Jump to content

Pylontech US3000 shuts down when connected to Victron Multiplus


PJJ

Recommended Posts

Hello guys

I don't know if I am doing something wrong that should be obvious or what? Maybe @plonkster can instantly point me to solution who knows :P

Ok, so yesterday we finished a install at my bosses home consisting of the following:

-Victron Multiplus 5000VA

-Victron 250/70 MPPT

-Venus GX

-Pylontech US3000

And upon startup:

I flipped on the power switch on the Pylon and then pressed the start button, then suddenly the battery went "klonk" and the alarm status red just stayed red, I then started some basic troubleshooting and I couldn't find anything obvious, but I then disconnected only the Multi, and tried again, and boom, the battery starts up, and the Venus and the SSC where still functioning.

But the moment I reconnect the Multi again, "klonk" goes the battery and back into alarm state we go?

Thanks guys I would appreciate any help!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, cpbotha said:

Total newb here, but did you remember to plug a VE.Can terminator into the second VE.Can port of the Venus GX?

(I remember reading the docs https://www.victronenergy.com/live/battery_compatibility:pylontech_phantom yesterday, and specifically that the battery would turn itself off without the VE.Can terminator.)

Yup, I did plug in the terminator.

I am starting to wonder, if its not perhaps a firmware issue, I will start on Monday by updating the Venus, and see if that makes a difference, i should also just confirm the firmware version  the multi is on, but I remember it being 4xx, but here is the catch, if the battery shuts down because of old firmware on the multi, how on earth am I supposed to power up the multi to complete the software updates? Well I guess I could just get 4 small 12V gate/alarm 7Ah batteries and I will have enough power to startup the multi and update it if needed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, PJJ said:

Well I guess I could just get 4 small 12V gate/alarm 7Ah batteries and I will have enough power to startup the multi and update it if needed.

I've done that before on inverters and MPPT's to get them to start up - obviously no Eskom nor panels connected.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2019/01/13 at 1:47 PM, plonkster said:

Maybe the high current drawn when you connect the Multi the first time (no precharge on the caps) causes the battery to think there is a short circuit. It's a guess... I have never seen anything like it.

Well it turned out not to be the cap theory.

I started the day out by updating the firmware of every device : Multi, SCC and Venus.

Still no luck.

And then I randomly had a thought, can I power the Venus from a separate DC power source to make sure its running when I connect the Multi?

And low and behold, with the Venus running from a 12V battery I started up the US3000 and no problems whatsoever!

 

So if ever you see someone complain about the same issue, tell them the Venus first needs to be booted up before connecting the Multi, otherwise the Pylontech battery disconnects. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

48 minutes ago, PJJ said:

So if ever you see someone complain about the same issue, tell them the Venus first needs to be booted up before connecting the Multi, otherwise the Pylontech battery disconnects. 

That makes no sense and I've never had such an issue ever.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, plonkster said:

That makes no sense and I've never had such an issue ever.

I can make a short video clip of the system behavior if you want?

But yeah, in my case if the Venus isn't powered up before the rest of the system, the Pylon goes into alarm state, if you flip the switch on the pylon to on, press the start button, and then quickly turn it off again with the switch and press start again (The entire loop takes around 2 secs I think?) the Venus doesn't power off I think it still has some power left in caps and then it also works. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That is really strange, since there is nothing being sent TO the pylontech in terms of communication. Would be great if one could find out what alarm the pylon is raising.

Does it happen also if you unplug the comms cable? Can you trick it in the same way? Are you using the right cable?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, plonkster said:

Does it happen also if you unplug the comms cable? Can you trick it in the same way? Are you using the right cable?

When I go to the install again I will try without the comms cable and see what is the behavior.

 I think I have the right cable, I had our in house tech guy make me the Type B cable needed for the Pylon, and all the other stuff (Battery information etc) seems to be correct.

Maybe I should buy a pre-made cable just in case, and test it?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, PJJ said:

But yeah, in my case if the Venus isn't powered up before the rest of the system, the Pylon goes into alarm state,

Does it alarm only if and when the Venus powers up? In that case, I'd suspect a pre-charge problem.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2019/01/15 at 11:48 PM, Coulomb said:

Does it alarm only if and when the Venus powers up? In that case, I'd suspect a pre-charge problem.

It only errors when the Venus is not on.

If the Venus is powered on, it starts with no alarms.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, PJJ said:

It only errors when the Venus is not on.

So just as a data point... if you unplug the can bus cable and then turn the battery on... does it error? I feel like one should rule that in (or out). Because if the Venus-GX has to be already on at the time (chicken and egg issue), then how would the battery know about it? No comms is sent TO the battery from the Venus, so it must know this merely because the can cable is plugged in.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2019/01/18 at 11:25 PM, plonkster said:

So just as a data point... if you unplug the can bus cable and then turn the battery on... does it error? I feel like one should rule that in (or out). Because if the Venus-GX has to be already on at the time (chicken and egg issue), then how would the battery know about it? No comms is sent TO the battery from the Venus, so it must know this merely because the can cable is plugged in.

