Hello all, I wish everyone all the best for 2024!

 

Firstly, what a great forum - kudos! I've learned so much from here but have reached the limits of my knowledge so I'm hoping for some help as doubts are creeping in.

 

I'm having ongoing issues with my solar company since they installed my system in April 23. I have tried researching everything but I am now getting a little confused so apologies in advance for the 'newbie, answered a 1000 times questions' but the solar company and I have multiple differences of opinions regarding my installed system/setup and it's relative performance - they're pertaining to be experts and at every turn just state I'm wrong, so I am doubting my thoughts - again I'm a newbie, so they may have a point.

 

Note: last week I had a replacement inverter installed which would apparently resolve all of our issues, as after over 8 months they still could not get previous inverter (Ingecon 6KTL) to work with my batteries BMS. They originally told me I had to wait for a firmware update to the Ingecon invertor which they are yet to write. My old inverter was installed with my current batteries but setup as lead acid with manual settings - which did not work at all well to say the least! Multiple evenings with no power, no generator start, the inverter would not accept charge if I manually started the generator etc - I could go on.

 

My System as it is now and a bit of background:

 

x12 Jinko 550W panels installed in 2 strings

x1 Deye SUN 8K SG01LP1-EU inverter

x3 Turbo Energy dual 5.1KWh 48V Lithium batteries (currently I have only 2 batteries installed as they have removed one for 'testing' as they still cannot get the batteries to communicate even with the replacement inverter, so suggested the batteries are faulty. Every time they selected the lithium battery setting on the new inverter the batteries would go into fault)

x1 Genergy Creta-Sol 7500W back-up generator

 

I had suggested to them (even when they were having communication issues with the first inverter installation) that the batteries were not physically set-up/addressed correctly via the addressing dial and dip switches on the front of the batteries - they told me I was wrong. They told me this again after installing a new inverter and leaving with my 'faulty battery' last week and have set our system up as lead acid once again (which ran out of power in the first night). Being frustrated with the new system not working I'd had enough and thought I'd look at it myself armed with respective manuals. Addressing the batteries as per the manual (which clearly they have not read) and applying the correct dip switch settings has cleared the battery fault when selecting the lithium setting on the inverter and things are now much better, however I have further issues, which is where I'm hoping this forum can give impartial advice on.

 

Questions with the physical installation which I think to be wrong which they disagree with.

 

As the new inverter could not be installed in the same place as the old unit due to its larger size, they have drilled individual holes in the side of the metal rack for each battery cable and the BMS cable and have now routed them over the top of the generator (not touching) as this was the only way the battery cables would reach the inverter. Not only does this look unprofessional but I'm concerned about them going over the generator (heat/vibration) also they have not used any grommets or taken off any of the sharp metal burrs caused when drilling and the holes are quite tight to the cable. I told them they could have routed the cables normally/properly if they installed the breaker/fuse which the inverter manual suggests needs to be installed. I think this needs changing and is potentially dangerous! They say the install is fine and they will not rectify.

 

I have requested they follow the inverters installation manual precisely, they will not as they say the inverter manual is wrong - Could I have your opinions please?

 

Issues with what the inverter installation manual states and what They say.

 

250A DC breaker/fuse to be installed between the battery and inverter - They say that's wrong and connected the batteries directly with the inverter and routed as above, they will not fit anything between the 2.

 

63A AC breaker for the load circuit - They say that's wrong and it needs to be 43A AC which is what they have installed.

 

When in off grid mode the inverters N and Earth must be bonded together - They say that's wrong as it is done internally, they will not bond them.

 

I have my theories but I would like to know which you suggest is correct, the manual or the installation company?

 

Battery issues now the BMS seems to be connected OK but not necessarily functioning correctly. The batteries have a separate application which confirms the SOC/speed of depletion numbers below.

 

Again I now only have 2 of the batteries installed on the system. Total Rating 10.2KWh at 48V. I assume therefore a usable capacity of approximately 8KWh. Assuming 8000W is 100% SOC I can approximate a figure of 80W per 1% of shown SOC? (8000/100 = 80) so roughly per 80Wh of use should reduce the SOC by approx. 1%?

 

The batteries seem to be discharging at an alarming high rate, am I missing something?

 

Yesterday morning I had a 2.5KW load (confirmed on inverter screen/app/battery app) timed for exactly an hour. assuming I used approx. 2500W+/- or 2.5KWh the SOC should have reduced by approx. 30-35% it reduced by 51% or approx. 4KWh?

