Hi Members, warm greetings.

I have explored solar panels and the mppt controller option to help generate electricity but the cost does not seem feasible and it is not really DIY friendly.

I am therfore exploring the Flat Plate Collector option. I want to DIY as much as possible. I dont really want to move the geyser to the roof even though I have a Kwikot Dual High Pressure which is suitable since that would involve lots of plumbing and I won't be able to DIY ( it needs to make financial sense so any option over R10 000 wont be feasible ) . Our bill is only around R1200 a month so this project is more about just doing something for fun and as long as I make up the cost after a few years im happy )

The question is : Do I really need a pump to send the water from inside the roof to the top of the roof ( inlet of collector is in the bottom I believe ). I dont like the idea of a pump as it sounds like a failure point and even if it lasts 2 years for example it will mean I will never recover my money if I keep changing pumps.

I can easily get a cold water feed to the bottom of the collector plate. I will postion the plate on the roof directly above the geyser ( geyser is in roof ofcourse, not on ontop ). I will make a hole through the roof for the outlet of the collector pipe on top to feed back into the inlet of they geyser. Will the physics work without the pump ? I will get a plumber to come and check my work afterwards and to install the correct valves on the geyser etc but I want to do as much as I can myself.

Initially my plan was to get atleast 3 X 550 watt panels, the MPPT controller, change to a dual geyser element etc but the amount of stuff required and cost does not sound feasible but. I dont want to go over R10k simply for heating water since I dnt spend a whole lot on electricity but I really want to have some sort of renewalble option that is feasible. Maybe once the bug bites I will look at spending more. DIY is important to me as it is my passion and cost ofcourse. Thank you, any advice most welcomed as I know I still got a whole lot to learn as I have not implemented anything yet.

Edited May 20May 20 by Lucang

Some considerations just based on personal experience.
My first solar path started with a flat plate solar collector. Installation was done with the pump and Geyserwise controller. You need the pump. That flat panel only has a volume of around 1 to 2 litres of water. Once the differential temp between panel and geyser reaches the differential as set then pump circulates the water from the geyser into the panel and the hotter water in the panel goes back into the geyser. Works wonders in summer but winters have been mediocre. It works, but it's a compromise. Had to get a new pump twice in the 5 years I had it.
The Panel had a 5 year guarantee. At 5 years and 2 months it started leaking internally. This thing has no user serviceable parts except for the electronic temp probe which feeds the Geyserwise controller. Suffice to say it was out of guarantee and @SolarGuru advised I need to buy a new one.
Since that flat plate conversion in 2017, I have expanded to a full PV off grid system with enough energy to power the Geyser element via AC. Much more efficient and quicker in heating the water.
After the disappointing flat plate lifetime I regard is a bad investment and it's now just an ornament on the roof. The Geyserwise controller at least still provides me with the temp data and ability to set the timer for the heating periods.
A friend of mine had a PV to Geyser direct installation done. He will send me the photo of the box later on. That sounds like a basic Inverter which selects between grid or Solar. He is running 6 X 250W panels which give him about 180-200VDC which then heat the element directly. I don't know the cost of that "Inverter" box but he paid around R7500 for the full electrical installation with that box, but had to supply his own panels.
I'll post more info for that "inverter" box once I get it and also the details of the Installer that may be able to provide you with further info.

@zsde Thank you so much. I am actually going to delete my question now as you have answered it so wonderfully and efficiently by adressing the feasibility concern as well as the pitfalls of the collector plate. It is amazing how your respond adressed my concerns. Atleast now I got closure and will go back to the drawing board ( which is the SOLAR PV option and the controller etc, basically the option your friend has ) . I need to look into that option again, the feasibility part is key, if I save for example R150 a month it will take forever to make up the money. I dont mind if it takes more then 5 years, I would have had fun installing it but I also need to be sensible as it is a pretty big project to undertake especially for someone like my with no experience in any of this plus I am also not willing to work on top of the roof myself so I would need to get labourers from the street and guide them. I guess I will be stressing myself out for nothing but I still want to have some sort of solar option, been a dream of mine for a few years now. If you can send me a pic of what he has that would be great. I know what option you talking about and I have been pricing those inverters but they also seem to require alot of 'stuff' and that adds to the cost/complexity but I am comfy at R10k and a 5 year ROI

