-with-solar-connector-1000w-batteries-not-included-1

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@Racer if you do want to go the Victron option here are 2 options that you can look at. Both are good.

If you want to do a Victron blue trolly, look at this thread. This is a 12V, but you can do it as a 24V just the same. 

 

The other option is to go full install, using 48V. Something like what I did here 

 

 

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gooseberry

Hi gooseberry, it is the exact model trolley supplied by a CT firm. The firm could not have been more helpful and co-operative with me but I am thinking of selling the unit for what I can get and buying a modular type like the Victron Multiplus after receiving numerous responses on power forum. However I have not made a final decision yet and have not closed my mind to further input from the forum.

The battery spec I received today is:  LifePo4 Battery TE12100C SPECS.pdf

Hope this helps.

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Louisvdw

I apologize for this list of questions before I begin and I hope you can and will be willing to share your knowledge with me. A few items are unfamiliar to me and that is why call on the one who knows to reveal these secrets. I do appreciate your full install 48v Victron system and would like to copy it and use it in my installation if you don't mind. It did not take long to discover that where inverters are concerned, the more I know, the less I find that I know and I am most grateful to those on the forum who have interacted with me and offered valuable advice.

I discovered after looking at the Victron Multiplus installation circuit drawings and following up with the supplier that if I purchase a Victron Multiplus 48/3000/35-32 "non GX version" I will not be able to use a Pylontech US2000B lithium battery without one of the GX add-ons as the VE.Can to Can-Bus BMS cable only works through a GX add-on which in turn enables the Pylontech to "talk" to the Victron.

I don't want to pay for the more expensive GX version or the GX add-on which also comes at a premium. Your stated goals are exactly what I have in mind, to use it as a UPS initially and later add on panels when my budget permits.

Back to your system. You have put together and assembled a DIY LifePo4 battery pack which is well within my capability to put together. Now for the questions: Any idea where I can buy LifePo4 cells similar to yours and what the approximate going rate is for them? The cells appear to be 3.2v each, what is the Ah rating? Is the Victron communicating in anyway with your LifePo4 pack? I have read your carefully provided installation details but am unfamiliar with the Rasberry Pi3. I hope to improve my knowledge of  it and looked up the Rasberry Pi3 to learn that it requires an operating system install followed by the Victron Venus driver and so on. Where does one get the collection of wires that connect the BMS to each cell together with the connector that plugs into the smart BMS? (You provided the source of the BMS which I shall source. By the way is it OK to give card details when buying from China), I have to date avoided ordering from the East with a card. Where can the Bluetooth card and connecting plug to the BMS be bought? Where does one get the cellphone app from? What are the LifePo4 BMS settings and parameters? I gather these must be adjustable using Bluetooth on the android phone with an app. The BMS to battery connections are not 100% clear in your photo. Can you advise me on which wires connect where on the BMS board? I note the BMS board is connected (soldered I presume) on the negative wire only and the fuse is also on the negative. The negative cable looks too large to solder onto the BMS, is it soldered onto the board? Does the BMS not require input from the positive? I cannot clearly make out the connections, perhaps you could advise me on that issue? Also there are two wires that appear to have been attached on either side of the BMS, where do they connect? If I obtain the necessary LifePo4 cells similar to what you have and connect them as per your example, set the BMS which I trust you will advise me on and then connect to the Victron it should work? I don't see a connection from the BMS to the Victron, is that correct? Connected up exactly as you have done, does the Multiplus require any other settings which I see are done on the Victron app installed on a PC using the MK3 cable? I do trust you will not mind me asking further questions as I go along as it is inevitable that I will run into more brick walls.      

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8 minutes ago, Racer said:

Any idea where I can buy LifePo4 cells similar to yours

I suggest https://lithiumbatteriessa.co.za/collections/frontpage?constraint=Cells although they are currently sold out. Those are 120Ah

 

11 minutes ago, Racer said:

I hope to improve my knowledge of  it and looked up the Rasberry Pi3

You just follow the guide on Victron's website. The cables you connect to you get from your Victron supplier, but these need to be the USB versions. If you have a real GX device then the cables is not the USB version which are cheaper. So buying a GX device is expensive, but you save R2000 on the cheaper cables. You need a USB-MK3 cable for the inverter to Pi(R1500) and a USB VE.Direct cable for each SmartSolar controller (R500).

 

16 minutes ago, Racer said:

collection of wires that connect the BMS to each cell together with the connector that plugs into the smart BMS

The BMS has this included. You do need busbar connecters to connect the cells to each other. It also includes the Bluetooth device, but you have to buy the UART extra or source your own. The app is on the website, but I have the enterprise version that has a few extra features unlocked. Link to that in this post. All the BMS and battery settings are done in that app.

