9 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

SSEG that is connected to the grid through a reverse power flow blocking relay is not considered to be off-grid.

@plonkster the above complicates my future plans with ESS, no?

Seeing as the Phoenix is replace with a Multiplus, and Multiplus is connected to the grid.

9 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

@plonkster the above complicates my future plans with ESS, no?

Seeing as the Phoenix is replace with a Multiplus, and Multiplus is connected to the grid.

In theory yes. In practice... how often do you expect someone to come around and check if the equipment inside is still the same? PV panels they can monitor with aerial photography, but swapping a phoenix with a Multi doesn't even jump out visually unless you know these units very well.

Edited July 18, 20187 yr by plonkster

10 minutes ago, plonkster said:

In theory yes. In practice

The person singing off will want to note down a serial number of the device. I would.

But I hear ya.

Just for me, thinking about a relay that is closed while Eskom is on, open when off, between the wall plug and Multi.

For that is very close to home, like right in my house, that the problem could be "felt". 

Don't like it so much when I am bare feet on the tiles, connecting cables to the back of my server, and get that tingling feeling when you touch metal. Been like that for years, even on UPS'es and no solar system present.

I quote: Failure to obtain this consent constitutes an offence which could lead to a fine and/or imprisonment in terms of the City of Cape Town Electricity Supply By-Law 2010 ...

 

Requiremenst for Samll-Scale Embedded Generation.pdf

17 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

get that tingling feeling when you touch metal

Happens when you lose earth and there's lots of noisy equipment creating eddy currents. I have a couple of multi-plug adapters that does that. You touch something and it's like YIKES. Again last night, got a cool 110V off the handles of a power supply unit on the bench. Wiggled the plug a bit and it went away.

(I really should throw away that multiplug adapter).

16 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

Failure to obtain this consent

That' what the Grace period is about, I assume. It's like tax amnesty, declare your status and become compliant. If you didn't obtain this consent before, we'll give you until Feb 2019 to fix it.

Sorry for the interference, just wanted to say that this approach is same all over the world The current establishment will start with an off-grid PV evidence just to catch-up that renewable energy targets and the next government will introduce a solar tax and grid fees. Because once there's a central evidence of something created, taxing it is the next logical step.

I've heard that Spain implemented a sun tax years ago: https://www.renewableenergyworld.com/articles/2015/10/spain-approves-sun-tax-discriminates-against-solar-pv.html

The new law requires self-consumption PV system owners to pay the same grid fees that all electricity consumers in Spain pay, plus a so-called 'sun tax'. Specifically, said UNEF, a self-consumption PV owner "will pay a 'sun tax' for the whole power [capacity] installed (the power that you contracted to your electricity company, plus the power from your PV installation) and also another [second] 'sun tax' for the electricity that you generate and self-consume from your own PV installation (this applies to installations larger than 10 kW)."

Luckilly, the European Union came with legislation that some of the above fees are unacceptable: https://www.energia16.com/653637/?lang=en

Well, I wonder how far will this get in SA...

 

2 minutes ago, Youda said:

Sorry for the interference,  ...

What interference? You probably have shown us the future of SA, i.e. following in the steps of Spain.

Sun tax is perfect for politicians, sun taxing the wealthy to pay for the poor household's electricity. Have no problem giving it for free to them, if I over generate.

But being on Government level, someone is going to benefit, and it is not the poor nor the small generator. Too many of us to not tax us.

Yet, I know CoCT at one stage was going to court to get the law changed so that they can buy from anywhere, like even home systems. But I think that has stalled.

Interesting words they use here - 'does not believe' ... so that can change ... :
Although the electricity distribution industry is highly regulated, SSEGs have not yet been adequately covered in national policy or legislation. In this void, the City has developed policies and practices which it believes are consistent with broader national policy. In particular, the City does not believe it is allowed to purchase electricity at a greater cost than it would have paid Eskom for the generated electricity. ( TTT says that is fair) The City also does not believe customers are permitted by national legislation to sell electricity to the City in excess of what they purchase from the City over any consecutive 12-month period. Customers wishing to install an SSEG and feed power back onto the utility grid are required to move onto the SSEG tariff, which includes a daily service charge in order to cover the operating costs of the utility network.

I think they are watching the situation with Eskom, and like the water, when pushed, they may go to court, I hope.

5 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

following in the steps of Spain

I didn't look into the Spain situation recently, but as I recall the target was simply to make people pay for their grid connection. Much like in Cape Town, some people stopped paying for the grid because they were self-sufficient from solar, but still kept the grid connection as backup. I may be wrong, that is to say, I may have to look into this again.

1st feedback from a CoCT approved installer. He needs to speak to Victron ito my installation.

What also came out, he sent me a list of approved inverters. Without them installed, he cannot help.

Documentation seems to say if you do this, connect, you need a pre-paid meter installed.
Customers drawing less than 100 A with credit meters will be required to have their credit meter replaced with a prepayment meter at the City’s cost.

2 hours ago, SilverNodashi said:

Does anyone know what this registration cost, for a typical axpert installation? 

Don't know of Axpert, I supposed it is a UPS?