 

Note: When doing the above test the panels were also putting a minimum of 400W (At test start) and 900W (At test end) into the system. Meaning the actual battery load was somewhere between 2.1KW and 1.6KW and not the full 2.5KW.

 

This morning I boiled a kettle of water. The kettle is rated between 2KW and 2.3KW  The Apps were showing a total load of 2.3KW when it was in use. The kettle boiled for exactly 4 minutes 30 secs and the SOC reduced by 7%

 

By my maths, which honestly is not my strongest suit, somethings wrong:

 

(Total Watts Used in 1hour/60 minutes = Watts per minute) then (Watts per minute*minutes used = Total Watts used in X minutes) 

 

So this mornings kettle boil to me looks like this:

2300/60*4.5 = 172.5W

 

Yet is reduced the SOC by 7% of 10.3KWh 48V batteries with an assumed usable capacity of 8KWh surely that cannot be right?

 

I have a 3.5KW air con unit which at the above consumption rate would deplete the batteries in around an hour

 

My possibly ignorant understanding of battery use is if you have 10KWh storage this could power a 2KW unit for 5 hours or a 5KW unit for 2 hours - am I wrong? 

 

When I used the water heater yesterday I was monitoring the SOC on the batteries application and they were reporting the SOC reduction so if any error exists it cannot be between the inverter and batteries, it must be on the batteries themselves, or am I completely wrong with my assumptions?.

 

Is there a way I can check the batteries for total capacity?

 

Additionally the application you get with the Deye inverter is Solarman and it's not great in my opinion. I have read that Solar Assistant is what a lot of people use for monitoring these inverters, has anyone got ideas which would be the way to go? I do actually have a spare Raspi 3B.

 

Apologies for the lengthy post but I'm not a electrical engineer and anytime I ask questions to my solar company they just tell me I'm wrong or start doing calculations which go above my head and try to baffle me with science. This is why I am hoping I could get some impartial and expert advice.

 

Many many thanks in advance!!

 

Mike

Shuuu... just from reading I can tell there are a number of things wrong

There definitely should have a fuse / breaker between the batteries and inverter

Sunsynk / Deye doesn't have an automatic internal N-E bond like other inverters - the manual suggests using a contactor to do this

Could you also share pics off the install itself as well as the inverter battery settings screen - its possible that only 1 battery is being seen by the inverter

@Leshen @GreenFields @TaliaB please chime in here as well

7 hours ago, Mikey T said:

63A AC breaker for the load circuit - They say that's wrong and it needs to be 43A AC which is what they have installed.

Breaker is normally there to protect the cable, I'm not sure how much power the 8kW Deye can pass through, but the breaker installed should ensure that the cable is protected if the load is more than the cable is specced to handle, even if the inverter can pass though more power, the CB should trip to protect the cable... so presumably they installed a cable that calls for a 43A breaker...

The SOC is reported by the battery as far as I know, so if the inverter reports 50% SOC, this is actually something that the battery provides to the inverter...

 

Many thanks Mzezman! I share your multiple problem theory!

I have attached some images for you, not sure if these are exactly what you're looking for. Some are pictures of the inverter screen, others show the described cable routing issue and the others which you may not have seen are from the Turbo Energy App which I think are specific to these batteries? I'm having to try multiple posts due to the 3mb limit

 

 

8 minutes ago, Mikey T said:

I would start to get this install safe before doing anything else, this is appallingly no grommets no battery disconnect with all that lithium power is outright dangerous. Who is this installer!!!!!

 

Edited January 14, 20242 yr by TaliaB

I will tell them to install a breaker/fuse between the batteries and inverter. The manual states a 250A DC breaker - is this correct and have you any recommendations?

I'm pretty sure you'll share my thoughts regarding how they have left the battery cables, if they install them with a breaker then the cables can actually be routed better. The installed battery cables are 2AWG at 1.5 meters

Thanks again for your help, it's hugely appreciated!!

 

 

Thanks TaliaB, that's exactly what I thought. Again this was done when the replacement inverter was installed last week. In addition to this, whilst he completed this cable rerouting he removed the Earth connection to the rack itself (no I'm not joking) and this was not refitted. The batteries were earthed to one another and then to the rack, but the rack was not earthed at all. As soon as I saw this I installed an Earth.

A problem I haven't mentioned previously (I could go on and on about this company) is when they originally installed our system in April 23 they removed our connection to the mains grid. For whatever reason we could not get permissions to feedback to the grid and we wanted to be completely self sufficient, so we're off-grid. In doing so, they removed the Earth completely, a fact we only found out in December when we had problems with our washing machine and the Bosch engineer pointed straight to a floating Neutral and left stating dangerous electrics. We had 100V+ on Live and Neutral. 