 

19 minutes ago, Racer said:

OK to give card details

Same risk as any card details over the internet. I use Paypal to pay, then there is no card details.

1 hour ago, Racer said:

I cannot clearly make out the connections

The BMS B- is connected to the battery negative and the C- common of the BMS is what you connect to the rest of the system. So your complete battery is from the C- as the negative to the battery positive. If the BMS need to disconnect the battery for safety, then no current will flow through the battery and BMS. 
Those cables are think. You do not solder them, but connect them with a lug crimped to the wires. These can then be connected anywhere using bolts.

1 hour ago, Racer said:

If I obtain the necessary LifePo4 cells similar to what you have and connect them as per your example, set the BMS which I trust you will advise me on and then connect to the Victron it should work?

Yes. 

 

1 hour ago, Racer said:

I don't see a connection from the BMS to the Victron, is that correct?

You don't need a connection, but if you do then the State Of Charge of the battery will be more accurate. I've written a driver for this BMS to talk to the Victron inverter through the GX device (the Pi in this case). Click on the link in my footer about the serial battery driver to get more details.

 

1 hour ago, Racer said:

does the Multiplus require any other settings which I see are done on the Victron app installed on a PC using the MK3 cable

Yes some settings for the initial setup. There after the MK3 cable is used for the Pi(GX device) to talk to the inverter.

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Louisvdw

Back again, thank you for the feedback, much appreciated. I do not have an MPPT nor intend adding one at this time, I think you might have your BMS interconnect into the MPPT? I am only looking at purchasing an inverter with the USB MK3 cable. 3.2v 120Ah cells are available right now. Lithium also supplies a BMS, the model BMS does not have bluetooth or outputs to the inverter, would you like to comment on whether you think this might work, the responsibility is mine alone, I would value your opinion? They are out of stock on the smart BMS but if necessary I would wait. I phoned Victron in Durban and asked whether the non GX Victron model would charge the "DIY" Lifepo4 battery without any link between the Victron and DIY LifePo4. The advisor seemed to think it would be OK and would charge according the Victron Lithium settings or the user settings put into the charger. I did mention to the Victron adviser I would use a DIY LifePo4 with independent BMS. (from Lithium Battery) I have read of instances where the Victron has gone into "sleep" mode and does not want to wake up and the battery can be low after use, have you ever had that problem? Is there any advantage in me getting the GX model? The GX does offer remote monitoring but I don't necessarily need something that is a nice to have. Not sure whether it will assist in connecting to the DIY LifePo4. I cannot be far off ordering my components.     

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1 hour ago, Racer said:

I think you might have your BMS interconnect into the MPPT.
Is there any advantage in me getting the GX model? 
The GX does offer remote monitoring but I don't necessarily need something that is a nice to have

No. Everything connects to the GX device (the Pi in my case). So the MPPT, the BMS and the inverter connects to the GX device.
The GX is the brain of the system. If you do not have a GX device, then nothing talks to each other.
On top of managing everything, it then also offer remote monitoring.
My suggestion will be to take the Multiplus with the built in GX. It will make your install so much easier. Less (and cheaper) cables you need to buy and set up.

1 hour ago, Racer said:

the model BMS does not have bluetooth or outputs

That is the Daly BMS that they sell. It is a solid BMS, but with no communications. So it cannot talk to the inverter and the inverter has to guess the battery SOC (State Of Charge). It works, but you do get that what the system think the SOC is and what the actual SOC is get out of sync. When this happens there is less of the battery that can be used. So not an issue, but better if they can talk. Then you can use the full potential of the battery. 

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Louisvdw

Many thanks for answering my numerous questions, I have a few more to ask if possible:

The non GX Multiplus with a DIY LifePo4 works for you. The Cerbo GX add-on comes at 5k+, can I avoid buying it or is it a must have for the Raspberry Pi?

Where does your Pi connect to?

As I am not going the Pylontech route, I would not need the VE.Can to Can-Bus BMS cable.

I would actually like to get away with just the Multiplus and the MK3 cable and not have GX at this stage and use the "DIY" LifePo4, will this work?

Bain (Lithium supplies) has a Smart BMS shown below, it looks similar to the one you have in your install photo. Is this the one to buy and does it have an interconnect  to enable using the Raspberry Pi - Venus driver setup to monitor SOC? The Daly BMS seems robust but basic, with no takeoff's.

Does the Smart BMS have voltage adjustments for high/low cell voltages and balance the cells or does it just monitor cell voltage?

Does the Smart BMS have an internal cutoff relay or does the Raspberry Pi talk to the Multiplus to reduce charge rate?