1 hour ago, Lucang said:

@zsde Thank you so much. I am actually going to delete my question now as you have answered it so wonderfully and efficiently by adressing the feasibility concern as well as the pitfalls of the collector plate. It is amazing how your respond adressed my concerns. Atleast now I got closure and will go back to the drawing board ( which is the SOLAR PV option and the controller etc, basically the option your friend has ) . I need to look into that option again, the feasibility part is key, if I save for example R150 a month it will take forever to make up the money. I dont mind if it takes more then 5 years, I would have had fun installing it but I also need to be sensible as it is a pretty big project to undertake especially for someone like my with no experience in any of this plus I am also not willing to work on top of the roof myself so I would need to get labourers from the street and guide them. I guess I will be stressing myself out for nothing but I still want to have some sort of solar option, been a dream of mine for a few years now. If you can send me a pic of what he has that would be great. I know what option you talking about and I have been pricing those inverters but they also seem to require alot of 'stuff' and that adds to the cost/complexity but I am comfy at R10k and a 5 year ROI

Please don't delete the question, you never know if maybe someone else comes looking for the same answers in the future.

I want to say, though, that not everyone necessarily has the same experience. I've had my flat plate split system now for nigh on 10 years, and my pump has never given in. The panel itself has had a 10-year warranty, so maybe I should start expecting hassles soon, but so far it's been plain sailing. The only gripe is that it is not as effective in Winter as in summer, but it still helps by reducing the amount of top-up heating needed.

1 hour ago, GreenFields said:

I want to say, though, that not everyone necessarily has the same experience.

As said, I only stated my experience which was not up to expectations unfortunately. Others may have had different mileage. In hindsight I regret not paying the extra and getting an evacuated tube panel rather than the flat panel.

Anyhow @Lucang the unit my friend had installed is this one https://www.pi2r.co.za/product-page/pi2r-micro and https://www.telemetric.co.za/micro.html which is fed in his case by 6 X 250W panels which he actually bought second hand from someone that was upgrading panels.
This unit targets 90-200VDC. Thus if you were to get lets say typical 3 X 550W panels that currently go for around R1600, then you are looking at R4800 for the panels, and in series around 150V, right in the ballpark.
He also added a timer on his DB to set time windows when he allows the Grid to heat the element. He mostly has the Geyser Grid fed CB switched off and actually switches it on manually on the occasions of low solar input.
His installer was a Leon Erlank. If you want you can contact him to see how much info he is prepared to give you for a DIY job. 081 024 1683

Edited May 20May 20 by zsde

@zsde Thank you very much. This option looks very easy actually, I can easily DIY this and get the Compliance Certificate sorted. I already have a timer as well. Thanks again, Im going to shop around for panels etc. I still need to work out feasibility but atleast I can have some sort or solar even if it takes 5 years to make up the 10k cost of this atleast it is not a waste and I can be proud of it. Nothing can really break that easily with a simple set up like this.

5 hours ago, Lucang said:

@zsde Thank you very much. This option looks very easy actually, I can easily DIY this and get the Compliance Certificate sorted. I already have a timer as well. Thanks again, Im going to shop around for panels etc. I still need to work out feasibility but atleast I can have some sort or solar even if it takes 5 years to make up the 10k cost of this atleast it is not a waste and I can be proud of it. Nothing can really break that easily with a simple set up like this.

Just a word on pumps. These feed pumps use on heat pumps can easily give a 8-10 year life. One must just ensure a strainer is used to prevent grid entering the unit.

5 hours ago, Lucang said:

@zsde Thank you very much.

