1 minute ago, SilverNodashi said:

It should. But would it they accept it?

anyone here with a connection who can answer this?

13 minutes ago, gabriel said:

anyone here with a connection who can answer this?

Perhaps @The Terrible Triplett's BEEF? 

9 minutes ago, SilverNodashi said:

Perhaps @The Terrible Triplett's BEEF?

yip, mine is too rare and only good for tartare

@SilverNodashi we agree on most, as we also have had the Porsche type clients. Not anymore, for as Gabriel mentioned, they have other priorities. Ignorance of the regulations, as with the law, is unfortunately not the Law's problem, even if you cannot read. I have a motto in my business: Client is always right ... until proven wrong. It works very well for me AND my clients. Like when I say: Ok, you did not do that, I accept. We also have to accept that the computer cannot press that button by itself, at least not yet. So lets move on, shall we, and fix the problem. Always get chuckles from the clients with that approach, for they know I know they or someone else did it, and they KNOW it, but don't try and pass the blame, I'm here to help, not to take the blame, unless I was the cause, then I acknowledge that upfront  ... and still fix it for them. 

 

@plonkster yes I do feel for the owners of UPS'es that do not meet the regulations for UPS'es, THAT is a bummer. that is an annoyance. Class action against the sales peoples companies that willingly sold them as per management directives? But I have little thought for the "head in the sand", the persistent hiding of the facts or blatant ignoring of it all. When I do it, and yes I do duck and dive, I blame myself.

(Note all the I's - I chose therefor I am responsible - in Afrikaans: Balk in my oog of splinter in jou oog ... my oog is kry seerder") :-)

 

2 minutes ago, SilverNodashi said:

Perhaps @The Terrible Triplett's BEEF? 

Blue preferably.

Geez, I got you guys his details and I don't even have a grid tied system! After begin told I am mad for saying R10k is too much. And I did say over and over that UPS'es with solar panels, if seen as off grid, that they would be legit, as in fill in the form, done, that process to register off grid, is free. They will send someone out to check that it is indeed, as one said on the form, off grid.

That was till Plonkster burst that bubble of euphoria, pointing out, but what if person goes and puts it back as it was ... ? 

Joke aside. Seriously though I can but I have sent you his details plus am I not that technically minded (I am a picture guy) nor do I have as much skin in the game you guys have. 

I suggest you, even Plonkster, for he has some very good questions, to contact him? 

22 minutes ago, SilverNodashi said:

Hence "fat cats"

With the deluge of work about to come their way, the free market will soon give the cheaper guys more work.

37 minutes ago, SilverNodashi said:

He drives be a Porsche, but wanted to save some R5k on the battery bank.

Could be as simple as that the Porsche sucks up all the money. But yes, a clever man would sell the Porsche in that case.

28 minutes ago, gabriel said:

seen that with medical aids

Goes both ways really. Some people will pay 5k-7k a month (for principal member) in order to have dental cover. Someone like myself takes the best hospital plan (one that covers all hospital and emergency cover from the risk component with no co-payments) at half the price and pays for his own dental. Why? Cause I don't generally do 30k worth of dental in a year, why would I pay 30k+ extra for a plan that covers that?

35 minutes ago, gabriel said:

will a at present unlisted axpert be acceptable with a ziehl anti-aliasing device to the powers that be?

I cannot say. If the letter of NRS097-2-1 is applied, then no.

Quote

4.2.2.4.2 In order to detect an islanding condition, the embedded generator shall make use of at least one active islanding detection method. An active islanding detection method intentionally varies an output parameter and monitors the response or it attempts to cause an abnormal condition at the utility interface to trigger an out-of-bounds condition. If the utility supply is available, the attempt to vary an output parameter or cause an abnormal condition will fail and no response will be detected. However, if the utility supply network is de-energized, there will be a response to the change which can be detected. This signals an island condition to the embedded generator upon detection of which the embedded generator shall cease to energize the utility network within a specific time period.

Usually, the inverter will attempt to create a vector shift (ie cause a disturbance in the frequency), but with the low impedance grid connected it cannot accomplish this (can't exactly shift the entire country, can you?).