Ok I tested it, so here is our next data point:

Even with the CAN cable disconnected, it still goes into alarm/error mode.

If I plug the CAN back in again, I still get alarm mode, but if I start the Pylontech up while the Venus still has some power left in its caps it starts up nicely.

So there is definitely something that the Pylontech is either requesting from the Venus or expecting from the Venus, and if it doesn't get it, boom error.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

26 minutes ago, PJJ said:

So there is definitely something that the Pylontech is either requesting from the Venus or expecting from the Venus, and if it doesn't get it, boom error.

As far as I know, there is no communication TO the BMS. The BMS broadcasts all the information at regular intervals and the software merely picks up on the bits it is interested in.

I should have asked you to also take the can-bus terminator and snap it directly into the battery while the venus is disconnected, just to check if it is complaining about an unterminated canbus... but that is a really long shot. That would not explain why it won't work when the Venus is off (as it is still terminated).

Completely stumped... never seen anything like it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...

Sounds totally like a pre-charge issue to me. I know that 1 x Pylontech US2000 won't start a Mutiplus 48/3000 without pre-charge, so there's a good chance that 1 x US3000 wouldn't start a Multiplus 48/5000 without pre-charge.

It's not hard to rig up a pre-charge circuit. I used, I think, 2 x 10 Ohm, 10W ceramic resistors in parallel to give 5 Ohm, 20W. I then connected them in the positive line of a secondary power supply to the multi (I used 4mm^2 solar cable) and ran this through a 25A double pole DC breaker (the pre-charge switch). Just turn the pre-charge switch on a few seconds before closing the main battery fuse/switch ...and remember to then turn the pre-charge off again!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 months later...

@PJJ, I learned something today that might be relevant to this thread. There is a KeepAlive message that Venus has to send to the battery. The CAN-ID is 0x305. If it doesn't receive that every 10 seconds, the idea is that the battery should shut down. That might have something to do with it. Maybe the Venus-GX takes too long to boot?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, plonkster said:

@PJJ, I learned something today that might be relevant to this thread. There is a KeepAlive message that Venus has to send to the battery. The CAN-ID is 0x305. If it doesn't receive that every 10 seconds, the idea is that the battery should shut down. That might have something to do with it. Maybe the Venus-GX takes too long to boot?

Thanks @plonkster That makes perfect sense, if I think about it, because if I give the Venus just a slight headstart with booting up it has enough time to send that message.

I just find it funny that I was the only (or perhaps a few others) guy reporting this issue?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hmm, that's interesting...

I've installed 4x US3000 couple of weeks ago. There's NO data communication cable used in this setup and they are running perfectly. Power on all the bricks, press the start button on the first-one and that's it. Cycled with 100A currents every day.

Is it possible that some older firmware versions (January) required the KeepAlive message on CAN, while the later FW (March) does not?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

58 minutes ago, Youda said:

There's NO data communication cable used in this setup and they are running perfectly.

As I understand it, it works like this: When you send a 0x305 on the canbus, that wakes up the BMS and lets it know that there is an inverter in the system. With some batteries the inverter can even tell the battery some important things (eg the ripple current or discharge current) so the BMS can make better estimations. From this point onwards the battery expects to receive a periodic (every ten seconds) 0x305 or it will shut down.

If you never ping it in the first place, you don't have to continue pinging it.

58 minutes ago, Youda said:

Is it possible that some older firmware versions (January) required the KeepAlive message on CAN, while the later FW (March) does not?

Yes. That would be my guess. Or it is a dip-switch setting or something.

Edited by plonkster
Link to comment
Share on other sites

45 minutes ago, SilverNodashi said:

So, could you resolve the problem? 

Scroll up... 🙂

He has a workaround. He quickly turns the batteries off and on while the Venus device is booting. There is enough power left in the capacitors on the DC bus for the Venus device to continue booting, but the battery starts a new "timeout" cycle and so the Venus finishes booting and sends a KeepAlive within the new time frame.

It would be interesting to actually time it. My prediction is that it switches off in a multiple of 10 seconds.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2019/04/18 at 5:09 PM, plonkster said:

Scroll up... 🙂

He has a workaround. He quickly turns the batteries off and on while the Venus device is booting. There is enough power left in the capacitors on the DC bus for the Venus device to continue booting, but the battery starts a new "timeout" cycle and so the Venus finishes booting and sends a KeepAlive within the new time frame.

It would be interesting to actually time it. My prediction is that it switches off in a multiple of 10 seconds.

I saw that, hence asking if the problem was perhaps resolved on a more permanent basis. But, as you say you never saw this before so perhaps it's something unique to his equipment

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...