Again, thanks so much for your help!!

38 minutes ago, Kalahari Meerkat said:

Breaker is normally there to protect the cable, I'm not sure how much power the 8kW Deye can pass through, but the breaker installed should ensure that the cable is protected if the load is more than the cable is specced to handle, even if the inverter can pass though more power, the CB should trip to protect the cable... so presumably they installed a cable that calls for a 43A breaker...

The SOC is reported by the battery as far as I know, so if the inverter reports 50% SOC, this is actually something that the battery provides to the inverter...

 

Thanks Kalahari Meerkat (great name by the way) my understanding is that they upgraded the AC cable when they replaced the inverter as the respective AC output changed from 6KW to 8KW. Initially my system was wired with 12AWG and this was replaced to 10AWG when the inverters were changed. The inverter manual does specify 10AWG cable along with installing a 63Amp breaker? This is were the solar company says the manual is incorrect and I cannot comment as I haven't a clue. 

I'm also thinking the SOC is specified by the batteries as it shows on their own App separate to the inverter. Given the discharge rate is way off (if I'm correct in my initial post) if this is supplied by the batteries I can only conclude the batteries are not reporting correctly/faulty (although they pass self diagnosis checks) or as someone else suggests the inverter/BMS is only utilising/communicating with one battery?

 

Thanks for your help!!

35 minutes ago, Mikey T said:

The installed battery cables are 2AWG at 1.5 meters

I normally use 1AWG  50mm² battery cable with 8kw inverters especially on 2.5 meter lengths with 250A fuse disconnect on pos and neg( 2 fuse disconnect) In which province do you stay?

19 minutes ago, Mikey T said:

they removed our connection to the mains grid.

Did they issue you a coc in April 23?

7 minutes ago, Mikey T said:

10AWG cable along with installing a 63Amp breaker?

10AWG= 6mm² that is incorrect for a 63A mcb the correct wire size to use is 6AWG or 16mm² wire it will be ok to use 8AWG or 10mm² for short distances.

13 minutes ago, Mikey T said:

This is were the solar company says the manual is incorrect and I cannot comment as I haven't a clue

So what wire size did they use in conjunction with the 63A mcb?

5 minutes ago, TaliaB said:

I normally use 1AWG  50mm² battery cable with 8kw inverters especially on 2.5 meter lengths with 250A fuse disconnect on pos and neg( 2 fuse disconnect) In which province do you stay?

Did they issue you a coc in April 23?

Thanks again TaliaB!

The 2AWG 35mm cable is what the battery supplier suggests and supplies with the batteries. There is an interesting passage on top of page 7 within the attached battery manual which states;

"NOTE: Each power cord can carry a maximum of 200 A, so every two batteries would need to connect a new cable to the inverter. However, if the inverter is 5 kW only with one cable it would be enough to be at the limit of the maximum current recommended."

I told the solar company that in my opinion given we have an 8KW inverter with 3 batteries this means I should have 2 cables fitted to the from the batteries to the inverter, they just told me this isn't possible and I was wrong again?

Apologies I forgot to answer your previous question.

The Solar Companies name is Solar Components Valencia. This system is located in Murcia.

They did supply me with some conformity paperwork but given they removed the Earth completely on the original install and left us with a floating Neutral I'm not sure what it's worth?

Battery Manual.pdf

6 minutes ago, TaliaB said:

10AWG= 6mm² that is incorrect for a 63A mcb the correct wire size to use is 6AWG or 16mm² wire it will be ok to use 8AWG or 10mm² for short distances.

So what wire size did they use in conjunction with the 63A mcb?

I will check tomorrow but they suggested installing 10AWG with the replacement inverter along with a 43A breaker - the old breaker was 40A

The 63A breaker is what the Deye installation manual suggests is required, they have installed a 43A breaker

Thanks!

6 minutes ago, Mikey T said:

They did supply me with some conformity paperwork but given they removed the Earth completely on the original install and left us with a floating Neutral I'm not sure what it's worth?

Did they supply you with this document attached and a test report?

I'll have to check but I'm pretty sure they did not.

47 minutes ago, Mikey T said:

upgraded the AC cable when they replaced the inverter as the respective AC output changed from 6KW to 8KW. Initially my system was wired with 12AWG and this was replaced to 10AWG

I don't know the 'Merkin Wire Gauge values, but either way, the Deye/Sunsynk 5/8/12/whatever inverters can provide more than their rated power at their essential output by allowing power from the grid/input side to pass straight through to the essential side, so if the cowboys that did your install are the usual illiterate bunch, then they would not be aware of this and only be catering for the rated power of the inverter on its output, which is wrong...