UPSes don't have such a measure.

The Ziehl is however on the list and it might be that the local guys are willing to overlook this issue and accept it. You will simply have to ask.

8 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

but what if person goes and puts it back as it was ... ?

Well, it could be that if a person does that, then that person is punished by the law. That would be the reasonable sensible thing. To change it back would require a CoC, right? And it has to be done by a qualified sparky, right? Find the sparky and fine him... oh you did the work yourself!? Here is your 6k fine... plus the 6k for reconnection.

As I was mulling this over, it occurred to me that there is another similar situation in our country: Television sets. If it is capable of receiving the signal, you must have a license. If you want to get out of that loop, you can have the television set modified so that it cannot receive the signal anymore (either by removing the tuner, or simply shorting it out internally so it cannot work).

But what then if afterwards the viewer restores the reception capability you may ask? Well, this thing is written in a way so that it must be declared annually, and if they send an inspector and it is not as you said it was, they throw the big heavy book at you.

Similarly, I would expect that if you neuter (in some manner) your equipments ability to connect to the grid in that way, it should pass as off-grid. If you restore it, and an inspector finds you (or worse.... someone dies when working on a cable)... you get thrown with the book.

That is what I would expect. That is the non-nanny-state option.

6 minutes ago, plonkster said:

cease to energize the utility network within a specific time period.

this presupposes that the inverter 'energized the utility network' in the 1st place  - but if an inverter can not feed back, how can it 'energize'?

that the inverter can not feed back must obviously be proven as per test house BUT if a gadget like the ziehl is BETWEEN the grid and the inverter making absolutely sure that no feedback is possible and the ziehl has been accepted to be proven [by the coct] do do just that than the 'chain' of 'investigative authority' from grid [coct] side in as far as sseg is concerned should end there, the rest of the circuit being the domain of a ordinary coc , not?

Just now, gabriel said:

this presupposes that the inverter 'energized the utility network' in the 1st place  - but if an inverter can not feed back, how can it 'energize'?

that the inverter can not feed back must obviously be proven as per test house BUT if a gadget like the ziehl is BETWEEN the grid and the inverter making absolutely sure that no feedback is possible and the ziehl has been accepted to be proven [by the coct] do do just that than the 'chain' of 'investigative authority' from grid [coct] side in as far as sseg is concerned should end there, the rest of the circuit being the domain of a ordinary coc , not?

Agreed. 

 

So, @plonkster do you know if the Zeihl can work with other brand inverters? i.e. is it completely stand-alone in itself?

30 minutes ago, gabriel said:

this presupposes that the inverter 'energized the utility network' in the 1st place  - but if an inverter can not feed back, how can it 'energize'?

 

28 minutes ago, SilverNodashi said:

 do you know if the Zeihl can work with other brand inverters? i.e. is it completely stand-alone in itself?

OK, time to get a little technical again.

So to get a feeling for this, think of your average Diesel generator. You turn on a load and the RPMs drop a little before the engine's governor picks up the load (which is reflected in the frequency on the grid side). Turn that large load off and the RPMs picks up a little before the engine backs off again. This is the basic principle of islanding: if things get connected or disconnected, usually it reflects in the voltage levels or the frequency.

Voltage and frequency can be monitored passively. You simply watch it and if something goes wrong, you pull the plug... I mean open the switch. Done.

But there is a tiny corner case: What if the voltage doesn't move, or the frequency doesn't shift? Of course this is very rare, because the grid is such a low impedance thing: If the grid goes out, it usually causes a large ant noticeable event. You cannot however rely on what usually happens when you consider fault conditions, you have to think about cases like cable theft for example (let's assume your loads and production were very well balanced and the thief cut the cable without causing any interruptions). To detect this corner case, you add an active measure. An active measure is when you try to push one of those parameters out of bounds. You don't try very hard, you just lean slightly to the left. The moment the grid isn't there to absorb your leaning, that parameter will drift quickly and one of the passive methods mentioned earlier will detect it and disconnect.

