KLEVA

@Coulomboops, yes, meant E & N - will edit the post shortly so as not to damage someones life and kit *FacePalm* Regarding the "dry contacts" on the Axpert - for some reason I couldn't get those to work properly, even followed your advice from another forum, but eventually had to give up and go another way. Maybe there was a problem with mine or I didn't follow the advice correctly. So this is the way I went after getting shocked a few times when "islanding"

Agreed, The only reason we use AC is the easier delivery to our homes from a distance. It makes practical sense and less current means smaller wires. The losses during conversion to DC are not insignificant, switching to the DC bus bar saved nearly 300W/hr. Gate and Alarm converters are some of the worst... Take 220VAC, down to 16VAC then a diode bridge to make it near 12VDC, just to charge a battery that will power kit...

@WannabeSolarSparky - Nice job of showing the pros and cons and of course your experiences. We have a Backup Server setup that needs 700W continuous, and that has been my biggest challenge for complete offline - My house is also tiny, so no more space to setup panels - he he. But like you, we have reduced our Municipal demand to 6-10kW/day. Have just replaced my LeadCrystalGel batteries with a LiFePo of 1/2 the Ah size, but it works about the same. I am in a Catch 22 - I can't expand my solar array until there are some bigger improvements in Tech due to space, and expanding the battery bank would mean they could almost never get to 100% SOC in a day. My wife is a professional baker, so an electric stove is critical, but she managed to find a specialised baking convection oven (standalone) that halved the power consumption of a normal stove, and has 1.5 times the capacity (space). That alone reduced nearly 10kW/day of power. We also now use induction plates when we can't or are not willing to damage pots on gas (we use a cheap 2 plate store bought gas stove). Since we camp a lot, we just throw the same gas stove and bottle in the car for our trips - he he. Our solar geyser is off-grid almost all year, think we have used electrical power to heat about 3 times this year due to additional guests. Since we do camping, our kettle is already gas (although we do have an electrical one as well in the kitchen for when wife is impatient). Just wish we could find something better for the vacuum and iron. We have also setup a 12VDC bus bar that runs the length of the house, that we keep on a separate basic 12VDC solar charger connected to a bog standard car battery (90Ah), charged by 2 x 100W panels that go with us when camping (if going for a while then have 2 separate 100W panels and 12VDC charger that can take on the road that we use to keep car batteries alive while we use those for power). Anyway, that 12VDC bus bar charges and runs almost anything I find in the house that can or is running on 12VDC - DSTV Decoder, OpenView Decoder, Alarm System (did have to tell security company to ignore power failure signals), Gate Motor, 12VDC lights in almost every room in the house - Unless reading never have to turn a light on in my house (3-6W LED's in almost every room, just enough to walk around). My fault but I destroyed my batteries this year during the July Floods - We were without Solar and Electricity for days and I pushed them way to hard. Lost 3 out of 8 200Ah permanently and the others were heated badly due to load. I will keep the best for use with our camping setup, but this is the second time in my solar years that Lead/Acid (gel or standard) have let me down even with decent balancers and controllers in place. The first time nearly set fire to my house and completely melted down, this time some of them got so heated and swelled that when I finally got them removed, the label printing from some of them was etched in reverse on another - Eish. Good luck with your progress and I will continue to follow and witness the challenges you overcome Regards KLEVA PS: And thank you for the link to Off-Grid Garage (Andy) - I will watch tonight +++

My old Axpert did not Bond the E & N while "islanding" (no Mains). I used a 5A circuit breaker (to prevent the issues mentioned above by Peter) to connect the OUTPUT side of the Axpert E & N together. This worked, but later added a 220VAC Normal Closed Relay on the Mains side to control the switchover. So when Mains Fails the Relay would de-energise connecting the OUTPUT E & N together - still via the 5A breaker, and would energise when mains came back. Due to Axpert delay in switch-over back to mains it did mean that for a second or two the Earth floated, but it didn't seem to cause any issues. I suppose you could use a simple 12V Car relay to do this, connected to a 12VDC adapter plugged into a plug that only connects to Mains Power, as you are not running current through this and just supposed to provide a bonded voltage. Does my 1st sentence make sense to everyone? PS: I have no idea where to get a 220VAC Normal Closed Relay - Mine was from an obsolete piece of equipment at work that I had to unsolder from a circuit board. Clunky huge thing, wish I had thought of the 12VDC thing back then instead of only think about it while typing this message *FacePalm*