6 hours ago, Lucang said:

This option looks very easy actually,

You might want to have a look at the Elon Smart system from Kwikot . Below link for the system setup. I have installed a few and the work great. 3 x 550w panels in series will work quite well.

Edited May 20May 20 by TaliaB

43 minutes ago, Scorp007 said:

One must just ensure a strainer is used to prevent grid entering the unit.

As said, I had two failures in 5 years and the pumps only have a 1 year warranty.
All of them had strainers and there was no evidence of dirt. The last pump I now have worked well until the panel became an ornament. This pump actually has a brass housing.

14 hours ago, zsde said:

As said, I had two failures in 5 years and the pumps only have a 1 year warranty.
All of them had strainers and there was no evidence of dirt. The last pump I now have worked well until the panel became an ornament. This pump actually has a brass housing.

The pump I have in the heat pump lasted 7 yrs without a strainer. It then failed. The one in use now is running for 8+yrs.

Yes mine also has the brass housing.

16 hours ago, TaliaB said:

You might want to have a look at the Elon Smart system from Kwikot . Below link for the system setup. I have installed a few and the work great. 3 x 550w panels in series will work quite well.

Hi

I am also looking into this system PV Controller option

I have DIY'd a few geysers on flat plates in Limpopo( Flat roof). Out of 3 installs 1 glass broke due to what looked like a stone ( Maybe Kids) . still worked well Polokwane has enough heat 2nd started leaking internally after about 5years use . evacuated tubes are more efficient especially colder more cloudy areas CPT JHB. Flat plates are good enough for limpopo. Summer sees almost no element usage and winter just a topup here and there( Tenants ) . After 6 years 2 heatteach geysers started leaking maybe my fault as i removed the anode after about 2 years . the spare geyser i had ( The first installed geyser) Builders was just electric about 2 years then flatplat went on . Changed the element gasket 1nc. then worked another 3 years . since took it off as government installed a plasma solar geyser. I used this geyser after 1 heatteach started leaking. still working and is maybe 10years old from new.

Flat plates I bought ( AT Auction) 5 for like 1000 4 builders flat plates and 1 longer 1 all practically new but used .So cheap . even on FB market.

I have a tiled roof with geyser in the roof ( Main house)

So I tried getting some1 with a COC to install a retro fit for me . using my flat plate. All were busy insurance jobs new installs etc . 1 guy wanted me to buy a new tube collector a second hand 1 he had , but i could not meet the guy and he wanted a deposit . so he sounded like a scammer. so that didn't work out .

On the other other hand retro fitting on a tiled roof . geez. Circulation pumps extra pipes fittings , controllers small solar panel , battery etc etc . Is alot of items that can go wrong. then there is the element of leaking due to pipes running through the tiles or pipes leaking in the roof.

I am now looking into the elon smart or the PI2R MICRO as they are the cheapest . and also less moving parts .

So same as OP

I want to look around for second hand panels but 500watts is still pricey on the second hand market at say 1200 1300 maybe . so 3900 plus elon 3800 or PI2R 3300.

Then panel brackets and consumables plus labor ?

So Talia B How much does it cost for the material all in including controller and Panels New.

Elon ranges from 9000 CPT to 11500 JHB with panels new but excludes consumables and labour.

So still an expensive exercise.

I ask cos it will help the OP and Myself and any other people interested in this system to know the full extend of the costs involved.

Cheers

11 minutes ago, rourke said:

Hi

I am also looking into this system PV Controller option

I have DIY'd a few geysers on flat plates in Limpopo( Flat roof). Out of 3 installs 1 glass broke due to what looked like a stone ( Maybe Kids) . still worked well Polokwane has enough heat 2nd started leaking internally after about 5years use . evacuated tubes are more efficient especially colder more cloudy areas CPT JHB. Flat plates are good enough for limpopo. Summer sees almost no element usage and winter just a topup here and there( Tenants ) . After 6 years 2 heatteach geysers started leaking maybe my fault as i removed the anode after about 2 years . the spare geyser i had ( The first installed geyser) Builders was just electric about 2 years then flatplat went on . Changed the element gasket 1nc. then worked another 3 years . since took it off as government installed a plasma solar geyser. I used this geyser after 1 heatteach started leaking. still working and is maybe 10years old from new.