With that basic groundwork in place: The Ziehl is a passive monitoring device. It cannot actively "lean" on the grid to introduce a detectable fault when an islanding event occurs, it can merely react to a detectable event.

NRS097-2-1 requires that you must have at least one active measure in the system.

This is why a Victron Multiplus (not the Multigrid) combined with a Ziehl is NRS097-2-1 compliant. The inverter employs active measures. The combination of the two devices comply.

These Solar UPS devices don't have such a measure, and it is true that they don't need them because they are not designed to operate like that. But unfortunately that leaves the above-mentioned corner case open.

The Ziehl device is on the list however, and I am sure it isn't there ONLY for the sake of some blue inverters. I think it is also there for the sake of other types of generation, like Synchronous generators for example. So there is a possibility... something you could explore. Truth be told, I'm not particularly hopeful. On the other hand, it is true that if you install the Ziehl then you are literally 99% of the way there.

Edit: You could find an engineer who is willing to sign of anything that is on the list... show him the list... and then maybe?

Edited July 27, 20187 yr by plonkster

3 hours ago, Johandup said:

So it is applicable only to people who are sure they can make some money from such an exercise.

Nope, over a 1 year period, you must be a Net user, buy more back than you "sell" to them. Loophole if you ask me, that Cpt is using.

Why? Simple. The law says Municipalities can only buy electricity from Eskom, and only Eskom can sell electricity.

Till Zille or Lille takes that to the Con Court, they nearly did, SA law forbids them to buy power from anywhere else, and you from selling it.

FWIW, CoCT dwellers must now pay a connection fee, even on a pre-paid meter, as well as a connection fee for water.

I will pay that. For I think it is fair IF monies are used to maintain the local grid, and water infrastructure. Yes!

Have stated before that I will not go grid tied as long as I must pay the daily charge of R 11 odd rand to be connected to the grid.

However, if they charge me the standard grid connection fee, I will grid tie one day and feed back free electricity for CoCT to use as they see fit.

Why would I give anything free?

The system will be specced for my own use yet there will be some going back onto the grid, so why must I spend more money to stop that, that is why I say, give it free to them. 

Win win. 

EDIT: And IF I can make money, Con Court has change the law, boy, I will go bos! The entire roof will be full of panels.

Edited July 27, 20187 yr by Guest

14 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

FWIW, CoCT dwellers must now pay a connection fee, even on a pre-paid meter, as well as a connection fee for water.

Yup, beginning of July I noticed my electricity rate came down. Yesterday I found out why: R130.44 is now on the municipal bill, flat fee connection charge.

The other item that also showed up this month: fixed basic levy for my 20mm water connection: R100 flat.

Property tax also went up. I now pay more on property tax than I did for the entire bill 8 years ago. It is about 250% of what it was when I moved in here. I wish my own money grew that fast.

18 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

Have stated before that I will not go grid tied as long as I must pay the daily charge of R 11 odd rand to be connected to the grid.

I have long surmised that this is part of the long term trick. First you move people to a fixed connection fee. After some years, you can close the two connection fees so that the non-SSEG one is closer to the SSEG one. Suddenly it is not a R400 jump, but only a R200 jump for moving to SSEG.

Again, they absolutely are out to get us. No question about it. But is it justifiable? That is the question.

@gabriel another idea, from my solar electrician, BEEF, not the engineer:

I asked him the questions, as per email I posted before here, of what he thinks.
Note: He is not an engineer, they ask a engineer to sign off their work where applicable.

In Afrikaans ... Hi,

Antwoorde met sekerheid op bogenoemde (epos wat ek gestuur het) is soos coins in 'n wishing well gooi en hoop n genie spring uit. 

Die wishing well voorbeeld is net so van toepassing op persoon X wat die kans gevat het toe hy besluit het om 1/3de van prys te betaal vir n inverter vs. bekende/approved brands.

Die hartseer saak is dat regulasies die eindoms eienaar aanspreeklik hou en nie die installeerder nie wat die hoof oorsaak van die fly-by-night PV installer kopseer is in my opinie. 