This was in the Classified section, but decided that it would be better served here.... Item: Mecer Axpert Remote Panel, unused with cables and manual Age: 5 years in box, never used Warranty: NIL Packaging: Packaging dusty, but still original Condition: Excellent I suppose except for dust - Never used Location: Pinetown, KZN Reason: No longer have Axpert, it was donated, so no use for it Shipping: Maybe, but will be for your account (it is fairly small & light so shouldn't cost too much) Collection: Pinetown, KZN Contact: 083 5579832 or [email protected] Other: Item has never been used, bought it with my Axpert many years ago. Other than dusty in storage, it has never been opened or plugged in (we never needed it). When we donated our Axpert to a school, we had forgotten it existed - The school has no need for it and have said no thanks (even free). Regards KLEVA

After thinking about this for a bit - Decided that this should be moved to Pay it Forward instead. Please refer to that section of the Forum if you require. Regards Kevin Caine

Your other weird choice (did this myself with a lot of effort, not sure if worth the time for you)... Took a damaged 200Ah 12V battery and stripped it down after 2 cells gone... Was intending to try fix the 2 cells as a project, but the case turned out more important, so sold all the lead and used the cash to buy small Li batteries (used). It is a project but fitted them all into the old casing, and have to use an external charger/battery manager (although with a bit of money extra you could monitor a cell/cell bank). Anyway, I used another battery case to make this possible, you will still need to provide your own BMS system, I am only providing a thought.

Item: 2 x HA02 Battery Balancers Age: 4+ Years Price: R 400 each or Negotiable Payment Method Accepted: EFT or Card (have a YOCO unit) Warranty: NIL Packaging: NIL Condition: They were still working hard when I replaced my batteries. Location: Pinetown, KZN Reason: No longer needed as have changed batteries to LIFePO Shipping: Possible, they are light items but will be for your cost Collection: Pinetown, KZN Other: They have been in use for a while and were working when removed. They have been standing for a few months so I cannot warranty that they are working. If you find them faulty I will refund your purchase price excluding shipping. Contact: 083 557 9832 or [email protected]

Item: Victron BMV702 (and a Victron USB VE Direct cable) Age: 3 years Price: R850 Payment Method Accepted: EFT or Card (Have a YOCO unit) Warranty: NIL Packaging: None Condition: Good, but used. Definitely operational. Location: Pinetown, KZN Reason: New LiFePO has built in BMS and a BMV702 connections don't allow for a midpoint, and the fuse connection doesn't fit. It will stand discarded. Shipping: At your cost, but it is a light item so shouldn't be expensive. Collection: Pinetown, KZN Other: When I was using Lead Acid / Lead Crystal batteries this device was a great early warning device and also made sure that I can see at a glance the Voltage of my batteries and possible problems. Contact: 083 557 9832 or [email protected]

Item: Mecer Axpert Remote Panel, unused with cables and manual Age: 5 years in box, never used Price: Please make offer, I have no idea what it cost or what it is currently worth Payment Method Accepted: EFT or Charge Card (have a YOCO unit) Warranty: NIL Packaging: Packaging dusty, but still original Condition: Excellent I suppose except for dust - Never used Location: Pinetown, KZN Reason: No longer have Axpert, it was donated, so no use for it Shipping: Maybe, but will be for purchasers account (it is fairly small & light so shouldn't cost too much) Collection: Pinetown, KZN Contact: 083 5579832 or [email protected] Other: Item has never been used, bought it with my Axpert many years ago. Other than dusty in storage, it has never been opened or plugged in (we never needed it). When we donated our Axpert to a school, we had forgotten it existed - The school has no need for it and have said no thanks (even free). We would like to take the small amount we get for this (at best offer) and give it to the school instead - something that they can use. Regards KLEVA

Hi. Interested but would need to negotiate due to budget constraints. Can do R30k for 2 of them or wait 3 months and can do R35k for 2. Unfortunately that is my max budget. I know this is below what you are looking for, but contact me and maybe there is a plan to be made. If interested can contact me on [email protected]

Thanks, have sent mail.