Many thanks

110a 7-16s Li-Ion and LiFePO4 ANT Smart BMS With Bluetooth and LCD110a 7-16s Li-Ion and LiFePO4 ANT Smart BMS With Bluetooth and LCD

 


   

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14 hours ago, Racer said:

Is this the one to buy and does it have an interconnect  to enable using the Raspberry Pi - Venus driver setup to monitor SOC? The Daly BMS seems robust but basic, with no takeoff's.

Does the Smart BMS have voltage adjustments for high/low cell voltages and balance the cells or does it just monitor cell voltage?

Does the Smart BMS have an internal cutoff relay or does the Raspberry Pi talk to the Multiplus to reduce charge rate?

The is an ANT-BMS. It works well. We are working on adding this to my driver. But it does not have that interface yet, although the BMS is capable of serial communications (RS485 with the screen and bluetooth to your phone). This is a good option for a BMS.

14 hours ago, Racer said:

The Cerbo GX add-on comes at 5k+, can I avoid buying it or is it a must have for the Raspberry Pi?

Where does your Pi connect to?

Let me try and explain it another way:

  1. All Victron equipment can work independently, but then you then need to set each one up independently as well. They can even work with other manufacturer's equipment. However if you do not know what you are doing this could potentially give you some headaches.
  2. In the Victron world if you want to interconnect the pieces and let them talk to each other, then you need some kind of GX device. There are many options with the easiest those that are built into the inverters. See the comparison list here.
  3. If you do connect everything, you get more that the sum of the part. This is where their ESS(Energy Storage System) comes from. 
  4. You can also create your own GX device using a Raspberry Pi if you feel more adventurous, but as the Pi does not have all the same inputs as the other GX devices you need to use more expensive cables to make this work. So in the end if you don't already own a Pi (with power supply and case) then you will only save R1500 of the R5000 that a VenusGX or CerboGX cost and mostl likely even less than the built in GX cost.

So my suggestion to make this much less complicated  is to use a build in GX (least complicated) instead of a Raspberry Pi(most complicated).

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@LouisvdwI wish to thank you ever so much for your patience and being prepared to provide useful advice to my query on a Victron inverter and batteries a month or more ago. I also thank other forum members who responded to my request with input.

I finally decided to purchase a 3 Kw MicroCare Inverter from PE and 16 x LifePo4 cells from Lithium Batteries with a Smart BMS. The MicroCare charge/voltage settings used were recommended by Bain of Lithium Batteries. I installed the unit and the battery pack and commissioned it on 2020-10-20. It has worked for a month without problem and the batteries charge back to 100% after use without hassle. I have no interconnect between the inverter and BMS/batteries and all seems well. I attach photo's of the installation fyi. Take care.       

20201026_124803.jpg

20201026_124644.jpg

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Hi Racer. I have just moved to the Midlands (from Knysna, WP). For the past 7 years,  I had a Victron multiplus with 8x 6V Trojan batteries and 2.4 KW solar panels which worked adequately. However, the lead acid batteries (flooded type) were a bit of a pain and it always irritated me that I had to limit the discharge to 60% SOC to protect the battery life which effectively meant paying a premium for a kWh capability that wasn't accessible. Also the configuration of the Victron via a laptop was the only way to program it to switch off the charger (to ensure Solar-first priority) which was a problematic comms challenge - you had to turns things on and off in exactly the right order. 

So, with the opportunity associated with my move to the Midlands,  I have decided to upgrade to two Lithium (PylonTech 2000) batteries. I chose to pair these with a 3kW Growatt inverter and have installed this as a UPS configuration for starters. I will add PV panels when I have bought a house. The BMS comms setup wasn't well described in the inverter instruction manual but I eventually figured it out (contact me on adbyates(at)gmail.com if you decide to go the pylon + GroWatt route for some tips on how to get the system up and running). So far, it seems to be a much more tidy setup with the MPPT integrated into the inverter and the integrated BMS system managing all the charging issues. I am reasonably confident that I will expire before the hardware does.     

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@Andy Y

Hi, nice to hear from you. Good move to the Natal Midlands, nice climate and it is the Garden province. I actually changed direction once I found out more about the modular design of the Victron which required add-ons to get it working properly and the extra expensive cable to connect to the PC. I then decided on a MicroCare unit which has a built in display, is easy to set-up and importantly made in RSA. I went the LifePo4 do it yourself route and followed what others have done, using a smart BMS and it seems to work like a charm so far. I have no PV panels either, but will get some at a future date. I am sure my installation will also see me "till the end of time". Fortunately our estate saw fit to allow roof panels and a number have installed them and are happy with the setups.    

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