Wat ek kan se is dat ons wel via automated (HAGAR) contactor/relay (brake before make compliant) die Axperts gebruik het as 'n dom UPS met handtekeninge van Pr.Eng/CoC en finale SSEG grid feedback/credit metering van CoCT. 

Let op dat dit beteken die Axpert het geen son input en kan ook nie via batterye son krag cycle nie. Batterye is dus net 'n dom backup vir critical loads. As eskom afgaan skakel contactor critical loads oor op Axpert/UPS. 

Die sonpanele word dan op 'n grid tied inverter gesit vir die huis se self gebruik. Deesdae kan mens baie goeie grid tied inverters in die 3kW range vir taamlik goedkoop kry wat die installasie ten volle SSEG compliant maak, met Axpert wat nog steeds inskop as Eskom afgaan.

 

In English, the short version:
Add a (HAGAR) contactor/relay (brake before make compliant) between Axpert and Eskom.
Buy a 3kw Grid tied inverter, move panels onto that, make it legal, connect it to DB board. After having changed your meter.
Now Axpert is a pure UPS, legally connected (as it still has a MPPT), and when Eskom goes off, grid tied inverter also goes off, and Axpert takes over.

1 hour ago, plonkster said:

You could find an engineer who is willing to sign of anything that is on the list... show him the list... and then maybe?

as i am not under coct jurisdiction but under saldanha bay [the largest in km2 in sa] i will call the person later today and get some clarity & give some feedback.

23 minutes ago, plonkster said:

Again, they absolutely are out to get us.

the big question is what are they going to do with us? reminds me of the dog barking and running after the bus, what is it going to do once it 'catches' the bus?

29 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

another idea, from my solar electrician, BEEF, not the engineer

i take cognizance but not necessarily agree as too much is opinion and conjecture

30 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

Add a (HAGAR) contactor/relay (brake before make compliant) between Axpert and Eskom.
Buy a 3kw Grid tied inverter, move panels onto that, make it legal, connect it to DB board. After having changed your meter.
Now Axpert is a pure UPS, legally connected (as it still has a MPPT), and when Eskom goes off, grid tied inverter also goes off, and Axpert takes over.

does not sound like a cost effective solution for the cape town axpert owner - he ends up paying about 5 years electricity tariff just to get compliant - there were comments on roi here a couple of months back, i take it that is not a popular topic any more

i still believe there is a cheaper and less complicated way out.... just have to find it

7 minutes ago, gabriel said:

i still believe there is a cheaper and less complicated way out.... just have to find it

Just make it off-grid. Simple as that really. Won't even cost a consulting fee, just a visit from an official to check on it. Just fit a compliant transfer switch after the Axpert so you can still fall back to the grid. Your BMV can control this transfer switch directly, so ICC no longer does that part. You lose AC charging capability, but many people prefer not to charge with AC in any case.

The challenge is finding a value for money transfer switch with fast enough switching. In other words, something similar to TTT's Phoenix setup, just aiming for faster so you don't need a UPS in the middle.

56 minutes ago, gabriel said:

does not sound like a cost effective solution for the cape town axpert owner - he ends up paying about 5 years electricity tariff just to get compliant - there were comments on roi here a couple of months back, i take it that is not a popular topic any more

Remember, that ROI was with batteries. Grid tied is the best way towards a ROI. 

I don't see how one needs a 5kw or bigger inverter for grid tied, it is all about the average load, peaks right back on Eskom, like you are cooking and geyser is on, 5kw say, 3kw of that comes from the grid tied inverter, 2kw from Eskom. now that makes sense. Rest of the day the house does not draw 3kw constantly. so plan how to use that optimally.

So, if you balance the act between:
1) inverter (+-R15-20k?) on existing panels, may need to rewire them for higher volts,
2) the connection fee per month (R350 odd pm),
3) the new bi-directional meter (R2k),
4) installation and paperwork (R5-7k) with engineers cost included,
5) sell back the surplus to CoCT, making sure after 12 months that you are a Net user i.e. bought more than you "sold".

Then those sums, if all the loads you can have on, is on daytime, it is very viable ROI.