But off-grid ... which is supposed to be simpler ... 1st quote in:

We have received your inquiry. Certainly we can assist you. 

To submit application form incl. admin work, signed off certificates etc. we have a fix rate for off grid systems excl bi- directional meter installation.  

Fix rate R 9.750,00 

Thank you very much.

 

21 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

Don't know of Axpert, I supposed it is a UPS?

But off-grid ... which is supposed to be simpler ... 1st quote in:

We have received your inquiry. Certainly we can assist you. 

To submit application form incl. admin work, signed off certificates etc. we have a fix rate for off grid systems excl bi- directional meter installation.  

Fix rate R 9.750,00 

Thank you very much.

 

Really?? They're really milking the cow now. Who was that? I think I should change careers. R10k/hour is not bad, not bad at all.

Well what about a UPS in  a server room or as back up power to run a TV or what ever. Not quite off grid but it still makes power when Eskom is not avaliable .

Well what about a UPS in  a server room or as back up power to run a TV or what ever. Not quite off grid but it still makes power when Eskom is not avaliable .

2 minutes ago, SilverNodashi said:

Really?? They're really milking the cow now. Who was that? I think I should change careers. R10k/hour is not bad, not bad at all.

And I bet you, whomever does it, will insist on changes, costing even more for now you are committed.

Have emailed that Co. back, with more detailed specifications of what I required, lets see what comes back.

Have about 5 other emails still outstanding.

Got an idea to go to out go-to electrician, will see if he can help. Like you say, it is a hours work, maybe some alterations, so give him tripple that, 3 hours and parts.

Nowhere anywhere close to R10k. 

1 minute ago, seant said:

Well what about a UPS in  a server room or as back up power to run a TV or what ever. Not quite off grid but it still makes power when Eskom is not avaliable .

Seems to me the moment you attach solar panels, the wheels come off.

Normally, with a server room, it was signed off by an electrician.

For home use, plug into the wall UPS, that I supposed is on a pre-approved standard to meet the requirements.

Running a big generator connected to the building DB, has to be approved. I suppose the installer deals with that.

But what about a small portable generator connected to the house? Problem again.

CoCT makes clear, it is all about the safety ... and I say, yes, that's fair ... for now. :-) 

@plonkster am I reading this right?

Beaker is 80amps, house is single phase, so I can have a max of 4600VA generation?

** Generation Capacity refers to the total output capacity of the generator.
For PV systems in particular, this refers to the maximum output of the inverter as limited either by hardware, or by software settings. The system designer/installer will provide guidance here.

2 hours ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

Fix rate R 9.750,00 

I got a quote for 5k on this side. But I'm getting a favour done because we work together sometimes. This particular installer does not want to work on third-party installed systems. This is what I remember: That's what a Pr.Eng charges for the visit. If you look at the forms, it's not just an hour, it will likely take about half a day when you add in travel.

Edited July 18, 20187 yr by plonkster

1 hour ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

Breaker is 80amps, house is single phase, so I can have a max of 4600VA generation?

It seems you have indeed retained the skill of reading tables :-P

It agrees with what I remember, that single phase houses are limited to 3.5kw, clearly based on the average 60A breaker I've seen in most houses.

But guys, now I need to clean this thing up a bit. Like a mechanic's car is always half-broken, there're always rough edges on the PV-tech's system. Especially mine which doubles as test bed some days.

20 minutes ago, plonkster said:

... does not want to work on third-party installed ...

I get that 100%. And if I was him, probably would do the same.

 

7 minutes ago, plonkster said:

Like a mechanic's car is always half-broken, there're always rough edges on the PV-tech's system.

Therein lies all the 1000+ installations just on this forums conundrum. We can do it, yes we can, so we did it ... now we need papers.

My case, it is a blerrie UPS with panels so all I want is the form attached, completed. It is not THAT complicated? I would probably fill in the form ... saves them some time.

 

7 minutes ago, plonkster said:

It seems you have indeed retained the skill of reading tables :-P

Was just making sure, absolutely sure, for I could have sworn that is not possible!

See, I swear I have read a LOT about 2 x 5kva systems on single phase, right here in SA, no? 

Man, this is way more serious than I initially thought. 

 

Just want my form completed!

 

Declaration for off-grid SSEG.pdf

Edited July 18, 20187 yr by Guest

2 hours ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

@plonkster am I reading this right?

Beaker is 80amps, house is single phase, so I can have a max of 4600VA generation?

** Generation Capacity refers to the total output capacity of the generator.
For PV systems in particular, this refers to the maximum output of the inverter as limited either by hardware, or by software settings. The system designer/installer will provide guidance here.

I wonder how they got to those figures. 80A should carry about 19200VA.

42 minutes ago, SilverNodashi said:

I wonder how they got to those figures. 80A should carry about 19200VA.

It's not based purely on the volts multiplied by the amps. There are other factors involved which I don't understand yet, that means the cable doesn't necessarily carry the same current in the other direction. Some of that current is also consumed on your end, so by injecting it on the other side of your own 80A breaker you raise your site-capacity from 18kw to 28kw (if we assume 10kw). I half suspect this is to protect people against themselves. Otherwise you get situations like that one I saw up North where someone paralleled 3 x 15kva units on a single-phase house...

Edited to add: I recall a case of someone with two 5KVA Axperts who got into trouble because it allegedly exceeded the 3.5kw allowed capacity. For a unit that is not grid-interactive, you are not overloading any local wiring. When in inverter mode (total capacity 10kw), the grid is disconnected, so there is no additive effect going on.

Edited July 18, 20187 yr by plonkster

2 hours ago, plonkster said:

It's not based purely on the volts multiplied by the amps. There are other factors involved which I don't understand yet, that means the cable doesn't necessarily carry the same current in the other direction. Some of that current is also consumed on your end, so by injecting it on the other side of your own 80A breaker you raise your site-capacity from 18kw to 28kw (if we assume 10kw). I half suspect this is to protect people against themselves. Otherwise you get situations like that one I saw up North where someone paralleled 3 x 15kva units on a single-phase house...

Edited to add: I recall a case of someone with two 5KVA Axperts who got into trouble because it allegedly exceeded the 3.5kw allowed capacity. For a unit that is not grid-interactive, you are not overloading any local wiring. When in inverter mode (total capacity 10kw), the grid is disconnected, so there is no additive effect going on.

Please explain? This doesn't make any sense to me at all. With something like an Axpert, this isn't possible. Or, rather, I cannot see how it would be possible. 

With a Grid-tied unit, you cannot get more ampere than it can generate, and even if the Grid-side has an 80A breaker, the house would only consume what it needs. 

28 minutes ago, SilverNodashi said:

With something like an Axpert, this isn't possible.

Correct. So in that particular case that I remember, where the home owner was told that was illegal, in that case the officials were wrong. At least technically speaking.

30 minutes ago, SilverNodashi said:

With a Grid-tied unit, you cannot get more ampere than it can generate, and even if the Grid-side has an 80A breaker, the house would only consume what it needs. 

Hypothetical situation. Say you have a 10kva GTI running full tilt, that's an extra 40 amps. Let's say you have a 40A breaker on that line. Your main breaker is 80 amps. This means there is now a total capacity on the site of 120 amps, without either of the breakers tripping. I'm not sure if that is the reason, it was just one reason I thought of. Give me time though, this is intriguing enough to spend some time on.

OK, I found something, and this makes some sense. It has to do simply with the fact that the distribution network was designed to be uni-directional. If you think about the good old iron transformer you might have salvaged out of an old radio in high school, and then you ran it in reverse and had competitions seeing who could hold on longest... (well, we did... used to start with a big circle and the losers got kicked out making the circle smaller until there was just one guy trying to be Rambo). In any case, you may remember that the transformer didn't really work that well in reverse. Same thing on the distribution network: They are not designed to be back-fed, so they can only handle a lower power level.

Of course the power you feed in does not actually go up the chain through the transformer, not usually. It will more likely be used by other houses in your street that are on the same phase. But how many houses are there in YOUR street? On your phase? How do you make a rule that applies to all situations?

So simply, this rule is just the simplest safe point that gives you automatic approval. You can do more, but then you got to involve the planning department of the distribution company.

Edited July 18, 20187 yr by plonkster

1 minute ago, plonkster said:

... on the site of 120 amps ... 

Was typing along the exact same lines. Must be to do with the grid in the street / suburb.

2 minutes ago, plonkster said:

... where the home owner was told that was illegal, ...

Not ruling out "officials" shortsightedness, another angle is the DB breaker is below the max the inverters can push?

I guess they drew the specs according to grid tied inverters, and yet due to Eskom and Voltronic, the majority became "UPS's" with solar panels connected to them?

So how does one cater for them?
As in users has 4 panels, winter comes, adds 4 more, next year bonus, get 8 more and more inverters. It is as easy as that.

However, in the process the original wiring and DB design is forgotten, inverters in parallel hitting 120amps on a 80amps design.

2 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

However, in the process the original wiring and DB design is forgotten, inverters in parallel hitting 120amps on a 80amps design.

In terms of a modern DB I cannot really see how this could easily happen. You may have 120 amps total available now, but that is on the busbar at the top of that long row of breakers that feed your lights and plug connections. It still has to pass through each individual breaker, which will be limited to 20A, 10A, and so on. It is actually not possible to overload any part of the installation, as presumably both are sized for the current they will carry. The only bit that has to handle the whole 120A is that busbar at the top of your DB that feeds the breakers.

Now I've seen distribution boards where this is an actual copper busbar, and then I've seen the kind looped with copper wire. One has to consider Kirchoff here, if you daisy-chain them from left to right, and you have 10 breakers of 20A each, then that first link has to be capable of handling 200A. Now if you know the main breaker is rated 60A (as in my house) or 80A (as in your house), then you can save money by not rating this to 200A. And you might be sorry later. I'm still not convinced this is the main reason, just an educated guess.

You'd be amazed how contractors get this wrong. See attached picture by a sparkie friend of mine. Do you see it? Top middle, looks like two breakers chained together with a wire that's probably rated no more than 10A or 15A. Now look at the breaker ratings...