DDD

LiFePO4
The cells are made by a few companies. Many buy the cell and put it in a name brand case. The chemical substance is also applied by controlled systems therefore they do get manufactured  like twins with a different stamp date.  In theory a LIPO bat is all using the same chemicals and therefore there is very little difference.

The difference is how you charge and discharge the batteries and the most important are the profit margins.  The most important part is not to over heat them. There are other technical stuff that is managed by the inverter. They are a lot easier to manage than lead acid.  If you get one at a good price it is a good battery then simply make sure they don't over heat. Most of the inverters have sufficient software and will cut off and control the current.

If esthetics matters and fancy electronics then they get more expensive but if they are in the dark and charged / discharge correctly then they are better priced do the same work and last the same discharge rates.
There are very cost effective over current relay that will protect your Lipo at a fraction of the cost.


 

Yesterday I did my dry runs on manufacturing the coils.  Although the coils will work 100% I realized that my formula for calculating lateral travel is not 100%.  This will prevent me from "packing" the windings tightly and will cause an increase in size that has a domino effect.
To calculate the travel I will get one of these tomorrow and from that I will have a very accurate lateral travel.  This will pack the windings very tight saving space saving copper wire.
 
Finlay the project is running faster and smoother now I have the manufacturing sorted and hopefully this week we will see the first few watts generated from the stater. That will provide the final formulas for rpm/Kw and how effective the electronic break will be combined with the software that emulates solar panels.
The electronics will generate two galvanic isolated power bands that I will be able to feed into my 2 inverters.  Maybe into the third one too.  The hope is to generate +/- 13Kwhr at the current wind speeds in Cape Town. 

With that successful  the next step will be to push for up to 17Kwhr in the stronger winds.  What will be nice is to add a second turbine that will have its own 20Kwhr inverter and then be able to feed parallel power to the inverters one side PV and other side wind genie.
Quit often when the winds are strong in winter the sun is low,  Thus the inverters will have an added function where by night and low sun high wind conditions it will pump power back into the grid 24/7 depending on THE WIND.

MPPT is for me a useless electronic device. It has losses and you pay a lot of money to generate loss and software is more flexible than a MPPT.

The way I am laying out the stater system and the control of the system I recon I will get away without feathering. 

A friend of mine is currently busy doing the mold for the blades and the  length is 1870mm.
I bought plans for the blade and once done hopefully replication will be a lot less work as I am the worst one when I have to saw cut and what ever.
The  blade I would like to make from fiberglass and aluminum instead of wood.
Once we have the blades and shaft that will determine the final length as I will mount it on a shaft with bearings so that I can feather it electronically by turning the blade. Feathering is easy and lets say its a more or less same concept as a chopper sets of blades just a lot more basic.
I have already sourced a local magnet supplier and I will use 70mm x 20mm x 12 mm Ferrite magnets. I am aiming at 128 magnets R54 each in stead of R128 each
12Kg copper wire @ R250 per 500Gram
Not sure what the costs of the electronics will be as I do it slightly differently.  Software is a cheap cheat I recon with a small control loop and a few Ct's and  R300 Mosfets CPU board R430 that will have a very good controller and will also control the feathering if my manage system is not good enough.
 In my case I want to use the same inverter that I use with solar.  Time will tell if I need a dedicated inverter.

I hope that the first one costs less than R15K  and then will source from China  as copper and magnets is 1/3 the cost compared to local suppliers.

I recon instead of having expensive batteries this will be more use full in the Cape Winters and windy nights.

My absolute main concern is the temperature of the stater windings.  4Kw is a lot of heat to get rid off.  I recon that is going to be my challenge to force wind in for cooling.
The dimensions will be as per the national rules.

Let me explain to you that I understand that a heat pump is "better" than geyser and let me take on the battery systems as well.
Something you have to understand I agree there is a place for heat pumps and there is a place for batteries I am not arguing that.  What I am saying not in my home I do not like expensive white elephants that keeps on demanding attention.  A frien of mine installed a power wall and all.  Over the R200K and they all ready have fancy battery issues....
These systems ask more money and attention than "skelmpie.".
The cost of a heat pump:

R 15 000 AND HOW LONG DES IT LAST and what is the cost to fix it?
In my case my electricity bill was more than R3K not sure how much it will be today and my water bill was > R 2000.
Today my water is 0 and my electricity is < R 0.00
That is a tax free savings of more than R5500 per month.
Some facts:
My computer is on 24/7 I have a 60 000l koi pond/reservoir I have +/- 17 000l swimming pool. 4 fridges 3 large size TV's A geyser and ... In this winter I was building stuff and used only +/- 50% of my solar system .
Let me also mention this that for all practical purposes its two families and the most my electricity was R884 for July.
Two  families each pays R440 if you wish.  And I give my neighbor free water.  All from my solar system
You must understand I do not do this "digging" I will die of boredom.  So I dig and scratch my hobby is my work and my work is my hobby. So I play.  I listen what people say do a test bed and then see what is the most "COST EFFECTIVE" solution.
Therefor my statement if you can afford R 100 000 for batteries then obviously don't listen to me.  The question is how many live in A > R 6M house and wants to save on a few Rand's of electricity.
Some one very dear and close to me install one of these fancy products and by luck his geyser was set correctly and there was no change.  This person listen to a salesman and at the end there was no savings.  Trust me it was far more than R1000 the cost.
Therefore my main aim for these debates are to show people you can start small expand and then start using the councils money to build your system.
You do not have to spend R 40 000 to start saving.