I wanted a smaller 1.5kw grid tied inverter, or those ones you clip onto each panel (not approved) ... the 350 odd grid fees per month ... No, as the sums did not justify such a small setup.

And I do not see 3kw as needed by us. Phoenix works. ROI done and dusted. Batteries will last 8-10 years. When I have to replace them, THEN I will look again at grid tied. Till then, basta met die fooie.

2 hours ago, plonkster said:

Just make it off-grid. Simple as that really...

not doing any ac charging should extend the axperts life - less heat.

having a 5kv unit it means i have to up my panels from 8 to 10 to harvest more sun.

i have some dual wiring in the house, meaning two outlets in the kitchen are permanently on grid whilst the rest are battery/grid.

2 hours ago, plonkster said:

The challenge is finding a value for money transfer switch with fast enough switching

AND which is is approved?

now the jackpot question, if my axpert needs grid to be powered on, does that not influence its status as off grid?

 

3 hours ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

Have stated before that I will not go grid tied as long as I must pay the daily charge of R 11 odd rand to be connected to the grid.

I thought you only pay the daily charge if you want to sell electricity to the CoCT. 

6 minutes ago, Fuenkli said:

I thought you only pay the daily charge if you want to sell electricity to the CoCT. 

Indeed. When you apply for SSEG, you simply indicate that a limiter device will be used and request to stay on your present tariff. Then there is no additional daily charge. Since I have a self-consumption system, that is what I'm going to do.

16 minutes ago, Fuenkli said:

I thought you only pay the daily charge if you want to sell electricity to the CoCT. 

As per Plonksters reply, I just want to add that Matthijs in that Victron video of types of systems, gave me the idea to feed back = less complicated system.

And with it costing +-R350 odd, now having to pay R150 odd connection fee, the R200 odd difference is not a deal breaker, no, but I have a working system and I'm pretty sure there will be a change on the fees when more people register and start voicing their opinions. I'm betting on a drop in that fee, even dropping it completely, seeing as their SSEG daily fee has not changed in the last few years.

So I'll wait for that as I am pretty sure something is going to happen with it. And if I bet on the wrong side, and it increases ... 

My feeling is that CoCT wants more solar systems, wants to buy local IF it is legal to do so. National Government / NERSA, naa, not so much.

 

46 minutes ago, gabriel said:

i have some dual wiring in the house, meaning two outlets in the kitchen are permanently on grid

Another idea. If you have dual wiring, now that could work.

Part of the house on Eskom, the rest on Axpert. Axpert is then off-grid, i.e. no connection to Eskom ever.

Then like I did with my lights, your case house. Either on Eskom or on Axpert, via a manual changeover switch.

3 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

As per Plonksters reply, I just want to add that Matthijs in that Victron video of types of systems, gave me the idea to feed back = less complicated system.

You have to understand his comment in context too, to get the full picture. The context is not so much DC-coupled PV. Limiting export (aka feedback) when your PV is dc-connected is easy, the Multi is in full control of that. The problematic systems are those with PV-inverters (aka grid tied).

There are three kinds here, with various levels of support for limiting the export power. One of them does not support export limiting at all (eg microinverters), so I will only talk about the other two.

The best units support limiting in software. Fronius is the  king here. SMA can also do it, but in their sunspec implementation the power limit field (sunspec model 121) is write only, which is technically incorrect... and that causes some trouble. Both units can be combined with a modbus meter and do their own limiting. SolarEdge has no limiting support in their sunspec implementation, but also supports limiting via a meter and their own proprietary protocol. In any case, when talking about a Victron setup, you would prefer a Fronius here.

The second set of units support power control through frequency control. Because you cannot modify the grid frequency, the only way to throttle the PV  inverter is to disconnect from the grid (ie deliberately island) and then push the frequency up. This is not very stable and causes all sorts of trouble. Matthijs is saying in that video... that if there is no penalty for feeding back and the worst thing that happens to you is that you don't get paid... then give it away for free and buy some stability.