Did my own many years ago with a small plant. Ran in a Nissan Sani... Making your own is a lot of work and a bit tricky, so eventually started using a cheap provider to get rid of the workload and the waste product that wasn't as easy to get rid of as expected... There is only so much soap you can make and sell at markets! The good was that is worked out quite cheap to run a hungry Nissan 4x4 with 80l tanks, but the bad was that if it wasn't perfect, then it would fail in low temperature environments (Winter in the Drakensberg). Even running a mix was not a match for freezing temperatures. Note this was only because it wasn't 100% correct and almost handmade, it also performed great in Durban where temps almost NEVER get below 4 degrees. It was good fun, and saved a few bucks, but eventually realised that would save more money making my own beer - he he. Also investigated Butanol for Petrol replacement - Absolutely perfect replacement, but in SA the cost exceeds Petrol price since all made by Sasol from petroleum sources instead of Bio sources. A 1988 VW Passat was an awesome test vehicle and could not only keep up, but beat many modern cars (admittedly the hardcore conversions were made before switching to Butanol). But being able to race a 2009 BMW 325 and beat them in a 1988 Passat, was definitely awesome. There is no power advantage with Butanol, it almost behaves the same (depending on the vehicle and timing it may have a slightly lower bottom end torque or a slightly higher top end speed, the same as adjusting timing/mix on any other car). Now that I have ranted, my suggestion for BioDiesel is to find a reputable supplier rather than buying the expensive equipment. You will get the fuel cheaper but without the headaches. Quality BioDiesel definitely works and is economical, but your l/100km will be about the same.

I keep getting shot down about new solar installations not thinking about water heating first, but even if you trash your water heating system later it is the most economical start (IMO). Even if you only solar heat one of them and pay a plumber to change some pipes, the geyser heating should be the first to go. And despite many arguing against due to other methods, it is far cheaper than installing an Electrical conversion system (heat pumps etc) to cover that from day 1. Once you get a large solar installation, then by all means change your approach, but solar heating tubes work with almost minimal maintenance and breakdown, Like every installation each is different and unique. In my case Gas wasn't an option for ovens and stoves due to my wife's business. It would take a very expensive Gas stove to maintain exact temperatures she needed. But gas is a valid alternative if you consider the Gas litres and cost vs your electricity cost. In my personal case the costs were too close to justify the capital expense, so we run the baking oven with Solar Electricity (just can only run the Stove/Oven with no other heating element at the same time due to Invertor limitations, but that is family education). Government electricity bill, with Solar (Electricity & Water) dropped from R3000/mth in 2015, to current of R600/mth. Despite increases in charges and doing a lot to reduce consumption in lights, education, a few heaters using gas instead +++. It is just learning.

Hi All I am in the market for some replacement batteries for my Lead Crystal current. LiFePO is supported by my Imeon 3.6, so thought I would start there. Item Wanted: LiFePO batteries, 48VDC, anywhere between 4.8kWh to 20kWh (9.6 is optimal) Packaging Essential: No, and second hand with up to 2000 cycles might be considered Desired Age: As above, but must be 3 years or under Location: Pinetown, KZN Willing to accept a shipped item: Yes Ballpark/Budget Amount: Dependant on item available, but between R10k to R15k per 4.8kWh (max budget is R30k)

Hi Eric, missed this by a few hours. If situation changes let me know. Thanks.

So many of you have missed the initial point of this post - It is about where to start, and has nothing to do with an existing installation at all.

But Piet, that isn't what the post was about at all. If you already have solar electricity, then the initial post has nothing to do with you. The initial post was about what to START with, especially on a budget.

How so? I only compared cost/bang for buck... You can't still seriously think that a 3kW solar electricity installation just to heat a geyser is a better price alternative. My original post was about where to start saving money. If you can afford a full solar electrical installation for your home then none of this post applies.

