Please could someone advise on the following:- I am helping a friend who has an Ingecon Sun Storage 6TL inverter. Up till recently he has had 16 x 12 V lead acid batteries in series connected to the inverter. 9 of these batteries have "died" so he now has 7 in series. He is wanting to now go Lithium Ion batteries. The inverter can handle DC input from 40 - 300V. His installer has quoted on Freedom Won 15/12HV but the price is prohibitive. I have a couple of ideas to help him out

1.) 2 x Freedom Won 5/4 in series - 

2.) 3 x Pylontech US3000 in series - 

3.) 8 of the Blue Nova 13V - 108Ah Lithium Ion Batteries in series 

Am I on the right track or barking up the wrong tree?

On 2021/09/19 at 3:50 PM, Barry8355 said:

Up till recently he has had 16 x 12 V lead acid batteries in series connected to the inverter.

My guess is that these were actually wired 4S4P, for a 48 V system. 16 x 12 = 192 V nominal; I've not heard of such an inverter battery voltage. [ Edit: but see next post. ]

Please look up the specifications and tells us what the nominal battery voltage for the inverter is. I had a quick search, and could not immediately find it.

I can't see how he has 7 12 V modules working in any sensible way.

My understanding is that lithium modules can never be wired in series; the resultant voltage would exceed the ability of the silicon switches to safely disconnect the battery in case of a problem (e.g. one or a few individual cells over-voltage).

Edited September 21, 20214 yr by Coulomb

Looks like the battery voltage is indeed 40v to 450v.

On 2021/09/19 at 7:50 AM, Barry8355 said:

Please could someone advise on the following:- I am helping a friend who has an Ingecon Sun Storage 6TL inverter. Up till recently he has had 16 x 12 V lead acid batteries in series connected to the inverter. 9 of these batteries have "died" so he now has 7 in series. He is wanting to now go Lithium Ion batteries. The inverter can handle DC input from 40 - 300V. His installer has quoted on Freedom Won 15/12HV but the price is prohibitive. I have a couple of ideas to help him out

1.) 2 x Freedom Won 5/4 in series - 

2.) 3 x Pylontech US3000 in series - 

3.) 8 of the Blue Nova 13V - 108Ah Lithium Ion Batteries in series 

Am I on the right track or barking up the wrong tree?

From what I can see you will have some limitations on the BMS side with the above batteries (and hardware limitations as already mentioned on the US3000)

On the BlueNova I see the below statement (on one of the reseller websites - not sure if this is really true):

"Please note due to the limited BMS capabilities these batteries can only be connected up to two batteries 24V."

Seems like you would need to go for a high voltage setup, something like the Pylontech:

Pylon PowerCube H2 48V 74Ah for series connection for HV

And this needs a separate control unit.

https://www.livestainable.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/PowerCube-H2-Installation-Manual.pdf

https://portal.segensolar.co.za/reseller/docs/PowerCube-H1H2 Operation Manual V2.4.pdf

It would be better to contact the suppliers/manufacturers of the batteries you mentioned to confirm that you can exceed the 48volt specification (i.e. series connection)

Looking at the specs De0n19 gave.

Simplest choice is to start with a Hubble AM-2 lithium battery at 5.5Kw. The low end of this inverter is 40V, so no problem there, as the Hubble's range is 42V to 53.6V. This inverter can charge or discharge at 66A, the Hubble will have no problem with this, as its a 1C device, and can supply 100A. If you need more storage, but NOT more voltage (which you don't need) you can parallel 15 of these batteries to give yourself  82.5 Kw. Look on the powerforum shop for these batteries to get prices and specs.

https://powerforum-store.co.za/collections/featured-products/products/hubble-lithium-am-2-51v-5-5kwh100ah

 

26 minutes ago, TimCam said:

Looking at the specs De0n19 gave.

Simplest choice is to start with a Hubble AM-2 lithium battery at 5.5Kw. The low end of this inverter is 40V, so no problem there, as the Hubble's range is 42V to 53.6V. This inverter can charge or discharge at 66A, the Hubble will have no problem with this, as its a 1C device, and can supply 100A. If you need more storage, but NOT more voltage (which you don't need) you can parallel 15 of these batteries to give yourself  82.5 Kw. Look on the powerforum shop for these batteries to get prices and specs.

https://powerforum-store.co.za/collections/featured-products/products/hubble-lithium-am-2-51v-5-5kwh100ah

 

It looks like the max discharge is limited to 66 amps (elsewhere I saw 50 amps) on the inverter as you stated

this will limit your ability to draw 3200 watts from the AM2 and a second battery will increase capacity but not the ability to draw more. 
 

Hence you will limit the 6kw inverter to 3.2kw (maybe even less - See spec sheet that says 50 amps)?

1 hour ago, branderplank said:

It looks like the max discharge is limited to 66 amps (elsewhere I saw 50 amps) on the inverter as you stated

this will limit your ability to draw 3200 watts from the AM2 and a second battery will increase capacity but not the ability to draw more. 
 

Hence you will limit the 6kw inverter to 3.2kw (maybe even less - See spec sheet that says 50 amps)?

Looking at that datasheet, only 50A will be drawn from the battery, then it'll need 120V to be able to provide 6000W output. You right about that problem.🤔

Maybe make up a custom lithium battery with the right BMS. A couple of people on the forum enjoy doing such projects.

On 2021/09/19 at 7:50 AM, Barry8355 said:

His installer has quoted on Freedom Won 15/12HV but the price is prohibitive.

What was the price quote on the Freedom Won HV - I could not find any prices for it on the internet

Thank you all for your comments and suggestions. The quote on the 15/12HV was 112k. I am awaiting some further quotes on a 15/12HV as I also could not find any prices online. I have however had some good feedback from BlueNova who can make up a 104V unit. 

I don't see much point in using a 48V lithium battery due to  the 50A limit of the inverter.

36 minutes ago, Barry8355 said:

Thank you all for your comments and suggestions. The quote on the 15/12HV was 112k. I am awaiting some further quotes on a 15/12HV as I also could not find any prices online. I have however had some good feedback from BlueNova who can make up a 104V unit. 

I don't see much point in using a 48V lithium battery due to  the 50A limit of the inverter.

Maybe ask the guys from the PowerForum Store if they can get you a quote on the 15/12HV - worth a try?

I see the FreedomWon list a bunch of resellers as well

16 hours ago, De0n19 said:

Looks like the battery voltage is indeed 40v to 450v.

Thanks for the data; I stand corrected. A fairly unusual beast, I think.

It must treat the battery port like another PV input, except reversible so the battery can be charged as well as discharged.

@Barry8355Did you manage to get any further with this?

My friend managed to get the price of the 15/12HV reduced and has gone ahead and had it installed. Thanks again for all your responses and assistance.

For future ref: You can also look at the BYD LVS AND HVS systems, can be paralleled as well and have a BMS. The LVS is 48V and the HVS is between 150V and 512V, depending on model.

http://www.sustainable.co.za/media/pdf/byd/premium_hv.pdf

Edited October 1, 20214 yr by Sarel