Therefore it would be far better for a person to install a solar geyser with some sort of collector than to buy a heat pump at a huge cost.  The reality is for +/- R 2000 and a bit of labor you can convert your own geyser and have an immediate impact.
Or even better take the R 900 as payment towards a gas hob and immediate you will see the difference.
Telling people you need R 50 K batteries, R 30 K heat pump and then R15 K fancy electronics to sound and look smart put it out of reach of +/- 90% in SA.  But a gas hob of R 2000 is in reach and its an immediate saving. That is then the first brick of the power saving lego blocks.  The next is to do the geyser and will cost +/- R3000 and all of a sudden for R5000 and no fancy electronics the savings are noticeable.  I saw a advert on gumtree for R1000 as the person wanted to upgrade.  It is a vacuum tube system ...

It is this what I thought this article is about.  Not to spend money that a lot of people can never reach.  But once you spend it on the right stuff then for sure in 4/5 years you will be able to afford batteries and what ever and then you get either the council or the sun to pay.

I am sure that this person who asked the question is looking at a better priced system or solutions rather than spending R150K on equipment that you will never have a ROI with an account of R 1500.

Therefore my "aggression" towards fancy electronics and gimmicks that makes sale people look smart.  Remember I live and eat electronics so I am not anti that stuff.
We should be realistic and help people to start get out of the grip of those that steel from us and that is my aim.

Do I have anything against a heat pump no.  I just can't see how on earth am I going to get R20K back in 3 years on R 1500 electricity account.

I assure you this person if he installs a gas hob he will immediately see the difference then he will be exited for the next step and then before long he will have his own solar and ...
 
Once people realize you can by a starter and expand more will go this way.
 
But how on earth do you tell some one start by spending R20K on a heat pump, R 50K on batteries and you have not saved a single penny?  There is absolutely no logic in it. Does this mean I am anti some of these devices no not at all.

Therefore what I am trying to achieve is to have a path from where a person can see the end goal and achieve step by step success with out hurting monthly expenses.

PLEASE I DO NOT THINK YOU CAN'T AFFORD FANCY STUFF.  I am only trying to lay out a basic plan from where the most money get wasted and then you can build on with other blocks and pieces and listen to those and then waste money on geyser wize, batteries and heat pumps.  But first get the basics in place that you waste council money and not your own.
 
Yes batteries has it place, heat pumps to  but only for those who can afford it and who wants to waste their hard earned money.

So 'n  bek kort jam!!!!!!

Good grieve,
 
Reading all the issues with batteries I am so glad I dumped mine went on grid smiling all the way and final;y I am getting my monies worth.
A lot was attacking me when I indicated that batteries are extremely costly and almost useless COMPARED TO GRID TIED and thanks to all I never knew so many agrees with me.
 
Think about it no extra logic, electronics.  My light backups are from a few 12V gel 7.2A @ R70 when they go I dumped them. I do not worry about heat, Celsius cost cycles over voltage under voltage R140 and I have 7 hours backup.  After a few years I dumped them and thanks to Eskom increases I do not feel the pain.

To all of those underlying my point about batteries not worth it and very expensive and requires a lot of additional junk to try and make it successful I appreciate your support,
Thank you.


Many thanks  to all this article underlines why people should go grid tie and not support the Chinese and buy a lot of expensive problems!!!

Oh I am Afrikaans so my English not so good. I have already put the figures on the table in table format.
I have a model right down to every 1 minute in measuring and ..
My bad language and lack of expressing is sufficient to say you guys won and good luck.

 

If you can get 11c back on surplus.  It means for +/- 10 hours a day you pay R0.00.
If you look at 07H30 and 18H15. I have used .663 Kwhr and pushed back 38.4
This 38.4 for this Kwhr on this device meant the following:
It stopped my total Kwhr from increasing It prolonged the step tariff there for I never reach the higher values. This means that all my needs plus was not billed for. The majority of my account was billed at tarrif 2.  This means that the way you get nailed when you cross that threshold in my case was the bulk of my account.  That has dropped to 0.00 IF I now use Eskom power I never reach the 600 Kwhr mark.  What you should know it is for more than one house hold. Its not always what you getting back is what you are also preventing the cost between 600 - 900Kwhr = roughly R900 the cost  for 0 - 600 is roughly R 900. 
This has been totally removed from my account. Therefore a thought If I buy 500l diesel  from lets say Caltex and I return  500l is the difference between cost and profit returned by Caltex or is the cost of the 500l returned.
I believe that should be tested in a court of law.
The proof is in the case of COCT they do not have to pay Eskom, they can sell my Kwhr for 4 times the cost of Eskom.  The constitution states that a local authority should not make a profit.
I have proof that they made more than R37 000 on a cost of R2431.
Who knows but I would love to test that,   😇
We all must remember that SSEG is not that old and the more we give input and facts to Nersa and committees the greater chance we stand to be treated fairly.
If I am limited in speech its be cause of I would love to test the depth of the water so we all can walk easy in the future.  Perhaps next year who knows.  But that there is a common incorrect billing attitudes and calculations is to put it mildly.
I have added NERSA "current" view on SSEG. 
Let me share some data:
 
"2021-12-07 00:15" 0.62 0.155 0 0 0.391 0.061 "2021-12-07 00:30" 0.544 0.136 0 0 0.391 0.053 "2021-12-07 00:45" 0.56 0.14 0 0 0.391 0.055 "2021-12-07 01:00" 0.68 0.17 0 0 0.391 0.066 "2021-12-07 01:15" 0.772 0.193 0 0 0.391 0.075 "2021-12-07 01:30" 0.7 0.175 0 0 0.391 0.068 "2021-12-07 01:45" 0.636 0.159 0 0 0.391 0.062 "2021-12-07 02:00" 0.692 0.173 0 0 0.391 0.068 "2021-12-07 02:15" 0.736 0.184 0 0 0.391 0.072 "2021-12-07 02:30" 0.748 0.187 0 0 0.391 0.073 "2021-12-07 02:45" 0.744 0.186 0 0 0.391 0.073 "2021-12-07 03:00" 0.668 0.167 0 0 0.391 0.065 "2021-12-07 03:15" 0.592 0.148 0 0 0.391 0.058 "2021-12-07 03:30" 0.724 0.181 0 0 0.391 0.071 "2021-12-07 03:45" 0.792 0.198 0 0 0.391 0.077 "2021-12-07 04:00" 0.612 0.153 0 0 0.391 0.060 "2021-12-07 04:15" 1.888 0.472 0 0 0.391 0.185 "2021-12-07 04:30" 2.812 0.703 0 0 0.391 0.275 "2021-12-07 04:45" 2.38 0.595 0 0 0.391 0.233 "2021-12-07 05:00" 1.968 0.492 0 0 0.391 0.192 "2021-12-07 05:15" 3.336 0.834 0 0 0.391 0.326 "2021-12-07 05:30" 2.568 0.642 0 0 0.391 0.251 "2021-12-07 05:45" 0.484 0.121 0 0 0.391 0.047 "2021-12-07 06:00" 0.584 0.146 0 0 0.391 0.057 "2021-12-07 06:15" 0.276 0.069 0 0 0.855 0.059 "2021-12-07 06:30" 0.156 0.039 0 0 0.855 0.033 "2021-12-07 06:45" 1.376 0.344 0 0 0.855 0.294 "2021-12-07 07:00" 2.976 0.744 0 0 0.855 0.636 "2021-12-07 07:15" 3.644 0.911 0 0 0.686 0.625 "2021-12-07 07:30" 1.208 0.302 0.072 0.288 0.686 0.207 "2021-12-07 07:45" 0.008 0.002 0.138 0.552 0.686 0.001 "2021-12-07 08:00" 0 0 0.29 1.16 0.686 0.000 "2021-12-07 08:15" 0.044 0.011 0.306 1.224 0.686 0.008 "2021-12-07 08:30" 0.536 0.134 0.212 0.848 0.686 0.092 "2021-12-07 08:45" 0 0 0.601 2.404 0.686 0.000 "2021-12-07 09:00" 0.676 0.169 0.192 0.768 0.686 0.116 "2021-12-07 09:15" 0.08 0.02 0.263 1.052 0.686 0.014 "2021-12-07 09:30" 0 0 0.821 3.284 0.686 0.000 "2021-12-07 09:45" 0 0 0.792 3.168 0.686 0.000 "2021-12-07 10:00" 0 0 0.975 3.9 0.686 0.000 "2021-12-07 10:15" 0 0 1.115 4.46 0.686 0.000 "2021-12-07 10:30" 0 0 1.262 5.048 0.686 0.000 "2021-12-07 10:45" 0 0 1.16 4.64 0.686 0.000 "2021-12-07 11:00" 0 0 1.376 5.504 0.686 0.000 "2021-12-07 11:15" 0 0 1.363 5.452 0.686 0.000 "2021-12-07 11:30" 0 0 1.386 5.544 0.686 0.000 "2021-12-07 11:45" 0 0 1.295 5.18 0.686 0.000 "2021-12-07 12:00" 0 0 0.769 3.076 0.686 0.000 "2021-12-07 12:15" 0 0 0.633 2.532 0.686 0.000 "2021-12-07 12:30" 0.012 0.003 1.174 4.696 0.686 0.002 "2021-12-07 12:45" 0 0 1.469 5.876 0.686 0.000 "2021-12-07 13:00" 0 0 1.372 5.488 0.686 0.000 "2021-12-07 13:15" 0 0 1.34 5.36 0.686 0.000 "2021-12-07 13:30" 0 0 1.357 5.428 0.686 0.000 "2021-12-07 13:45" 0 0 1.297 5.188 0.686 0.000 "2021-12-07 14:00" 0 0 1.468 5.872 0.686 0.000 "2021-12-07 14:15" 0 0 1.444 5.776 0.686 0.000 "2021-12-07 14:30" 0 0 1.265 5.06 0.686 0.000 "2021-12-07 14:45" 0 0 1.094 4.376 0.686 0.000 "2021-12-07 15:00" 0 0 1.311 5.244 0.686 0.000 "2021-12-07 15:15" 0 0 1.3 5.2 0.686 0.000 "2021-12-07 15:30" 0 0 1.203 4.812 0.686 0.000 "2021-12-07 15:45" 0 0 1.13 4.52 0.686 0.000 "2021-12-07 16:00" 0 0 0.992 3.968 0.686 0.000 "2021-12-07 16:15" 0 0 1.057 4.228 0.686 0.000 "2021-12-07 16:30" 0 0 0.932 3.728 0.686 0.000 "2021-12-07 16:45" 0 0 0.508 2.032 0.686 0.000 "2021-12-07 17:00" 0 0 0.372 1.488 0.686 0.000 "2021-12-07 17:15" 0.024 0.006 0.393 1.572 0.686 0.004 "2021-12-07 17:30" 0.064 0.016 0.411 1.644 0.686 0.011 "2021-12-07 17:45" 0 0 0.327 1.308 0.686 0.000 "2021-12-07 18:00" 0 0 0.17 0.68 0.686 0.000 "2021-12-07 18:15" 0.076 0.019 0.032 0.128 1.052 0.020 "2021-12-07 18:30" 0.36 0.09 0 0 1.052 0.095 "2021-12-07 18:45" 0.544 0.136 0 0 1.052 0.143 "2021-12-07 19:00" 0.764 0.191 0 0 1.052 0.201 "2021-12-07 19:15" 0.856 0.214 0 0 1.052 0.225 "2021-12-07 19:30" 1.192 0.298 0 0 1.052 0.313 "2021-12-07 19:45" 3.328 0.832 0 0 1.052 0.875 "2021-12-07 20:00" 4.184 1.046 0 0 1.052 1.100 "2021-12-07 20:15" 1.508 0.377 0 0 0.686 0.259 "2021-12-07 20:30" 1.42 0.355 0 0 0.686 0.244 "2021-12-07 20:45" 1.316 0.329 0 0 0.686 0.226 "2021-12-07 21:00" 1.344 0.336 0 0 0.686 0.231 "2021-12-07 21:15" 1.244 0.311 0 0 0.686 0.213 "2021-12-07 21:30" 1.396 0.349 0 0 0.686 0.239 "2021-12-07 21:45" 1.276 0.319 0 0 0.686 0.219 "2021-12-07 22:00" 1.152 0.288 0 0 0.686 0.198 "2021-12-07 22:15" 1.112 0.278 0 0 0.391 0.109 "2021-12-07 22:30" 1.024 0.256 0 0 0.391 0.100 "2021-12-07 22:45" 1 0.25 0 0 0.391 0.098 "2021-12-07 23:00" 1.12 0.28 0 0 0.391 0.110 "2021-12-07 23:15" 1.104 0.276 0 0 0.391 0.108 "2021-12-07 23:30" 3.008 0.752 0 0 0.391 0.294 "2021-12-07 23:45" 4.164 1.041 0 0 0.391 0.407 "2021-12-08 00:00" 4.08 1.02 0 0 0.391 0.399  
NERSA_Consultation_paper_on_Municipal_Tariff_Guidelines_and_Benchmarks_2019-20.pdf

prove it with figures please.
 
Let me try and explain again.  if you use 1330 Kwhr per month OR 43Kwh per day.

The cost is in Cpt
600 x R 2.09  = R1254
730 x R2.65   = R1934
                          R3188

Take note mine was higher. If I now push back 730 Kwhr  720Kw equals 24 Kwhr per day. 
Lets calculate:
730Kwhr per month  x 12 months  divide by 365Hrs equal 24Kwhr thus for an 8 hour day you need 4Kwhr for push back.

First the R 1934 disappear.  That means I am already saving R 1934 per month. Simply put just on the penalties.

Now do you honestly want to tell me this can be done with batteries if you have to replace them VERY OFTEN and struggle and struggle an new topic is already showing an new installation with problems
Just that takes away you meter cost, your levy if you wish.
And most important the R1934 is staying in MY POCKET and you want to tell me its not worth it?
I bet you drive 5 Ferrari's and live in a R160M house or am I wrong?  The fact is the R2K will pay the solar and once paid you do not have to buy new batteries fancy electronic devices that can not be used for an anchor and throw money in a bottomless pit.
Come on R2000 a month TAX FREE increase for doing nothing is about 10% of 40% of this countries work force.
Your financials does not make any sense and that is the problem a lot of talk and no facts.
Thus again if I take my pathetic system of R56 K compare it to alset of my friend that cost R285K I have no battery issues that they already have and I save a lot more.
Then let me share another point go and look at the accounts the costing in COCT is now split into two costs.
My question to the power was simple if I have free internet and the Landis & Carr meter works on internet why must I pay the high fee.
The next account came R85 for comms and R165 for maintenance.
Now let me take it one step further.  I did the maths send the facts to the City of Cape Town.  with the cost of the batteries the money flowing out of the country to China the constant issues as per this site and the cost analyses the City of Cape Town gave a 25c intensive.
If I dig somewhere I can show you the emails to several people both political and financial I contacted.  It does not make sense to let this amount of money go to China plus the issues that comes with it.  For that I am in favor of a 50% import tariff on those batteries as they are not worth it.
Therefore we can fight about load shedding, we can fight about who has the smartest and most expensive system that it requires constant attention repairs inputs money ...
Lets make effort to communicate with FACTS to the powers and ithey will listen and already credit to the COCT they listen and then did changes.
If I kept quite grid tied in COCT would not have received the 25c increase and they would not have split the cost so we can provide free internet.
I even offered them to install routers, communications device it will be a once off of +/- R8000 then we all can gain from not paying Vodacom  MTN and ...
But funny not a single person is prepared to take me on.
When you do the calculations the looser is China, Eskom, Zuma, Gyptas,  not me and those who see the light.
 
 

Nope I have three grid tie inverters.  My old inverter that I used with the 48V if you wish batteries is standing some where and rusting. 
I use 2 x 12V 7.5A batteries a small charger for my lights backup ..
When I started grid tied I was not sure so I bought a 1.2Kw Solis.  It did not last in my conditions and the salt / damp blew the in puts.

Then there where some shortages and I got me a 3k3 solis grid tied.  Cost was if I remember correctly R8300 hope I am right.
Then my other 2 cost a little more at R5K each.  Three inverters something like R18300 can't remember the Solis price.
I don;t bother about the stuff anymore but I think I have 8 or 10 second hand 330W panels.  It was around 12K for it could not remember. That brings me to R30K keep the change.
Like I said others thought its rubbish its still generating the same power as when I got it.
When my wind genie works properly I recon I will add another 2 10Kw units.....  Because I am designing the electronics the genies will connect to the 10K plus these units and I recon in the good winds I will push 14 - 17Kwhr per turbine. Or in low winds something like 350W.
Trust me it is basic installation.  I took a dedicated 3 phase cable from my 1 DB to the roof. Have an isolater switch 3 phase.  This T in after my main cct breaker.  In the meter box on the pavement I have 3 120A breakers.  Each inverter has its own cct breaker on mains.
No junction boxes no other electronics except my own  power meter.
Three DC fuses for the solar panels.  Mean and lean.  Each inverter has its own set of panels with a good 220V cable to the little DB  with breakers.
It complies to all specs rules and safety and ... In total 9 meters conduit. The cable was expensive as it is a 4 wire 120 amp per phase cable if you wish.
And that is it. Not impressive not expensive not fancy not something I will show photos of as it is nowhere in the league of what is installed and showed on this blog and rightfully laughable.  Some people that came to look was shocked how little and how basic. A proper cheap and nasty was a comment.

The back up. They are either 12V or 24V depending of the LED lights.  I started running 12V then realize its a waste. 
I am getting another 5 batteries next week for some more stuff  and they are brand new R75 each.  Gell no fumes no issues no ...
It can either switch automatically to backup lights or switch on via a switch or CPU
Cheap and nasty and extremely effective. 

I have already done it in another topic
So why do it again?
If people did not believe that then why should they believe it now?

Any person should be able to calculate.  If I paid R3500 per month electricity and now pay R0.00 I save R3500 or 12 x R3500 = R42000 per year.  If I have to replace my batteries I must safe this and donate it to China again. Very basic stuff.
My system cost me R56K my backups  a few bob if they die I through it away and get a new battery 12V 7A  R75 x 2.
Thus R56000 - R42000 = R14 000 left in 12 months.  It is actually more but lets keep it at this it is easy maths.
In fact my system is so basic, ugly and so stupid I am embarrassed to refer to it. Some of my panels I bought second hand because others thought it was rubbish.
Few years back I had 4 rows of 4 x 12V x 200A that I charged with out an MPPT.  I sold it as scrap and got a few R000  for it.  Then the decision was made no batteries again.  Please note if you have to use batteries then this is not part of it.
I am too embarrassed to compare my system  to those who spend R100-R200-R300K.
But then If your electricity is R2000 a month and you save R1800 on a R200K system which is not much BASED ON THE INFO  of others writing here it will take 100 months to break even.  Then I would like to know who has a R200 000 system with fancy batteries pays no electricity have no issues and in 12 months got 75% back on what they spend had no problems and did not have to lift a finger.  Can you guys send me the list please. Let me make it clear to do my job for me I got 75% back in 12 months.  If you spend R100 000 then you must have save R75000 in a year R200 000 savings is R 150 000.
Please do not forget the list I would love to go and visit and see them. There might be so many that me and my wife can go on a year touring journey to visit the people.
By then the reality is after some time your batteries from what people write will have issues and then it will cost a this and a that and another amount of money. This is not me writing this, this is clever people on this blog with expensive batteries and ..... Therefore shoot them not me.  Take note I have spend 000 except if I expand to caver more the get more back.  Not a singe cent.
Imagine I spend R0.00 with a pathetic system.  The only problem I have no brag rights as it is basic, cheap, ugly and pathetic and even second hand I never have to ask about battery voltage charging systems maintenance.  My system has no issues and now I am doing the wind turbine.
From my little database and info gathering I am now challenging the calculation of electricity for grid tied systems. I have asked for time billing and ..
Next year  I will make a proper submission to the mayor comity to re look at "kick back" and...
I wonder how many will have to support China for odds and sodds?
The facts if we do not calculate argue and get inputs we all can fall in a grove and the difference between a grove and grave is the depth.
The calculation on feeding back and profits is extremely simple and so are those on expensive batteries.
The people who write in this blog constantly have issues please TAKE  NOTE NOT ME THE PEOPLE PRO BATTERIES.
The cost of batteries are a given, the maintenance and up keeping as put out in this article nothing but a disaster and always another expense.
I am not going to do the calculations but let me share with you a little what I do. My business equipment must have a 24/7 up time else I am loosing a lot. I tried all batteries for load shedding for our electronic equipment. My 12V 10X and 200amp batteries are 4 - 7 years old. These batteries I paid R1800 for a 120 amp battery.  The chargers I have designed and use is extremely low cost try it 50a 12V/24V R195. So if you truly want to take me on get any one on this site to compare batteries with batteries. If you want to go one step further I can show you comments from the design engineers of major suppliers of batteries commenting on my designs.  In no other words cost wise, easy replacement wise and maintenance wise there are some batteries that I can not recall when last we have visited them.  Every single outage for the past years they operated and still going strong. I do not know what the cell voltages are or have to worry about this or that.
Would I swap them for these expensive stuff not in a million years.
Sorry to say batteries are not there to safe with. They are there to supply power in an emergency and never a good product to safe with.

This may create a far more sinister messages but roughly put read what the people NOT ME say about the expensive stuff.  Some one tried to sell a faulty battery for R10K. It fascinates me that people still try to convince people to get batteries after I would argue the most articles is on this blog contains "expensive batteries life cycle and charging and maintaining" it. Why on earth would I dig a deep whole for myself and almost kill myself by jumping in it?
Not me chatting about it but others.  Go and read it.
 
The interesting point is every one discusses how to get maximum charge, maximum life how expensive these wonder batteries and they are better than sliced bread.  Well I do not talk about my system it simply works requires no attention and no costs.  As a fact it is the reason why less money is leaving my pocket.
But why then does so many struggle with these wonderful products?  Help me understand it please.  If the suppliers know what they doing and they can't better on my dumb and stupid deep cycle batteries how on earth must I believe that it is a good product when almost every article is about struggles?
If they are that wonderful as many claim I am sure Ferrari will pay you millions to get them for F1 racing.
What I don't understand not a single person in a single discussion could explain TOTAL cost and savings versus grid tied. 
Let me return the challenge you beat me and proof me wrong then next year I will arrange for an Ox braai for those who wants to come and enjoy the day with who are there. Free and on me.  Any one can challenge me if I am right then you pay for it and pay me double. In short put your money where your mouth is I am prepared to do that.
Please not you are more than welcome to insult and challenge me.

Something went wrong with cut and paste  I will fix it and paste again
Coun Col R @ Step T R 386.77 R 397.90 R 430.67 R 430.67 R 505.36 R 505.36 R 576.29 R 576.29 R 591.49 R 591.49 R 621.34 R 621.34 R 559.28 R 559.28 R 463.78 R 479.68 R 342.63 R 371.24 R 377.23 R 396.89 R 435.21 R 448.50 R 525.02 R 562.13 R 314.40 R 443.25 R 198.71 R 396.29 R-174.11 R 268.36 R-380.42 R 237.76 R-595.19 R 214.21 R-911.39 R 179.05 R-1,036.43 R 188.49 R-310.38 R 345.16 R-228.04 R 341.87 R 31.63 R 412.71 R 641.31 R 973.62 R 536.83 R 946.33 R 236.33 R 812.78 R-532.08 R 307.50 R-493.81 R 366.00 R-493.93 R 352.97 R-187.50 R 112.45     R 2,431.00 R 12,839.59                                                                                                                                

Good grieve,
 
Reading all the issues with batteries I am so glad I dumped mine went on grid smiling all the way and final;y I am getting my monies worth.
A lot was attacking me when I indicated that batteries are extremely costly and almost useless COMPARED TO GRID TIED and thanks to all I never knew so many agrees with me.
 
Think about it no extra logic, electronics.  My light backups are from a few 12V gel 7.2A @ R70 when they go I dumped them. I do not worry about heat, Celsius cost cycles over voltage under voltage R140 and I have 7 hours backup.  After a few years I dumped them and thanks to Eskom increases I do not feel the pain.

To all of those underlying my point about batteries not worth it and very expensive and requires a lot of additional junk to try and make it successful I appreciate your support,
Thank you.


Many thanks  to all this article underlines why people should go grid tie and not support the Chinese and buy a lot of expensive problems!!!

I also 100% agree with you that the grid is your best battery. My father in the Seychelles has solar and the municipality allows 1:1 credit for your solar output - e.g. if you put 1kwH into the grid, you get 1kwH in credit on your account (you an only spend the credit on electricity, they will not pay you out). He has a beautiful bell curve of power production every day and a couple of small batteries in case the grid goes out (rare but it does happen).

My challenge is City of JHB and most of the country outside of the Western Cape will either pay you nothing for your feed-in or close to nothing 10c-30c per kwh, plus jumping through several hoops. So the question is where do we focus our efforts - do we think there is a realistic chance of persuading City of Johannesburg or others to give us reasonable tariffs. Might be easier to move to the Cape!

I'm confused, do you have a Hybrid inverter with panels, that push back power into the grid, and therefor you're saying you are a net supplier  to City of Cape Town, or are you fully off grid with 12V 7.2AH batteries for lights, and maybe a generator? An explanation of your system would be great.
I started with 12V DC lights throughout the house, then a bunch of pure sine wave inverters, and now am happy with a SunSync 8.8K machine with panels and lithium batteries. I absolutely have to have good batteries, as the power grid in my area is Bad. There have been times the power is off for days, and some weeks we experience three power outages a week, which has nothing to do with load-shedding. Oh, and as a final backup, I also have a generator. For those who don't believe me, come to KZN, midlands. 😂
@RichardZA Batteries, and more batteries, plus panels to charge them, as the power grid countrywide will sooner or later get even more unreliable.👍

I have already done it in another topic
So why do it again?
If people did not believe that then why should they believe it now?

Any person should be able to calculate.  If I paid R3500 per month electricity and now pay R0.00 I save R3500 or 12 x R3500 = R42000 per year.  If I have to replace my batteries I must safe this and donate it to China again. Very basic stuff.
My system cost me R56K my backups  a few bob if they die I through it away and get a new battery 12V 7A  R75 x 2.
Thus R56000 - R42000 = R14 000 left in 12 months.  It is actually more but lets keep it at this it is easy maths.
In fact my system is so basic, ugly and so stupid I am embarrassed to refer to it. Some of my panels I bought second hand because others thought it was rubbish.
Few years back I had 4 rows of 4 x 12V x 200A that I charged with out an MPPT.  I sold it as scrap and got a few R000  for it.  Then the decision was made no batteries again.  Please note if you have to use batteries then this is not part of it.
I am too embarrassed to compare my system  to those who spend R100-R200-R300K.
But then If your electricity is R2000 a month and you save R1800 on a R200K system which is not much BASED ON THE INFO  of others writing here it will take 100 months to break even.  Then I would like to know who has a R200 000 system with fancy batteries pays no electricity have no issues and in 12 months got 75% back on what they spend had no problems and did not have to lift a finger.  Can you guys send me the list please. Let me make it clear to do my job for me I got 75% back in 12 months.  If you spend R100 000 then you must have save R75000 in a year R200 000 savings is R 150 000.
Please do not forget the list I would love to go and visit and see them. There might be so many that me and my wife can go on a year touring journey to visit the people.
By then the reality is after some time your batteries from what people write will have issues and then it will cost a this and a that and another amount of money. This is not me writing this, this is clever people on this blog with expensive batteries and ..... Therefore shoot them not me.  Take note I have spend 000 except if I expand to caver more the get more back.  Not a singe cent.
Imagine I spend R0.00 with a pathetic system.  The only problem I have no brag rights as it is basic, cheap, ugly and pathetic and even second hand I never have to ask about battery voltage charging systems maintenance.  My system has no issues and now I am doing the wind turbine.
From my little database and info gathering I am now challenging the calculation of electricity for grid tied systems. I have asked for time billing and ..
Next year  I will make a proper submission to the mayor comity to re look at "kick back" and...
I wonder how many will have to support China for odds and sodds?
The facts if we do not calculate argue and get inputs we all can fall in a grove and the difference between a grove and grave is the depth.
The calculation on feeding back and profits is extremely simple and so are those on expensive batteries.
The people who write in this blog constantly have issues please TAKE  NOTE NOT ME THE PEOPLE PRO BATTERIES.
The cost of batteries are a given, the maintenance and up keeping as put out in this article nothing but a disaster and always another expense.
I am not going to do the calculations but let me share with you a little what I do. My business equipment must have a 24/7 up time else I am loosing a lot. I tried all batteries for load shedding for our electronic equipment. My 12V 10X and 200amp batteries are 4 - 7 years old. These batteries I paid R1800 for a 120 amp battery.  The chargers I have designed and use is extremely low cost try it 50a 12V/24V R195. So if you truly want to take me on get any one on this site to compare batteries with batteries. If you want to go one step further I can show you comments from the design engineers of major suppliers of batteries commenting on my designs.  In no other words cost wise, easy replacement wise and maintenance wise there are some batteries that I can not recall when last we have visited them.  Every single outage for the past years they operated and still going strong. I do not know what the cell voltages are or have to worry about this or that.
Would I swap them for these expensive stuff not in a million years.
Sorry to say batteries are not there to safe with. They are there to supply power in an emergency and never a good product to safe with.

This may create a far more sinister messages but roughly put read what the people NOT ME say about the expensive stuff.  Some one tried to sell a faulty battery for R10K. It fascinates me that people still try to convince people to get batteries after I would argue the most articles is on this blog contains "expensive batteries life cycle and charging and maintaining" it. Why on earth would I dig a deep whole for myself and almost kill myself by jumping in it?
Not me chatting about it but others.  Go and read it.
 
The interesting point is every one discusses how to get maximum charge, maximum life how expensive these wonder batteries and they are better than sliced bread.  Well I do not talk about my system it simply works requires no attention and no costs.  As a fact it is the reason why less money is leaving my pocket.
But why then does so many struggle with these wonderful products?  Help me understand it please.  If the suppliers know what they doing and they can't better on my dumb and stupid deep cycle batteries how on earth must I believe that it is a good product when almost every article is about struggles?
If they are that wonderful as many claim I am sure Ferrari will pay you millions to get them for F1 racing.
What I don't understand not a single person in a single discussion could explain TOTAL cost and savings versus grid tied. 
Let me return the challenge you beat me and proof me wrong then next year I will arrange for an Ox braai for those who wants to come and enjoy the day with who are there. Free and on me.  Any one can challenge me if I am right then you pay for it and pay me double. In short put your money where your mouth is I am prepared to do that.
Please not you are more than welcome to insult and challenge me.

Something went wrong with cut and paste  I will fix it and paste again
Coun Col R @ Step T R 386.77 R 397.90 R 430.67 R 430.67 R 505.36 R 505.36 R 576.29 R 576.29 R 591.49 R 591.49 R 621.34 R 621.34 R 559.28 R 559.28 R 463.78 R 479.68 R 342.63 R 371.24 R 377.23 R 396.89 R 435.21 R 448.50 R 525.02 R 562.13 R 314.40 R 443.25 R 198.71 R 396.29 R-174.11 R 268.36 R-380.42 R 237.76 R-595.19 R 214.21 R-911.39 R 179.05 R-1,036.43 R 188.49 R-310.38 R 345.16 R-228.04 R 341.87 R 31.63 R 412.71 R 641.31 R 973.62 R 536.83 R 946.33 R 236.33 R 812.78 R-532.08 R 307.50 R-493.81 R 366.00 R-493.93 R 352.97 R-187.50 R 112.45     R 2,431.00 R 12,839.59                                                                                                                                

An increase of 20% is a very good thing. 
Then I get 20% extra on my electricity feeding back into the grid.

So please stop complaining it a very good idea.
Next year they must ask for another 20% then I get even more.

I do not have to worry about cells not charging properly get additional equipment for monitoring the cells.  This means I immediately get more back and a far better and faster ROI.

Yes they must get the 20%.  I

What a pleasure I am getting 20% increase because other steels.
They should actually award Eskom 30% increase.
Go for it I am smiling all the way what a pleasure.

Dankie Oom Zuma & Co
 
 

Bacteria are huge (~0.5 micron for the smallest bacteriums) compared to dissolved salts in water.  Molecular bonds with water are very small, even viruses which are free floating DNA + proteins in a capsule are enormous comparatively (0.1nm for RO filter vs ~20nm-200nm+ for viruses).  At worst the filter may not last as long due to fouling, but a UV after your particulate filter (not RO filter), will sort this out, including viruses
I would definitely use some pre-filters and not just a single pre-filter.  Also I would be careful about which RO filter is used.
Also some people seem to think you'll be ok as long as you don't drink the water.  But water is absorbed by your skin.  Unfiltered water is a touch biohazard.  Without filtering, you are taking a huge, huge risk for you and your family.  Whole house RO filter is an option, but expect no more than 50% efficiency with RO.
To give you an idea, the City of Cape Town strictly prohibits contact with water for facilities wishing to use "alternative" water, unless you pass rigorous testing over a 1 year period.  Meaning if you want to use that water, better not be in a way people can get in contact with it (toilet is ok, hand basin, f-no)

I have a 6.43 kWp array and there were a lot of Cape Town winter cloudy/rainy days could not fully charge my batteries, so no use getting another battery, only thing would be if CoCT made it easier and cheaper to feed in to the grid, then you could store surplus credits in summer and use it in winter.

Well dumb in the sense that they don't seem to provide mechanism to connect it to your inverter?  Do you even have a way to see what the BMS reports?  Like how do you get the data from their BMS?
EDIT: Ah ok, I see you are right, you can connect it to some inverters! "CAN Bus Comms: Victron,Growatt,Sunsync,DEYE".  There was another thread where someone said they had to set a pre-determined voltage and so on instead of the battery communicating with their Victron, so I assumed it was because it was a dumb unit.

Having built a LiFePO₄ of my own recently and having investigated many different brands, I would recommend Hubble.  Their price per kW/H is very good and they also have a BMS that can communicate externally.  Dumb LiFePO₄ are not worth it.  Those brands will die off at some point they are only around now because people are hasty to buy batteries.
Why I would take the Hubble over Pylon:
Pylon is way over priced in my opinion. Pylon is using 15s configuration (maybe they've switched to 16s for newer batteries?), whereas the likes of Hubble use 16s.  So your system voltage with Pylon is lower which just means lower efficiency for the inverter, especially at the bottom of the battery.  15s is really not ideal. EDIT: Reasons not to buy Hubble
Lastly having done a LOT of investigation, the general consensus is that age is much more of a factor than cycles with LiFePO₄ (at 80% DoD).  You cannot simply use cycles and say, oh so it'll last 15 years.  That is not accurate.  There is very little data on LiFePO₄ life but the data there is (that isn't by a manufacturer who have an agenda) is that LiFePO₄ can realistically last at most 10 years.  Regardless of the number of cycles you have, at 10 years it is likely you cells will start becoming unreliable (ie. some of them will no longer be able to hold charge).  Of course if you drain you battery 100% every day or many, many cycles, age is less important but let's assume you aren't an idiot.
So in terms of life time, there is no solid no manufacturer data yet because the technology is new, so take "life" of the battery guarantees with a pinch of salt, it is almost certainly a lie and they can back up their claim by saying they ran simulated ageing (which is what they do).  But it isn't reliable data.
Lastly LiFePO₄ ages significantly faster in hot conditions. 25 degrees -> 30 degrees is where you ideally want to keep it.  At 40 degrees you are effectively cutting your cell life in half from 30 degrees and it gets pretty hectic up at 60 degrees (like 2 years).
In closing I also want to advise you to be weary of falling into the trap of calculating savings and assuming you will have no additional expenses.  That is unrealistic expectation.  You will very likely have some kind of problems at some point, most people do.  Most people will come back around and call it "school fees".  I call it ignorance.  You are dealing with a complex electrical and complex chemical reaction system, don't expect it to be fire and forget.

There are two models:
Rainflow cycles - 6000 cycles at 80% means 6000 3.84kWh cycles.
Equivalent full cycles - 6000 cycles at 80% means 7500 3.84kWh cycles.
No battery datasheet I have seen specifies the method they refer to; so my guess is that they use the one that makes the figures look more favorable to them.
 
Another note - R0.998/kWh is the cost of the battery alone (and that assumes you throw it away when it reaches 80% SoH) and does not account for any cost associated with charging it.

One or more panels. It's also possible for cables to leak to earth, but it's far less likely.
 
Yes, but moisture can conduct enough current to cause problems without ionising air.
But I'll agree that a small leakage is very unlikely to cause a gunshot type of sound.

Not a silly question.  I have "my own"  three phase 10Kwatt inverter that will be interfaced to the turbine.  So I can do what I want to do.

For this reason it is easy to dump the MPPT and do an PV emulation with the same controller.  Thus I can save on component cost and interfacing cost.  I am not fond of MPPT as it caters for a bad design,  Each MPPT has its own complications and all it is  as I said in the past to compensate for a bad design. It also has its own losses
Hopefully I can run two three phase inverters on it one for the PV and one for the wind generator,
THAT IS THE ULTIMATE GOAL.
In my case I am working towards a larger unit 4 or 5M one depending on the success of this one.
There is a fair amount of EXTRA logic involved as the coils and magnets could create "cogging" very fast.
My objective is to make use of small to large size winds.
I want three moving parts which is three bearings nothing else. No breaks, no gears no MPPT no ...

With my own 3 phase meter that will form part of lets se what we will get.

Its gettting close to putting the first one together.

Let me share with you the past 24 Hr graph.  Based on facts not gut-feel my view but hard core facts:
classical graph of 24 hour usage.  For the past 24 hr we used 60 min power from the grid (Yellow line)
Timers are back on.
It started yesterday morning at 05h30.
At 06H30 the sun started warming the glass tubes
07H00 somebody bathed the geyser was pulled down to 39C and a quick heat by the holding tank 25 minutes later the geyser was back at 54C
The complete day went by not a single minute power was used.
Late last night the using of hot water 20 unit
During the night a top up of 15 minutes

Thus for 24 hr it is 25 + 25 + 15= 65 minutes of heating or 3.1Kwhr
 
My feedback to the grid yesterday after all my home usage was paid  I still had 38Kwhr spare that went to the rest of the account.
The only maintenance is the small circulation pump @ +/- R850. 

Here comes the trick:
Free water Free power Free hot water Account paid via solar and some spare What I will do is add another 10 or 15 panels I recon on a "colder" day that will keep the water good.
If I had a fancy timer or a heat pump or gas the cost would have been a lot more
Grid tied & Vacuum tubes and surplus solar power is unbeatable based on facts not assumptions or gut-feel.
Clearly shows all the timers is wasted money so is gas as you always HAVE to pay.
Do it right and hot water is totally free
No other system with expensive timers, heat pumps and or gas or even combination  can give you this.  If you run a geyser from batteries that is even more expensive.
If you have to use batteries or gas that's something else.

I red you have Eskom it will pay you to become grid tie and you then can even get your money back on the expensive batteries and ...   😇

 

A classical graph of 24 hour usage.  For the past 24 hr we used 60 min power from the grid (Yellow line)
Timers are back on.
It started yesterday morning at 05h30.
At 06H30 the sun started warming the glass tubes
07H00 somebody bathed the geyser was pulled down to 39C and a quick heat by the holding tank 25 minutes later the geyser was back at 54C
The complete day went by not a single minute power was used.
Late last night the using of hot water 20 unit
During the night a top up of 15 minutes

Thus for 24 hr it is 25 + 25 + 15= 65 minutes of heating or 3.1Kwhr
 
My feedback to the grid yesterday after all my home usage was paid  I still had 38Kwhr spare that went to the rest of the account.
The only maintenance is the small circulation pump @ +/- R850. 

Here comes the trick:
Free water Free power Free hot water Account paid via solar and some spare What I will do is add another 10 or 15 panels I recon on a "colder" day that will keep the water good.
If I had a fancy timer or a heat pump or gas the cost would have been a lot more
Grid tied & Vacuum tubes and surplus solar power is unbeatable based on facts not assumptions or gut-feel.
Clearly shows all the timers is wasted money so is gas as you always HAVE to pay.
Do it right and hot water is totally free