Flat plates I bought ( AT Auction) 5 for like 1000 4 builders flat plates and 1 longer 1 all practically new but used .So cheap . even on FB market.

I have a tiled roof with geyser in the roof ( Main house)

So I tried getting some1 with a COC to install a retro fit for me . using my flat plate. All were busy insurance jobs new installs etc . 1 guy wanted me to buy a new tube collector a second hand 1 he had , but i could not meet the guy and he wanted a deposit . so he sounded like a scammer. so that didn't work out .

On the other other hand retro fitting on a tiled roof . geez. Circulation pumps extra pipes fittings , controllers small solar panel , battery etc etc . Is alot of items that can go wrong. then there is the element of leaking due to pipes running through the tiles or pipes leaking in the roof.

I am now looking into the elon smart or the PI2R MICRO as they are the cheapest . and also less moving parts .

So same as OP

I want to look around for second hand panels but 500watts is still pricey on the second hand market at say 1200 1300 maybe . so 3900 plus elon 3800 or PI2R 3300.

Then panel brackets and consumables plus labor ?

So Talia B How much does it cost for the material all in including controller and Panels New.

Elon ranges from 9000 CPT to 11500 JHB with panels new but excludes consumables and labour.

So still an expensive exercise.

I ask cos it will help the OP and Myself and any other people interested in this system to know the full extend of the costs involved.

Cheers

@rourke There seem to be only 2 MPPT controllers ( both around R3500 ) The Elon Smart and then Pi2RC ). Both are more or less the same, DIY friendly and very easy ( apart from getting on the roof and the COC part that I guess needs to be done to avoid insurance issues but that you can pay someone around R1000 afterwards to sign off ) . Solar Panels are around R1400 minimum and you need 3. Then there are brackets ( I estimate it to be atleast R600 ) and some wiring which is atleast R200 and lastly a fusebox for the panels which is a must (around R800 ) . This project is minimum R11k. My next concern is how long will it take to recover this. I estimate that this will save about 4 to 5 units per day of electricity in my casse, lets say 4, that is R13.50 on a good day so lets avg it out to R7.5 per day due to winter etc. That is 4 years if all else is equal. I am therefore also thinking of a grid invertor but I have a feeling if I do the math it will take even longer to break even and once you add batteries to the equation and expensive inverters something will definitely require replacing along the line. Tough decision to make if you look at it purely from a financial point of view like I do ( I work in Finance so it needs to make sense to me as well since loadshedding is no longer a factor )

36 minutes ago, Lucang said:

@rourke There seem to be only 2 MPPT controllers ( both around R3500 ) The Elon Smart and then Pi2RC ). Both are more or less the same, DIY friendly and very easy ( apart from getting on the roof and the COC part that I guess needs to be done to avoid insurance issues but that you can pay someone around R1000 afterwards to sign off ) . Solar Panels are around R1400 minimum and you need 3. Then there are brackets ( I estimate it to be atleast R600 ) and some wiring which is atleast R200 and lastly a fusebox for the panels which is a must (around R800 ) . This project is minimum R11k. My next concern is how long will it take to recover this. I estimate that this will save about 4 to 5 units per day of electricity in my casse, lets say 4, that is R13.50 on a good day so lets avg it out to R7.5 per day due to winter etc. That is 4 years if all else is equal. I am therefore also thinking of a grid invertor but I have a feeling if I do the math it will take even longer to break even and once you add batteries to the equation and expensive inverters something will definitely require replacing along the line. Tough decision to make if you look at it purely from a financial point of view like I do ( I work in Finance so it needs to make sense to me as well since loadshedding is no longer a factor )

I am also in finances

So for me its ROI , but also lots of other factors . I have tenants as well.