1. I have both Solar Electrical and Solar Heating, so I don't think I am biased, just practical. 2. All these cost analysis above make a lot of assumptions, and in some cases are just wrong 2a. @Scorp007 - R20k for an invertor, batteries and panels? Then wiring it dedicated to a Geyser? Your costing is way off and an additional cost for a heat pump? 2b. @Pietpower - Please explain in more detail how you are going to supply a 3kW geyser element for only R14k? Panels yes, but the invertor and batteries would need to be upgraded to supply 3kW (13A of AC or +- 60A of DC) without killing your batteries. 2c. @PowerUser - I am not trolling at all, a full installation of evacuated tubes + solar geyser + geyserwise is about R20-30k, give or take depending on size. An equivilent 3kW of panels (Cheap from ArtSolar @ 350W - 9 x R1580), a decent invertor (Lets say Goodwe for 3000W - R16k+), batteries to supply 60+ Amps without getting killed in a few weeks (at least 8 x 200Ah @ R4-5k each). This is only to supply a 3kW geyser element. Also consider the roof space needed for 9 panels vs the space need for 18 tubes. I only have enough roof space for 15 panels max, so would rather use that for electricity. 2d. @Leshen - I don't think I missed the point at all. You mentioned the R250k figure in your post. Which is far higher than a R20-30k solar geyser install. Read 2c above. 3. I can't see how this has become such a touchy/hot (pun intended) topic. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that a Solar geyser is practical and far less expensive than using Solar Electricity to heat a geyser. In fact I am wondering if you guys aren't trolling me. 4. @Bobster - Yes, a blow-off pressure valve exists on any geyser install. It is rare for a geyser to get to 80+ degrees, but that can happen whether attached to electricity or solar heating. During summer I remove a few tubes (I have far too many for a small geyser), but a 12 tube system for a 150-200l geyser should never get above 65, the extra heat dissipates quickly. 5. As ugly as the unit is, a GeyserWise is a must. As mentioned by others above, it does a lot more than just show the geyser temperature. A lot of "thermosyphon" systems have to be placed very specific to ensure water temperature is transferred. With a pump controlled by the GeyserWise you are able to place your tubes/flat panels anywhere to take advantage of the sunlight available.

Ok, last post (ummmm, maybe) on this... Think about the space needed on your roof to install 3kW+ of solar panels just to heat a single geyser? Not everybody has that kind of space available to them, even if they can afford a invertor and batteries large enough. The cost/space/maintenance of converting Solar Electricity to Geyser Heat just doesn't justify the same issue when compared to Solar Heating. I could go on about efficiency and many things, but practicality (and finances) will keep proving that this should be a first step for anyone starting on their trip into Solar power.

Utility I can 100% get behind, but as mentioned above, there are very few Solar Electrical systems that can/should directly connect a Geyser. So your "hot" shower would have definately been cold. If you had a Solar Electrical system large enough to power a 3kW or bigger geyser, then of course you have power for the rest of your home, but at what cost? Probably way out the range of someone just looking to start, or with a R100k or less budget? PS: I am not interested in supporting a Utility that, during a crisis, could only provide me with basic power for 8 of 60 days during these floods, and SARS??? No, I won't turn this into a political discussion... Lets just discuss Solar Power, it calms me

Just joking (maybe?): A thermoelectric system could provide you power based on heat transferance... Just need the right equipment (where? I have no idea!) Not Joking: Also, "essential"??? Think people have forgotten what essential means... Lights maybe, but those other things are NOT essential, water and boiled drinkable, washable water are. Remember KZN has just gone through nearly 2 months of devastation... People weren't asking for WiFi or DSTV, just water, hot water, and lights. Trust me, in chaos, it proves your essentials.

I can't find the post that mentioned a failed GeyserWise battery and pump damaging insulation, but here is my response: Failed systems happen, even with Solar Electrical, so a failed battery or pump on a Solar water system can happen... But so can a failed invertor or damaged batteries (both of which are far more expensive to replace). I know not practical for everyone, but I run a 12VDC central line through my home, which feeds ANYTHING that can take a 12VDC input (like DSTV decoders, Alarm, Gate Motors, etc). My GeyserWise pump is attached to that. But you can also get 220VAC pumps for a GeyserWise, it is just a relay after all. One oddity and weird positive (since I live near Durban) is that if the temperature outside (at the tubes) drops to below 3 Celcius, the GeyserWise will pump water back to the tubes to prevent freezing of pipes. Pump failures are uncommon if a decent pump installed, I didn't even get an expensive one. Battery failure is common, but like solar electrical there are ways to mitigate this... Originally (before my central 12V line), I had a 50W solar panel on the roof with a cheap Ellies battery charger that maintained the little 14Ah 12VDC battery attached to the GeyserWise. General Maintenance on any system with batteries needs to be observed, we do it with our cars already to ensure a standing car doesn't go flat, we just need to change our mindset and do that with any system that has a battery attached.

Yes, bad placement is a problem, but a plumber could resolve by moving to another spot to optimise roof space and sunlight for the panel install. Unless you have a decent high power invertor/batteries++, you wouldn't connect a geyser to your solar electrical installation due to the high draw, so solar electricity won't heat your water. A solar water installation takes much less space and much lower cost than the equivalent solar electrical system.