If you look at the specs here then you will see that it can pass through 50A, not sure if that is total on the essential side or in addition to its own 8kW which is app. 33A and would imply either 50A or 83A possibly available on the essential side of the inverter, so 43A is definitely somewhat on the low end...

24 minutes ago, Mikey T said:

I'll have to check but I'm pretty sure they did not.

Ok so you are located in Spain then you will have diffrent documentation to SA. But it still stands bad and dangerous workmanship no matter where you are the risks are the same.

29 minutes ago, Kalahari Meerkat said:

I don't know the 'Merkin Wire Gauge values, but either way, the Deye/Sunsynk 5/8/12/whatever inverters can provide more than their rated power at their essential output by allowing power from the grid/input side to pass straight through to the essential side, so if the cowboys that did your install are the usual illiterate bunch, then they would not be aware of this and only be catering for the rated power of the inverter on its output, which is wrong...

If you look at the specs here then you will see that it can pass through 50A, not sure if that is total on the essential side or in addition to its own 8kW which is app. 33A and would imply either 50A or 83A possibly available on the essential side of the inverter, so 43A is definitely somewhat on the low end...

Thanks! given our system should never have pass through I'm only really concerned with how the system will work for us in an 'off-grid' capacity. But given what you're saying this is probably the reason Deye suggest installing a 63A AC breaker?. I suppose if you're being generous then you could say the solar company evaluated this and installed a breaker for our particular system, if you're being less generous you could say a broken clock is correct twice a day!

36 minutes ago, TaliaB said:

Ok so you are located in Spain then you will have diffrent documentation to SA. But it still stands bad and dangerous workmanship no matter where you are the risks are the same.

I'm glad you agree and it's not just me. I would be using grommets even if it were LV signal or even audio cables - potentially lethal level high voltage cables should never be installed like this!

 

I have just received a WhatsApp message from the solar company stating that they want to come out tomorrow to reinstall the 'faulty battery' they removed for testing - which clearly wasn't faulty. This could be construed as good news, however I really want them to resolve everything with the install at the same time as refitting the battery, I.E. the breakers AC & DC and rerouting of the battery cables/installation of DC breaker etc and also things such as replacing the breaker box which I consider to also be left in a dangerous state - this is because the inverter had to be moved (picture attached)  - please could I have your thoughts as they state they will not replace this either.

In addition to actually get the system working I would like them to,

Install the DC breaker between the batteries and inverter - they say is not required.

Potentially install second battery cabling (given the excerpt from the battery manual quoted above) - please advise whether you consider this is required.

Replace the breaker box - as shown in the images, they are refusing to replace this. They suggest just taping or placing something on the top, I feel this is a safety issue.

They are 2 hours drive away from us and I fear if I allow them to install the battery then none of the above will get resolved as obviously they have already been fully paid for the system and are refusing to resolve anything highlighted within this post as I am wrong to suggest they should!

Please could I have your thoughts and apologies for the timings!

Good morning all.

I have just been contacted by the solar company regarding them rectifying the installation. They have now agreed that they will change the fuse box as a good-will gesture but insist that I should be charged for this as 'it's not their problem' the holes are there because they had to change the inverter (Yes but you specified a system you could not get to work?!)

They are absolutely refusing to do anything with the battery cables. I have told them about the doubling up of the cables in the battery manufacturers manual, and the fact the a breaker/fuse is clearly specified in the Deye Inverter manual, confirmed as required by Deye technical help and this fine forum.

He has essentially replied that the DC breaker isn't in the battery manual so it's not required(?) and I do not know what I am talking about. We are engineers and the doubling up of the battery cables is not required and if you want to have this done then they will do this and charge you.

When I asked him how they plan on resolving the battery cable length issue if he is unwilling to install a breaker/fuse his response was astonishing (to me at least)

You need to move the battery rack (this would essentially mean I have to remove a workbench)

I told him that they cables cannot be left like they are as they're extremely dangerous, he replied (I am not making this up)

They are only dangerous if you are moving or touching the cables. Left as alone they are not at dangerous

So my only options here is to remove a workbench/reconfigure my garage, keep the extremely dangerous way in which the batteries are installed, pay them to rectify correctly?

When I asked him if I were to pay for the additional battery cables how would he install them, would this mean more holes drilled into the side of the rack he has gone quiet. 

I will update as soon as I know anything else. In the meantime if you have any input I'd be extremely appreciative!

Many thanks