Mostly 2 females and 2 kids use the main geyser plus 1 tenant female outside of the house is connected. So the geyser stays on 24/7.

My wife has a pool ( Swim school) and I still feel the pressure as its 1 year old with a heat pump . U can imagine the winter costs on electricity i am sitting with.

1200 1400 units a month

I am sorry to say but eskom and its government cronies steeling and looting does not give any confidence. And prices will just go up .

If i can start going the solar route i will start somewhere at least .

I have started a thread on another forum and have gotten a lot of advise and i learned a few things.

I just want to reduce my monthly spending and being reliant on eskom .

So yes I can also go grid tied inverter maybe say 5kw or 6kw and put the geyser on there ( Grid tied means it does not take a battery ) So even if in future u want to put a battery u have to sell your inverter or use it as a MPPT only . This will be abit more expensive

Any solar inverter journey will be more expensive than the geyser controller cos for the price the 3kw inverters fit the bill but then might not be good for the geyser. and these are normally what they call off grid meaning it has to use a battery so batteries are much more expensive as well.

So i am still thinking

But i was planning since geyser pulls the biggest draw let me start with that .

Maybe later get a 5k or 6kw for the main house and run the heat pump and pool as well.

Will see how it goes .

cheers

52 minutes ago, rourke said:

If i can start going the solar route i will start somewhere at least

This is true, but many people have burnt their fingers by not planning properly, and thus buying things that won't work properly when they later "upgrade" to a full solar system... Consider the following:

You buy PV panels first, just for the geyser, but in 3-4 years time the technology has moved on, and you're left with panels that don't match the new system (Voltage and current limitations, etc...) Or, you start with only 1 batters, "I will add more in future"... When Future arrives, the battery technology as also changed, and you're left with the option to just carry on with the one battery, or to junk it (wasted money...) and buy the multiple new ones...

My advice is to bite the bullet and install a complete system from the start - then your ROI is covered by savings on ALL your electricity, not just the geyser. It is a long-term investment, but as you financial types always tell us, it's time IN the market...

1 hour ago, rourke said:

eskom and its government cronies steeling and looting does not give any confidence.

My current solar installation had one prime reason only. Independence, i.e. not to have to rely on a government service that may or may not work. Even if the costs of the system and maintenance over a 10 year period happens to end up to cost the same as what I would have paid Eskom, having uninterrupted supply is a blessing.
Of course their kWh prices will inflate every year, thus the longer my system is in use, the bigger the saving becomes.
The capital outlay is not cheap, but it's a lot cheaper than the new shiny 4 X 4 that is not really needed.

4 hours ago, zsde said:

Even if the costs of the system and maintenance over a 10 year period happens to end up to cost the same as what I would have paid Eskom, having uninterrupted supply is a blessing.
Of course their kWh prices will inflate every year, thus the longer my system is in use, the bigger the saving becomes.
The capital outlay is not cheap, but it's a lot cheaper than the new shiny 4 X 4 that is not really needed.

Exactly - I fully agree. I am currently standing at 29% return on my original investment after 1.66 years - so even without taking future increased cost into account I would have recovered my investment in less than 6 years (or a return of about 17.5% per year, tax free...

14 hours ago, HennieL said:

This is true, but many people have burnt their fingers by not planning properly, and thus buying things that won't work properly when they later "upgrade" to a full solar system... Consider the following:

You buy PV panels first, just for the geyser, but in 3-4 years time the technology has moved on, and you're left with panels that don't match the new system (Voltage and current limitations, etc...) Or, you start with only 1 batters, "I will add more in future"... When Future arrives, the battery technology as also changed, and you're left with the option to just carry on with the one battery, or to junk it (wasted money...) and buy the multiple new ones...

My advice is to bite the bullet and install a complete system from the start - then your ROI is covered by savings on ALL your electricity, not just the geyser. It is a long-term investment, but as you financial types always tell us, it's time IN the market...