So while his comment definitely belies a larger philosophy, the context here was a bit more specific: It has to do with controlling PV inverters with frequency shifting because you don't want to give it away for free... and then you end up just causing more problems for yourself (and the support team).

14 minutes ago, plonkster said:

It has to do with controlling PV inverters with frequency shifting because you want to give it away for free...

Ok, help me quick, to colour in the picture I have in mind.

Does the new Multigrid, current / newer model, fit this picture I have in mind:
1) The one bypass circuit it has is connect to the DB board, feeding the house the solar power.
2) The other circuit it has feeds a few dedicated sockets, in case the the power goes off.
3) If there is surplus power, based on settings on the unit, it feeds back, or not, but no extra equipment needed?

I want to, using say a 3kw unit (one day), feed the house, so lets say it is pulling 6kw, the 3kw from the panels are happily shared on the house circuits overall, only selected circuits off batteries, if Eskom goes off.
 

47 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

Another idea.

i like

the other outlets are low power and can be on axpert, i will just need more batteries [ @Chris Hobson take note ] , so the money i save on permits and stuff can go into panels and batteries --- but still my question, the axpert needs grid to start up as i understand, whats up with that?

3 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

Does the new Multigrid, current / newer model, fit this picture I have in mind:
1) The one bypass circuit it has is connect to the DB board, feeding the house the solar power.
2) The other circuit it has feeds a few dedicated sockets, in case the the power goes off.
3) If there is surplus power, based on settings on the unit, it feeds back, or not, but no extra equipment needed?

I want to, using say a 3kw unit (one day), feed the house, so lets say it is pulling 6kw, the 3kw from the panels are happily shared on the house circuits overall, only selected circuits off batteries, if Eskom goes off.

So lets take the Multigrid unit I just got. It has a 50A transfer switch, and two outputs. My house has a 60A breaker, so I can very almost fit the entire house on it. Your proposed points 1 and 2 will work perfectly, provided you remain below this 50A total, and install a 50A breaker in line with the Multi.

The Multi's built in current sensor is on the INPUT of the unit, so power used by loads on both outputs are seen and compensated for. So let me use two examples then: If you have 2kw incoming PV and 2kw load in the house, it will adjust it so the INPUT is zero, that is the house will be fully powered from PV/batteries. If you use more than 3kw, then the difference comes from the grid. Remember also that when used in an ESS setup, the Multi is limited to 80% nominal, so 2400W is the max that will come from PV/batteries.

Now we get to point 3, and I left it for last for a reason... because usually extra stuff is required. You will need a control/monitoring unit such as a Venus-GX, a CCGX, or a Raspberry Pi that runs Venus. You do NOT need an external modbus energy meter, because in such a configuration (given you can fit it into 50A), all the loads are on the outputs and the Multi's own current sensor on the INPUT is sufficient. That also means you don't need the RS485 cable. I know you aready have a Venus-GX, so it would appear that you would not need additional hardware beyond what you have already.

The other half of point 3, re settings: You can tell it to feed back or not. If you tell it to feed back, it simply opens up the solar chargers to full power, and it applies a slight overvoltage to the batteries (couple hundred millivolts if you use the new DVCC system), which is then sucked off and fed into the grid. That is if you want to. If you don't want to feed in, then the solar chargers simply charge to their usual configured voltage, and the CCGX/Venus-GX adjusts the setpoint on the Multi to keep the INPUT around zero.

9 minutes ago, gabriel said:

the axpert needs grid to start up as i understand, whats up with that?

I'm sure that isn't true. Otherwise @Chris Hobson has a problem, he has to start his generator every time to get the inverter going again! :-)

Earlier models had a small power supply that allowed the unit to start from the grid, which is there so that if the batteries are really really dead... and the grid returns, it can wake up and start charging the batteries. Later models removed this small power supply to save costs, as I understand it. These models need battery to start up rather than grid. That is as I understand it.

The solar charger side is powered from the PV panels and only starts up when the sun shines. Again... as I understand it. Maybe I can pick up an Axpert cheap one of these days and take it apart... :-P

Edited July 27, 20187 yr by plonkster