We have two tenants here that I found out are backfeeding electricity using generators during loadshedding.

I'm no electrician, but I think this is illegal?  I did send out a complex wide notice to advise as such.

Is this very dangerous?  What steps can be taken to prohibit this?  Any advice?  I feel bad for them, they gave the "what else can we do?" excuse..

Thanks

Edited September 20, 20223 yr by bloupotlood

Well @bloupotlood , amongst other  complications , they run the risk of blowing up their alternator big time (fire and all)  , if that grid comes back and the free-running gen is   heavily out of phase , then its  even worst than a dead short , by an order of magnitude .  So advise them , and protect them against themselves .

15 minutes ago, bloupotlood said:

We have two tenants here that I found out are backfeeding electricity using generators during loadshedding.

I'm no electrician, but I think this is illegal?  I did send out a complex wide notice to advise as such.

Is this very dangerous?  What steps can be taken to prohibit this?  Any advice?  I feel bad for them, they gave the "what else can we do?" excuse..

Thanks

Not sure it's a easy answer. Depending on the size of the complex and generator. A tenant will only be able to supply power to the size of the generator. The power cannot be supplied say to the whole suburb connected to the specific phase as the generator will be overloaded.

The quality of supply could be very bad and others in the complex might get equipment damaged.

A lot more info is needed like is there a mini sub with higher than 400V secondary winding.

Is there someone that isolates the main grid incomer circuit breaker to limit the load on the generator.

Also strange to hear that 2 generators are feeding back. To work well they normally need to be in synch.

45 minutes ago, bloupotlood said:

We have two tenants here that I found out are backfeeding electricity using generators during loadshedding.

When you say back-feeding, I suspect you mean back to a neighbor with his willing and eager consent. There is no way they can back-feed to the entire complex with all the MCB's still active. As others have said, this will cause great fireworks when Eskom restores.

What I've heard people do is make up an extension chord with two "16A Plugs", they plug the one side in the generator side plug point, and the other side thrown over the neighbors wall. The receiving (eager) neighbor makes sure his MCB is OFF, and plugs the other end into an open plug, and "hey presto" the house is powered again.

This does work if loads are maintained withing 20A circuit breaker limits, and the generator, BUT there is NO EL protection for the receiving neighbor, and he will have to trust that his "supplier's" EL is working. Your life, your choice, this is the burden of freedom. 🤔

43 minutes ago, Scorp007 said:

Not sure it's a easy answer. Depending on the size of the complex and generator. A tenant will only be able to supply power to the size of the generator. The power cannot be supplied say to the whole suburb connected to the specific phase as the generator will be overloaded.

The quality of supply could be very bad and others in the complex might get equipment damaged.

A lot more info is needed like is there a mini sub with higher than 400V secondary winding.

Is there someone that isolates the main grid incomer circuit breaker to limit the load on the generator.

Also strange to hear that 2 generators are feeding back. To work well they normally need to be in synch.

No, it's two different tenants using old generators and running them into wall sockets, via suicide cords I presume, these people are not very knowledgable about electricity and neither am I.

What's the best way forward?  Should I have them get electricians to install automatic transfer switches?

If you are in a complex, legalities can get out of hand quickly if something goes wrong and someone is electrocuted. If you are in the "bush / farmlands" legalities are a lot more lax, and almost anything is possible.

If you are responsible for the complex, you are in an awkward  position.

https://www.sunburstelectric.co.za/everything-you-need-to-know-about-generator-compliance/

 

 

7 minutes ago, TimCam said:

If you are in a complex, legalities can get out of hand quickly if something goes wrong and someone is electrocuted. If you are in the "bush / farmlands" legalities are a lot more lax, and almost anything is possible.

If you are responsible for the complex, you are in an awkward  position.

https://www.sunburstelectric.co.za/everything-you-need-to-know-about-generator-compliance/

 

 

Yep, the one gentleman tenant came at me with "but I ran the generator into the plugs on the farm all the time."

This is a nightmare.  Is there a way I can fortify my unit against stuff like this?  I don't want to lose all my devices thanks to some dumb yokel's 20 year old generator blowing up.

Edited September 20, 20223 yr by bloupotlood

@bloupotlood I feel your pain, sorry man.😓  I am one who will always side on freedom of choice above ridiculous regulations, but with a complex, the responsible parties will always be held accountable if something goes wrong, and court action is initiated. If the "farmer" electrocutes and kills his neighbors child, he will use all the regulations to save  himself and throw you under the bus.

I suggest you call a general meeting with all tenants, and print out the article in the link above, with special attention to point 4 and their extension chord usage.

May you have a successful and happy conclusion to this problem.

 

40 minutes ago, bloupotlood said:

This is a nightmare.  Is there a way I can fortify my unit against stuff like this?  I don't want to lose all my devices thanks to some dumb yokel's 20 year old generator blowing up.

Install these two devices, they will protect from load-shedding spikes, lightning induced spikes and noise from other users bad air-cons, etc.

 

AC SPD 2P House Surge Protector protection Protective Low-voltage Arrester Device

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002580754965.html

 

TOMZN VPD1 40A 60A 220V reconnect over and under voltage protection protective device relay with Voltmeter voltage monitor

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32812955391.html

Source these or similar devices locally, or if buying from Aliexpress, choose Fedex IP as shipping method.

I would think the guy must be switching of his mains breaker and only feed his own apartment. Without it he cannot feed a number of apartments due to the power that a few units will use and a overload on the genny.

A very difficult one as he can say he is just using an extension to loads and not the whole apartment. Policing not easy.

Just very broadly speaking. From a trustee's perspective, I wouldn't leave it at discussions and meetings and pleading with people. I understand that people want loadshedding solutions, but then there should rather be formal complex rules according to which generators and inverters may be connected, in line with legal standards.

Something perhaps like this: Dunkirk Estate Generator Policy.pdf, just as an example, but the managing agents should be able to devise a policy suited to your complex, or find a suitable up-to-date template.

I would emphasize that solution for connecting that does not comply with legal standards are not allowed to connect to the grid, everything must be installed by qualified personnel, must be requested and approved before installation, and at the same time you should probably check the changes in insurance costs and insurance requirements. Any liability for damages caused that do not comply with the policy must be clearly stated to be for the liability of the person who disregarded the rules.

Bottom line, don't leave yourself open to liability stemming from cowboys doing it the way they used to on the farm.

 

21 minutes ago, GreenFields said:

Just very broadly speaking. From a trustee's perspective, I wouldn't leave it at discussions and meetings and pleading with people. I understand that people want loadshedding solutions, but then there should rather be formal complex rules according to which generators and inverters may be connected, in line with legal standards.

Something perhaps like this: Dunkirk Estate Generator Policy.pdf, just as an example, but the managing agents should be able to devise a policy suited to your complex, or find a suitable up-to-date template.

I would emphasize that solution for connecting that does not comply with legal standards are not allowed to connect to the grid, everything must be installed by qualified personnel, must be requested and approved before installation, and at the same time you should probably check the changes in insurance costs and insurance requirements. Any liability for damages caused that do not comply with the policy must be clearly stated to be for the liability of the person who disregarded the rules.

Bottom line, don't leave yourself open to liability stemming from cowboys doing it the way they used to on the farm.

 

Thanks everyone, I advised in writing they have all till the 28th this month to present a valid COC (Everything on their cost) or get rid of any and all generators.  It's just not worth the liability and risk.

Be very careful with your letter to demand n COC. If I run A extension cord to an specific standing light and appliances and don't connect it to a wall socket there is nothing wrong with the installation seeing that it is seen as a temporary install and doesn't fall under any COC.