Hennie

I agree with you but taking into account the geyser peak pull is 3KW that is more than half of a 5KW inverter .

Look i Love DIY but Electricity I don't play around with plus these solar equipment can be sensitive so can't play around with it if you don't know. So a pro must install. I have an electrician with COC and he says he done some installs . Will check it out . but here is my issue.

1) Money . A start is a start . I'm not rolling in it and money takes time to build up . so geyser start is something then will go on to the next . I do have a flat roof with space and the main house roof ( The house sits facing east if we take it as the front so the top ridge of the roof is facing about north north west ) So i don't know how efficient it will be unless 2 strings on either side . IF the geyser system with the panels last 10 15years its ok in my book .

2) Peak KW draw . Depending on which system I go for it the inverter can range from anywhere near 7000 to 35000 for a 5KW inverter . So geyser alone draws 3KW then pool pump I think 1.1 or less then heat mump 2.5KW It says so if all run a 5KW inverter wont cut it . So taking the geyser out of the equation already ads saving in the capital outlay department instead of going 10KW 12KW . 1 can go 5KW to say 8KW inverter . Although a LUX power is competitively priced.

Then Batteries and solar panels 10 to 12 decently spect'd panels are from 15000 up 450Watt up panels . So don't

have the capital .

3) I would like to do the whole system with cash on hand instead of loans adding to the burden on a monthly bases and adding costs.

Otherwise I must just keep out and hope I can save a decent capital amount to install a full system.

cheers

14 hours ago, zsde said:

My current solar installation had one prime reason only. Independence, i.e. not to have to rely on a government service that may or may not work. Even if the costs of the system and maintenance over a 10 year period happens to end up to cost the same as what I would have paid Eskom, having uninterrupted supply is a blessing.
Of course their kWh prices will inflate every year, thus the longer my system is in use, the bigger the saving becomes.
The capital outlay is not cheap, but it's a lot cheaper than the new shiny 4 X 4 that is not really needed.

Exactly buddy

I think the same way you do , but only thing is I can't even afford a 4x4.

I have always lived by the rule of More income .but keeping the expenses low to try and save . But it has become tough . So reducing monthly Eskom bills will be a blessing Especially if i lower that expense using Cash capital . This way it will feel like free electricity.

And yes I believe Eskom will become far worse . unless I am wrong and they actually surprise us all.

cheers

17 hours ago, rourke said:

So Talia B How much does it cost for the material all in including controller and Panels New.

Sorry for the late reply to your question but please embed the link so it shows up as@TaliaB . The price is site specific eg panel distance from geyser roof tipe.....ect.

Ballpark figure between 17~ 18.5k. This installation is a dedicated system change to your electrical installation and as such needs a Supplementary Certificate of Compliance (CoC) to cover the new work.

Edited May 22May 22 by TaliaB

19 hours ago, rourke said:

So yes I can also go grid tied inverter maybe say 5kw or 6kw and put the geyser on there ( Grid tied means it does not take a battery )

Although more costly at the start you will never see posts of using say a 8kW end state with batteries like Deye and Sunsynk and Solis hybrids but initially you use them as a grid tied without battery. This way the panels can power all the loads within the limitation of the PV connected.

The later on you add the batteries of the then current tech. Also lots of batteries are dumped to to tech changes when in fact even if you don't use the better comms method they can still function for years. If not too old one can use it with never batteries via voltage control. I use 2 complete batteries plus 2 x DIY banks and varying age bets ween them. The only negative the SOC will be just a indication. On the Deye I just endure my grid is on during the early morning or when we have very little sunlight during the previous day.

This suggestion is only to buy the inverter once but a lower capital requirement.

I started with a Solis without battery to only run my fridges during the day from PV with 2x270W panels before expanding to run any day time load. Load shedding was covered by a other inverter from 12V. This Solis grid tied can still be used to input into the aux port if I ever need to have more PV.

My main criteria was ROI.

Many options to expand systems.

21 hours ago, rourke said:

21 hours ago, rourke said: